8mm Forum: Blackhawk's Bohemian Girl (L&H)

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Posted by Norman Fisher (Member # 481) on September 03, 2006, 11:32 AM:

Not long ago picked up this Blackhawk print 4x400 in Super 8 sound on Ebay for $45.00. I was the only bidder. Interestingly enough, underneath the 4 reels in the box was the original Blackhawk invoice, and proof of purchase. As well as the Credit Card receipt of the gentleman's order! He paid $69.99 for the print and this was dated 10/27/75. It brought back many memories for me, as this was around the time I was originally purchasing from Blackhawk myself. (74-79) Anyway, my question is for other members of the board that have this print from Blackhawk. The first 3 reels look great, and the sound is nice and clear. However the 4th reel is another story. The print turns VERY DARK, sometimes flashing bright and dark, and then completely going black, so much so you can't see anything going on the screen. It's absolute pitch black. I was very surprised the original purchaser did not complain and send it back. I know it did not turn this way over the years. I have never heard of a print turning black with age. And it's only in the 4th reel. Does anyone else have a problem with this film? I am glad I didn't pay much more for this on Ebay as the seller never disclosed the 4th reel was unwatchable. Did I just get a bad print or is this Blackhawk's normal practice for this title?

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on September 03, 2006, 12:24 PM:

Hi Norman,

As this topic was not a review of this film I have moved it to this, the 8mm forum.

Being in the 8mm forum I think you will get more replies to the post.

Hope you didnt mind.

I have to say that I cant imagine BlackHawk releasing a print like this. I think it must have been a fault.

Kev.

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on September 03, 2006, 03:26 PM:

Norman

All I can think of is that this one slipped through the Blackhawk quality control. It sounds like the lab made a drastic error with the contrast control.

Knowing the high quality of Blackhawk, my bet is on the mass print run. The print is priced correctly for a 1970's feature, so that rules out this print being a reject sale

Just out of curiosity, have you given the print a good clean yet?

Craig

Posted by Norman Fisher (Member # 481) on September 03, 2006, 04:31 PM:

Thanks for moving the post Kevin..

Craig: Yes I did clean it with Filmrenew, and it's still the same. I have never had luck with L&H features from Blackhawk. I purchased OUR RELATIONS in 1975, and the first reel had sound dropouts, so I returned for exchange. (Which they were always great about doing) My print of WAY OUT WEST I bought in 1976 is very fuzzy, and the faces are almost washed out in white----all except the last reel which is absolutely perfect.I have heard several complaints about the quality of WOW from Blackhawk, so it's probably like that on most of the prints. Then last year I got BLOCKHEADS from Ebay, and the 3rd reel on that one is not as bright in contrast as the first two. It's very dim, but not as bad as THE BOHEMIAN GIRL, which you can't even see the faces, or even the body movements! I think Blackhawk had major issues with the L&H features back in the day. The quality of the shorts they sold were much better. I wonder how the Walton L&H features compared to the Blackhawk versions?

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on September 03, 2006, 05:35 PM:

I have a few Blackhawks with no probelms. I think you may just have been unlucky with these titles.

My copy of "The Music Box" is superb and as good a quality as the 16mm version I once owned. Way Out West is another great title and again its great. Like most distributors of the time there were some duff prints which slipped through and I can only say that maybe you should look out for another copy.

Kev.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on September 03, 2006, 09:06 PM:

Norman,

Kev is correct.
The copy which you own
was a mis-print.

I have The Bohemian Girl,
and it does not black-out
in reel four.
However, it has other problems
with sporadic softness in the
long shots.

Bohemian Girl at an
original price of $69.00
seems more in line with the
pricing that was available
for 'answer prints.'
Which is not to say that
it may have been one of
Blackhawks sale items.

If I recall correctly,
a three reeler as Blotto,
originaly sold for $69.00.

Sound 2 reel shorts were priced
between $24.00 to $27.00.

Depending on the length,
four reel features in
Super 8 sold for about
$104.00 - $111.00
Pardon Us and Saps at Sea
were shorter in length.
Bohemian Girl was one of the
longer features at 70 minutes,
and Swiss Miss at 72 minutes.
Our Relations was about 74 minutes.

