8mm Forum: Are they still making for brandnew stuff?

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 05, 2005, 02:38 PM:

Hi all,
I am quite reluctant to drop this question in 16mm forum, since I don't belong to this gauge.

My question is, are there still brandnew 16mm (blockbuster films) being released at this time?.

If there, who are still releasing it?

Are 16mm releases intended for home use too or for other (commercial) purposses?

This is just to compare that 8mm maniacs are still lucky with the release some brandew titles.

thanks,

[ December 05, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on December 05, 2005, 05:23 PM:

Hi Winbert,

what I have heared is, that here in Germany are no 16mm releases since 2000/01.

Andreas

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 05, 2005, 06:09 PM:

Andreas,

So no in German.

But if I may ask, before 2000, what was the aim releasing 16mm? was that similar to our hobby in collecting 8mm, i.e home use only or more for commercial purposses, if "yes" what is that?

thanks

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 05, 2005, 06:42 PM:

Swank, a USA film library, have a 16mm division and their web pages indicate that the following have been released on 16mm fairly recently:

THE 40 YEAR OLD VIRGIN R
MARCH OF THE PENGUINS G
VALIANT G
BEWITCHED PG-13
CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY PG
MADAGASCAR PG
BATMAN BEGINS PG-13
WAR OF THE WORLDS (2005) PG-13
THE DUKES OF HAZZARD PG-13
COLLATERAL R
THE TERMINAL PG-13
THE VILLAGE PG-13
THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE R
ANCHORMAN PG-13
THE BOURNE SUPREMACY PG-13
SHREK 2 PG
FAHRENHEIT 911 R
WHITE CHICKS PG-13
SPIDER-MAN 2 PG-13
KILL BILL: VOLUME 2 R
VAN HELSING PG-13
TROY R
HARRY POTTER AND THE PRISONER OF AZKABAN PG
HOME ON THE RANGE PG
SCOOBY DOO 2 PG
TEACHER'S PET PG
THE LAST SAMURAI R
BIG FISH PG-13
PETER PAN PG
CHARLIE'S ANGELS: FULL THROTTLE PG-13
AGAINST THE ROPES PG-13
ALONG CAME POLLY PG-13
MIRACLE PG
THE PERFECT SCORE PG-13
50 FIRST DATES PG-13
SKY CAPTAIN AND THE WORLD OF TOMORROW PG
BRIDGET JONES: THE EDGE OF REASON PG-13
SHARK TALE PG
OCEAN'S TWELVE PG-13
NATIONAL TREASURE PG
TEAM AMERICA:WORLD POLICE R
MEET THE FOCKERS PG-13
LEMONY SNICKET'S SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS PG
FINDING NEVERLAND PG
IN GOOD COMPANY PG-13
RACING STRIPES PG
THE AVIATOR PG-13
HITCH PG-13
COLD MOUNTAIN R

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on December 06, 2005, 01:06 PM:

The Swank titles are available for rental only (usually at pretty steep prices and often with a cut of the ticket sales).

They market to film societies and colleges and universities.

It would be interesting to see one of these prints physically and see if they are reductions from a 35mm negative or made contact from a 16mm internegative. Since there is no market in the US for 16mm television prints or Armed Forces, there may be as few as a dozen 16mm prints made of a title at this time.

And they are strictly for commercial use and the studios are keeping a close eye on desctruction of current prints (no more bandsaw prints on ebay).

John

Posted by Eberhard Nuffer (Member # 410) on December 07, 2005, 05:38 PM:

Andreas,

I am happy to report that there are still new 16mm releases in Germany. Whereas the last American blockbuster I know about to be printed in 16mm here was "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (2001), new European (mostly German)titles are constantly added to the rental libraries of the BJF (Bundesverband Jugend und Film) as well as the Goethe Institut. The BJF offers a couple of new German and Scandinavian children's films like "Das fliegende Klassenzimmer" (2002), or the animated feature "Lauras Stern" (2003/2004). The Goethe Institut - due to it's determination - has released commercially successful German movies like "Good bye Lenin" (2003) and "Das Wunder von Bern" (2003) as well as so-called German "Arthouse movies" like "Schultze Gets the Blues" (2003), "Die Spielwütigen" (2003), "Scherbentanz" (2002), "Lichter" (2003) or the documentary "Das Netz" (2004) by Lutz Dammbeck. Unfortunaly, all Goethe Institut movies are for use outside of Germany only [Frown]

Eberhard

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 10, 2005, 11:26 PM:

Thanks for all replies.

