This is topic full feature vs. digests in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 16, 2007, 08:35 AM:
Hi folks,
derann has released at last an extract of End of days.
Myself I prefer full feature films because this is the form the director designed the movie.
So I spend my money rather for a full feature than f.e. four shorts (80 £ p.piece).
So what do you mean.
Greetings
Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on July 16, 2007, 09:48 AM:
Hi unfortunately Ralf for a super 8 company to make any money on a feature at all is now almost impossible. To just break even is good news!!!!! and such a lot of expense and work etc.
Even the best title will rarely sell 30 odd copies and thats worldwide with the web etc. Without that it would be worse, also concerning uk films the £ is very strong against the dollar so makes it even harder,
If it was not for the history or love of it I think SUPER 8 Would be long gone.
Also most folks in the UK are skint as a rule as our cost of living is going crazy over here.
You have to be realistic for the price of just one modest super 8 feature you can buy a video projector just about with 3 years guarantee with a picture qaulty even £10,000 plus machines could not do long ago.
You have to hand it to Derann on this release well done and I hope it does well.
best Mark.
Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on July 16, 2007, 10:05 AM:
Mark,
I totally agree with your comments.
Derann are spot on by releasing this as a 600ft digest which makes it just about affordable for most of us strapped for cash UK collectors here!!
Who can afford to pay £500+ for a full feature these days?
Cheers Mark W
Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 16, 2007, 10:20 AM:
Hi folks,
a feauture for 500 £ ??? Do whant something like Ben Hur with a length of over three hours???
Master an Commannder wiht around 140 min. cost araound 350 £, so a 90 min feature you would have to pay 275 £ max. See also the Derann cataloge for a hammer feature f.e. This price is the same for three or four 600 ft extracts. And a video projector for 275 £ only in your dreams boys.
Greetings
Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on July 16, 2007, 12:57 PM:
Hi-Ralph
And by the time you add on postage to Germany you will be probably looking at a cost of £400 +!!!
So shall we say for arguements sake that the average cost would be £400 then??
Still big bucks to pay in my opion.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on July 16, 2007, 01:16 PM:
I Ralf yes i was offered a new vp with 6000 hrs lamp and built in tv tuner and great pick for £250 and new lamps £30 each. 1 year gaurantee. But I still love film. I`m entirely with what you are saying for us nuts nothing is as nice as a s8 feature. But its a 90% chance you wont make money these days on a feature release. Sad but true.
Its a shame the negs for the old digests are gone who knows where.
best Mark.
Posted by Uwe Brengel (Member # 286) on July 16, 2007, 02:05 PM:
To Mark W.,
costs for sending a 3x600ft. feature from UK to Germany are nearly 26 £ (UPS delivery). Last year I ordered a brand-new print of "The Reptile" for example. Total price was approximately 300 £.
Where are the folks who like the idea of upcoming brand-new features on polyester stock like we do?
Regards
Uwe ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on July 16, 2007, 02:41 PM:
Uwe,
Thanx for confirming the price for shipping,so I am indeed correct in saying that 4 x 600ft would cost around £50 to ship then?
We all love the prospect of a brand new feature on Poly stock but these days as Mark says its just not economical to print a feature when the dealer will only sell 10 copies or so.
Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on July 16, 2007, 03:48 PM:
Generally I prefer digests these days as features are so high and you have to pay the money up front. With digests I can buy one every six months or when I feel like it, and I get the best bits of the film.
The problem I have with some of deranns recent features is that they are not titles I would watch again and again and again. Theres no point in buying a £300 feature and only watching it once a year, Id rather have the DVD, and the space on my shelf.
I would however pay for a brand new print of Saturday night Fever, but I cant see this ever being made again as older prints are still out there. (Mine has faded but is not too bad but I would love a brand new print on LPP thats razor sharp).
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 16, 2007, 04:51 PM:
I think there's a little too much doom and gloom about features here. I rcall hearing at some point that 30 prints of 'Master and Commander' had been sold. And the Royal Mail is expensive but not THAT expensive; I recall selling a full length feature (about 90 mins) to someone in the USA a while back and airmail was about £15. And Mark, if you think the cost of living is expensive here (which I'm not disputing), imagine if you were a US collector spending $2 for every £1!