Michael

Posted by Norman Fisher (Member # 481) on September 04, 2006, 12:44 AM:

Michael, I agree with Kevin and it's indeed a defective print. Not sure about it being an 'answer print' though. As to the original prices, keep in mind this was 1975 when the print was originally purchased, as indicated on the invoice found at the bottom of the box under the reels. Blackhawk's prices were still fairly reasonable at that time. I saved many of my Blackhawk catalogs from the early 70's, and I found this particular title featured in the December 1975 issue as part of the 20% off Comedy sale. BOHEMIAN GIRL originally sold for $86.98 at this time, but the special sale made it $68.88, which fits in at the same time this chap I bought it from on Ebay purchased his print. A 16mm print of the same title could be had for $143.00, marked down from $179.00! Only wish I had a scanner, I could photo copy the ad.
BLOTTO is listed in the DECEMBER 1975 catalog at the regular price of $49.98. The 2 reeler talkies go for $32.98. The $69.99 you mentioned for BLOTTO sounds more like their post 1977 pricing. Blackhawk's prices increased dramatically over the next few years, and I was forced to purchase less and less films from them as a result due to limited funds at the time.

Again, I am surprised this guy never returned such a defective print. This may sound like a stupid question, but didn't Blackhawk spot check the films before sending them out?

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on September 04, 2006, 01:15 AM:

quote:
Which is not to say that
it may have been one of
Blackhawks sale items.

I figured it could have also been
a sale item too.
Thanks for confirming
the Blotto pricing in 1975.

I was told that the best prints
were from some negs in 1979.

But I can only see that in 16mm
prints and not in the 8mm line,
because it is easier to check the
Kodak date code on the sprocket side of
the 16mm film stock.

I had purchased used Blackhawk copies of
Chickens Come Home, One Good Turn,
and Any Old Port. These prints are
stunning and as close to 35mm quality
that I have ever seen in a
Super 8 Sound Blackhawk release.

As I mentioned in an earlier post,
the Standard 8mm silent Blackhawk
material rivaled the 16mm releases

I would even compare it to Ken Films
The Devils Brother, and find that these
are if not equivalent, but even superior
to the Devil's Brother in contrast,
due to the high silver content in
the stock.

It seemed that Blackhawk at times
produced awful 8mm dupes from
their own material, which
yielded disappointing results.

I was informed that when it was
necessary, they even
scored the tracks for the 8mm sound
released from 16mm optical sound
prints.

Other than that, I also happen to
own a Standard 8mm sound print of:
On the Wrong Trek.
If it were not for the one sided
magnetic track, the picture would be
practically perfect with sharp quality
and rich silver content in the contrast.

Unfortunately, the fourth reel has the
most action and comedy.

Michael

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on September 06, 2006, 08:22 AM:

I'm not so sure that these problems with Blackhawk prints were as rare as some say. Every 8mm print of every Blackhawk Laurel and Hardy feature I bought during the late 60's and into the mid 70's had some sort of problem. Way Out West was soft to the point of hardly being able to see their eyes. Saps at Sea was printed too light with the shipboard scenes being almost a white out. Blockheads was generally way too soft and the second reel had sound dropouts all the way through it. Sons of the Desert was also very dupey looking. After that I stopped buying the features....but had better luck with the shorts. For the most part I found the Blackhawk products highly overrated and was almost always disappointed in the quality....especially the Laurel and Hardy features. I've bought both super 8 and reg 8 versions of the Charley Chase films, Midsummer Mush and the Nickel Nurser.....all four prints looked like they were printed with vaseline on the lens. Never understood why they marketed films of such low quality....while also presenting just razor sharp lovely prints of shorts like Scram....and Going Bye Bye...and on the Wrong Trek.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on September 06, 2006, 02:54 PM:

Gary,

This leads me to believe that the
best quality prints depending upon title,
were manufactured at different times between the 1960's - '70's.
To some collectors, they believe that Blackhawk
made the best, if not overall consistant
quality around 1979, using the best lab, and the
best quality negs.

Blackhawks release of Chase's
- The Nickle Nurser
suffers in quality in the super 8
and 16 prints. They are just too gray in
apperance. It leads me to conclude that
Blackhawk duped the best quality
Film Classics Print and then made
their release copies from it.

You can tell this in looking at
identical prints and the same
inherent properties exist in
side by side comparison prints.

I have an original Film Classics
16mm on Nickle Nurser, and it is
stunning. As you know, all
16mm Film Classics prints are
not always the best quality.
To what I understand, Blackhawk
gained many if not all of thier
material from Film Classics.

The latter 1950's 16mm Film
Classic Releases were made better
than many of the earlier prints
which were struck during the
1940's. What is most curious,
is that these 1950 prints were
made here for Regal Television
and they were dupes, from
The Film Classic Material.
[Confused]

If that is not confusing,
then also here in America, they were duped
again, by Walter Reade, and the Walter
Reade Prints suffer tremendously in quality.
If its not the picture, then it is in the
sound track.