From there it can be said that 16mm films are mainly used for library and educational mean. It is true that some of Goethe (and also Alliance Francais) still use 16mm in their theatres, but of course they only show films from their respective countries. So...no Hollywood blockbusters.

Sorry to continue the 16mm's questions here, if 35 mm are now quite protected by the studios (they will destroy if no longer used), did this also happen to 16mm? Any idea what is sort of price for brandnew full feature in 16mm for a blockbuster title?

thanks,

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 11, 2005, 11:07 AM:

Winbert,
Not sure what you are saying here - the list I put up shows that some blockbusters are still being printed on 16mm in the USA, albeit probably in small quantities. They are for libraries, but it seems doubtful whether 16mm prints have been used for theatrical release anywhere for some time, although it's possible that it might happen in a country like India.
If you are thinking of 16mm prints of modern features being produced for sale, it's not happening, but it never did happen (at least legally).
I couldn't say what the cost price of printing a feature is, but it must be a lot - I heard a while back that in view of the small quantities, it might be cheaper to print on 35mm! You can get some idea via the dealers selling new prints on 16mm, e.g. trailers from Robbies Reels tend to be around $40 and a one reeler from Derann is around £60 and a 1,300' reel of Race Night films is £300. If Derann were offering features, I expect one lasting 90 mins would be in the region of £850. I'm sure they would produce 16mm prints of any of their releases, if the demand justified costs involved, but I don't think it will happen with any feature.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 11, 2005, 04:17 PM:

John's detail is a good one.

When I was in college, between 1975-79, we rented some films from Swank.
Other companies were Films Inc., United Artists / Warner Bros. Kit Parker etc.

All of the new release prints from these companies were gorgeous. Some of the classic L&H prints were excellent. However, when a print became 'library' condition, they would tell us that it was not available any longer.

Scope features were the most difficult to focus. The focus would pop from scene to scene. Shampoo, was a notorious Swank release that drove us crazy.

Films Inc's Scope releases were a slightly improved over Swanks, but still difficult to focus. Papillion was excruciating to watch and focus.

The Disney features were only available for a limited time, and then they were pulled from the catalog.

At the time, the rental fees were based on a flat rate versus if any fee was charged at the gate.
If there was a separate admission, we were supposed to pay the percentage of the profit, if the profits exceeded a required amount of the flat rental fee.

One year, a husband & wife team were hired either by Swank or a Hollywood company for a surprise pop-in audit, for the amount at the gate.

Michael

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on March 21, 2009, 05:27 PM:

Swank seem to still be going and list 'Ironman' on 16mm! Such a shame to think these new prints' fate is the bandsaw...

New on 16mm: CHC has 'The Mummy' the Boris Karloff one, but I believe it comes out at £450...

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 22, 2009, 12:11 AM:

Swanks still offer 16mm prints for hire but what caused you to think that 'Ironman' (if it's the 2008 film) is available? A thread on the 16mm Forum quoted correspondence in which they confirmed that 'Cars' was the last 16mm film that they added to their library. It seems doubtful whether there's a 16mm library anywhere in the world still adding new titles.

At today's prices, £450 seems very reasonable for a new 16mm feature!

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on March 22, 2009, 04:19 AM:

RE: The Mummy

Does anybody know the source? Do CHC have a decent 35 negative or is it a dupe from 16mm?

-Mike

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on March 22, 2009, 06:35 AM:

O Ye of little faith:

http://college.swankmp.com/pks_activetitlelist.asp?mode=top200

NARNIA, TRANSFORMERS... It is possible I'm reading it wrongly, but that is what it looks like.

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 22, 2009, 08:08 AM:

http://www.swank.com/other/16mmrelease.html [Roll Eyes]

Actually, does anyone know if films are distributed on 16 mm in the US anymore? I think there were some small movie theatres where 16mm with DTS sound was used some years ago. I guess video projection has wiped that out by now. [Confused]

Oh, and I agree 16mm would be probably even more expensive than 35 if you were to strike only a few prints.

Cheers
Lars

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on March 22, 2009, 12:22 PM:

I know there was a demonstration of 16mm with DTS (actually a time code recorded on the 16mm optical track which controlled a regulat DTS CD) but I don't know of any commercial installation or any commercial title. If someone has a 16mm print that just has a "buzz" on the optical track, then there may indeed by wandering DTS prints.

There are only a few 16mm prints on the Swank list now, they are still very active in 35mm and DVD. Very few of the customers that they served with 16mm still have 16mm projection equipment.

John

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 22, 2009, 01:02 PM:

Steven - As indicated by the list Lars provided a link to, I'm afraid all the most recent titles on the list you saw would only be available on 35mm and/or DVD. This also reveals that even the libraries that still offer 16mm often make it difficult to establish which titles are on 16mm, even if (as in the case of 'Cars') we know that they are.

I recall a thread on the 16mm Forum about 8 years ago in which a US member was convinced that high quality 16mm prints were being used in some shopping mall cinemas, but I was unable to find conclusive proof of this. What is certain, though, is that the quality of modern 16mm prints (as can be seen via trailers - NOT produced for sale - that sometimes turn up on eBay) can be so good that no one would have considered the picture quality inadequate, so long as the picture was in the right format.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on March 23, 2009, 05:32 AM:

Yes, I went from the 16mm page to '100 top movies' and assumed they were all 16mm. Perhaps not. I certainly have trailers from the early 2000s ( courtesy of another board member ) and the quality is very good. 'Spiderman 2' was recently on eBay US in widescreen. So there are prints of this recent period.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on March 28, 2009, 02:21 AM:

quote:
I recall a thread on the 16mm Forum about 8 years ago in which a US member was convinced that high quality 16mm prints were being used in some shopping mall cinemas, but I was unable to find conclusive proof of this.

This was something the Navy did and AMC was testing years ago, but it never panned out. They even had a stereo optical projector for it. Those projectors ended up at ICECO in Florida.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on March 29, 2009, 04:12 AM:

Amalgamated Movies here in Australia has a very large Columbia catalogue of 16mm non-theatrical product. Titles from many years including Bewitched, which was a 2005 release. There may be even more recent films on 16mm but I only had a quick look.

David

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 29, 2009, 05:39 AM:

I found this:

http://www.amalgamatedmovies.com/catalogue.php?page=1&search=&sort=16mm&rating=All

Hundreds of titles in 16mm. "3.10 To Yuma" can´t be even two years old, or is it? [Roll Eyes]

Cheers
Lars

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on March 29, 2009, 07:10 AM:

'3.10 To Yuma' is 2007!

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on March 29, 2009, 03:52 PM:

Well, unless it was the 1957 original, which certainly would have a 16mm version.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 30, 2009, 11:44 PM:

I have sent an email to amalgamated in Australia regarding thier collection and it is CONFIRMEDD that they have new releases in their collection in 16mm that includes 3.10 to Yuma (2007). And this is our conversation (I didn't cover up her email, since the email is taken from open source, i.e their website. So you can in touch with her directly, if you are interested):

quote:

Dear Winbert,

As the movie is listed on the catalogue as 16mm then it is available in this format.

Regards
Lorraine
Lorraine Paton
Amalgamated Movies Non-Theatrical Film Distributors
9 Paterson Avenue, Kingsgrove, 2208
Phone: (02) 9554-5990
Mobile : 0425293030
Email: lorrainepaton1@bigpond.com
Website: www.amalgamatedmovies.com

quote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Winbert Hutahaean " <winbert@xxx>
To: "LorrainePaton " <lorrainepaton1@bigpond.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: [Amalgamated Website Query] 16mm films

>>>>We do have 16mm prints in our library.

Dear Lorraine,
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I knew you have 16mm prints in our library.I just want to get your confirmation that your library include those new releases like 3.10 Yuma (2007). Is that right? Or is that film only available on DVD?.

thanks,
Winbert

-----Original Message-----
From: LorrainePaton <lorrainepaton1@bigpond.com>
Sent: 3/30/2009 11:28:42 AM
To: Winbert Hutahaean <winbert@xxxx>
Subject: Re: [Amalgamated Website Query] 16mm films

Dear Winbert,
We do have 16mm prints in our library.

Regards
Lorraine
Lorraine Paton
Amalgamated Movies Non-Theatrical Film Distributors
9 Paterson Avenue, Kingsgrove, 2208
Phone: (02) 9554-5990
Mobile : 0425293030
Email: lorrainepaton1@bigpond.com
Website: www.amalgamatedmovies.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Winbert Hutahaean
To: nsw@amalgamatedmovies.com
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:44 AM
Subject: [Amalgamated Website Query] 16mm films

Dear Sir/Mam,
I am doing search on your 16mm catalog and find there are a lot new movies in that format, that includes "3.10 to Yuma" which was released in 2007.

If I may ask, is your catalog corret to list those 2005-2007 releases in 16mm format? as far as I knew this format has died in 2004.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

regards,
Winbert Hutahaean

Cheers, and hope that will pump your hunting spirit up. Because it means that the chance is always there my friend [Cool]

regards,

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on March 31, 2009, 01:11 AM:

That´s good news! [Smile]

Cheers
Lars

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on March 31, 2009, 01:27 PM:

If would be very interesting to see a clip from one of these prints to determine if they are being produced from a 16mm internegative or reduction printed from a 35mm internegative.