Again the Walter Reade Print of Midnight Patrol
has so-so to poor picture quality, and there
is hiss in the sound track. However the
background LeRoy Reams sound track is more audible
and less mute than what is found in the
Blackhawk and Film Classics Release prints.

I have a Standard 8mm Sound of Sons of the Desert.
It has sharp quality, but the image is gray. (1971)
On the other hand, I have an identical release printed
sometime after 1979, and it has deep
contrast but it lacks the sharpness in picture quality.

Thus, imager quality problems exist
in both formats, when collecting
Laurel and Hardy.

Interestingly, the prints of Going Bye Bye,
are stunning. Likely so, the identical 16 Film Classics
releases, printed on Kodak stock have such deep silver content and
beautiful contrast, that every pore on
Walter Long's tough complexion face is
noticeable. [Eek!]

WOW!

What makes the hobby so interesting,
is that in searching for a print
collectors can go through many
prints until the right one comes
along. I had a friend that went through
'10' 16mm Music Box prints, until the
best one came along.

Michael

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on September 08, 2006, 09:30 AM:

Yes, Michael, it is often a crap shoot on quality. And it's fun when you hit that really good print...and terrible when you spend good money for poor quality. Lately, I've been doing very well with only one really nasty experience in the last three years. Just won on Ebay a 16mm print of the Stooges classic, Violent is the Word for Curly. There had been , I think, three of these offered at basically the same time on ebay....one sold for about 178 dollars ..another for what I remember was 120 dollars. There was a third print offered by a seller who really didn't provide or know much info about the prints he was selling....there were no fancy descriptions...no frame grabs...only a picture of the reel....but showing the original Columbia band on the print, indicating an original . I took a chance and won it for only about 65 dollars..... It arrived and is a honey...no cue marks or splices....no scratches...just a pristine original print....costing less than half of what the others went for. I took a chance on this seller and this time came out very happy indeed.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on September 08, 2006, 11:41 AM:

Hi Mike and all - MEN O WAR seems a bit soft as well and i think this was a sale-item back when, the other shorts are quite excellent really, I find the Std8 sound prints were crystal having been copied from top-dupes and maybe originals - BTW, Mike, let me know on any films - God Bless - Shorty

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on September 08, 2006, 12:12 PM:

My BlackHawks of Way out West and Music Box are really nice. It sounds like things were a bit variable with BlackHawk then. I hear some say that the earlier Std 8mm prints were on the whole superior to the Super 8's!

Kev.

Posted by Norman Fisher (Member # 481) on September 08, 2006, 01:39 PM:

Kevin, Did you purchase WAY OUT WEST second hand from Ebay? My WAY OUT WEST print came from Blackhawk in 1977, and the faces are all washed out. So much so they are pasty white for the first 3 reels. The final reel is superb though so go figure. My similar experiences with all the L&H features was one of the reasons I stopped becoming a regular customer of Blackhawk films in 1978. OUR RELATIONS with sound dropouts...SONS OF THE DESERT with too low a sound with very soft images. BLOCKHEADS with the fourth reel dark. And now 30 years later after my last Blackhawk purchase, I get a bad print of BOHEMIAN GIRL!! [Frown]

What are the odds of this!!?? Didn't new owners come into play with Blackhawk in 1975? Maybe the loss of quality in the product was a result of the ownership change. Either way, I agree the shorts are generally superb quality with few exceptions, but every feature I purchased from them has major issues. Gary kind of confirmed this when he too noted he had similar problems with their feature prints.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on September 08, 2006, 03:21 PM:

Not to belabor the point, but the Laurel and Hardy features and a few Chase shorts were really the only problem I had. The L&H features were relatively recent productions compared to some of the chaplins and Keaton's and Loyds....yet...these older silents had better quality...nicer detail and contrast than the more recent Laurel and Hardy's. I have a few of their Larry Semon silent shorts from 1917 through 1925 that are incredibly good. Too bad Blackhawk could not get decent materials on the L&H's to print from . Also their lab work was variable as has been pointed out before.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on September 08, 2006, 04:39 PM:

Norman, I bought my Way out West from a Dealer here in the UK some years back. I wouldnt say its that washed out and thats using the GS xenon. If your reel 3 is ok it would suggest the original master was probably ok but the washed out look is due to being printed too light on the other reels.

It all sounds like poor QC to me [Frown]

Kev.

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