In the good old days, 16mm prints were made from a 16mm internegative and a 16mm A-wind negative optical sound track. But you need to make 20 to 30 prints to offset the cost of those elements.

My guess would be that these prints are 100 per cent reductions (that means both the picture and sound track are reductions) from 35mm negatives. While this produces as excellent picture, the sound track suffers on two levels. One the exposure and cross-modulation test for the 35mm print don't work well through reduction resulting in fill in or bleed on the track image and two the 16mm tracks are recorded to match the specs of 16mm optics and reproducers. The 35mm track reduced looses high frequency since the lenses don't translate all the detail when reduced. (Optical tracks have to be reduced with a continous slit-scan reduction system where as picture in 16mm are usually step printed. The track printing is similar to the way Super8 prints are produced from 16mm negatives).

In any event, if these are indeed reductions, I would think fewer than 10 or 15 prints are produced for those special and issolated markets.

John

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 31, 2009, 04:42 PM:

Ah, but tisn't like the old 8mm days - We have Derann, but whom else? Looking bback, the 60's and 70's were peak times - The generation today can imagine, while we will always dream...Shorty

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 31, 2009, 05:51 PM:

Let us not forget Classic Home Cinema as well Joe ...

The German film labs releasing those great features, (though bloody expensive!)

... and, if I can seal the deal, the reel of animated TV commercials, (200ft). In fact, I already have a second reel of vintage color animated commercials. I have reel lucky to find unfaded examples of mid sixties on up cereal commercials.

Posted by James E. Stubbs (Member # 817) on March 31, 2009, 11:41 PM:

Other than a camera format I would say, sadly that 16mm is a dieing and dead format. There's simply no reason to print 16mm much any more as 35mm equipment for even very small theatrical use is plentiful. There are several new old cinemas here in Portland Oregon and although they only seat 50, they are all 35mm using masked WS prints. If you have the spot and can lay out the money for a 35mm projector, getting a hold of a 35mm print is likely cheaper and easier. The New cines like Living Room Theaters and Cinetopia are all Digital.

The military AFIK has and is divesting itself of all it's 16mm gear in favor of easier to use & maintain and cheaper in the long run, digital projectors. I purchased a brand new 16mm Singer Telex projector US military surplus. The same outfit selling them was also selling brand new B&H 16mm projectors. Think about it from an expense and ease of use standpoint. A decent much smaller, lighter, less maintenance than 16mm 1080P digital projector using Blue Ray discs which cost a fraction to manufacture mail than a 16mm print, can be had for $900. The bulbs last for thousands of hours then can be replaced for $200. Or if the unit is used up, just toss it and replace it. A digital projector Blue Ray unit etc is both far more portable and easier to put into a permanent installation anywhere hanging from a ceiling, or in a simple cabinet requiring no threading, set up etc.

Now that I've spoken so much balderdash... LONG LIVE FILM!!! I love my super 8 and 16mm films. They will always look better than anything digital! The demise of 16mm prints is only one step in the film studios plan to have complete control of all theatrical play of films by going to digital. Sony is even supplying the projectors. If you've ever seen a film digital in a good sized cine you know it looks like absolute SHYTE!!!! Whenever I've been forced to look at such garbage I tell the cine owner about it and ask that they stick to film. The bottom line is that if we're not vocal about our great disdain of all things digital, it will happen so fast we won't know what hit us. The best thing you can do is support small independently owned movie houses using film. They're not likely to go digital any time soon.
Cheers,
Jaems E.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 01, 2009, 12:19 AM:

James ...

I do truly appreciate your frustration, but if there is a cheaper way of bringing the films to the cinema, (pretty soon now, we'll have to call them the "digema") they'll settle for that, and the average audience is so clueless about the image that they are seeing, (not knowing film from the digital image, except for the occasional scratch), that they couldn't care less.

In fact, they may even praise they're home cinema equipment.

Why, because it looks just as good as what they saw at the DIGEMA, no s**t sherlock, they were both digital!!

pathetic!

Long Live FILM!

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on April 01, 2009, 06:07 AM:

Nix on Digema, and on the word! We will never have to call digital cinemas anything but CINEMAS if we chose because 'cine' derives from 'kine', kinetic, etc, meaning movement. Likewise with 'video'. You can have video photography if you want. 'Photo' derives from 'light' so there. A small victory, perhaps.

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