Posted by Trevor Adams (Member # 42) on July 16, 2007, 05:00 PM:
Adrian,or a NZer who must pay $3 for every quid!We will be in central London for a month(Sept)-that will set back the old VISA somewhat! Trev
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 16, 2007, 05:03 PM:
One of the things I like about Super8 is the digests, a well edited film is often better than the feature, just imagine a film like eg the latest "Titanic" as a 50min version with all the padding left out, I think it would be impressive, not everyone can afford full features, ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
its a lot of money tied up just for the occasional screening, of course there are exceptions, one example of the use of digests are the "Fantasia" extracts you may not want to watch the full feature, but an extract carefully added, say onto a 1200ft reel with other stuff can add to make a more interesting programme. There are plenty of other examples, and these days of DVD and video projectors its just not economic to produce full length features, so as they say ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
its better to have a slice of the cake than none at all. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Graham.
Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on July 16, 2007, 05:10 PM:
Adrian,
Even if a dealer managed to sell 30 prints they are not going to be able to make a lot of profit out of it,so thats basically it,if they sold more features and turned a better profit then we would probably see more feature releases in the pipeline,the hard cold facts of the matter is that they don't.
Yes,the US collectors have my deepest sympathy at the moment due to the weak USD against the £ at present.
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 16, 2007, 07:08 PM:
I agree that there can't be much money to be made selling features, but that's been the case for some time. However, at least from Classic's/Derann's point of view, there might be a PR element of giving collectors a boost and encouraging people to think that Super 8 is still alive. At least now that features are such a rarity, people don't have the 80s/90s problem of thinking "which can I afford to buy next"!
I'm prepared to bet any Forum member £2 that there will be at least one new Super 8 feature released by 2010!
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 16, 2007, 10:41 PM:
Adrian
I hope you are right, I would also like to see Super8 features available in the future for those that can afford it, the thing is, there has to be sufficient "up front" demand which, not only covers the costs "which must be huge" but for firms like Derann, they have to make a reasonable profit out of it as well. There is less financial risks with digests or shorts, but even here care has to be taken to release films that have a more general appeal and I stress this word "repeatability" to get the numbers, its not all "doom and gloom" for Super8, far from it, but times have changed.
Graham.
Posted by Uwe Brengel (Member # 286) on July 17, 2007, 02:39 AM:
Hi, what do you all think about a new (Derann?) feature, released in 3 x 600' parts? There are some films like "Terminator 3" which only have around 90 mins length. This should be affordable for all Super 8 fans, also for those who like edited versions.
U. Brengel
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on July 17, 2007, 02:52 AM:
Uwe,
I think that would be a great idea,as most modern feature films tend to be overlong these days like DIE HARD 4.0,TRANSFORMERS etc.
I,m sure a little tightening up in the editing room would improve them no end!
Adrian-I doubt if you will find many takers on your £2 bet which is a great thing,afterall we are all very positive about future feature release's aren's we??
Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 17, 2007, 04:05 AM:
I think a good option is to realise a 90 min feature (f.e. Jurassic Park III) for the guys who like the complete film and offer the parts separately. So the friends of shorts and digests can buy the part of the film they like.
What do you think about this??
Naturally it must be a title for all collectors. So maybe derann could realise another parts from End of days, so the collector have the chance to complete the film.
Graham there is still the 6 Month Interest Free Credit Scheme!
Greetings Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 17, 2007, 06:00 AM:
Hmmm... Ralf, they would still have the cost of producing negatives for each reel though and run the risk of not selling particular parts.
But I appreciate what you are saying and think for the hobby to remain healthy that releasing the odd carefully selected feature is desirable if pre-interest is sufficient. That way collectors trade used films to buy the new release and the market of used films as well as new films continues to exist.
Other problem of course (aside from a distributor actually making any money on a release) is finding master material...
Even though I wouldn't have gone for "Master & Commander" even if I had the cash spare I think it was priced extremely generously considering the running time and think it proved that there is some market out there for new features, which is good news for us all I think.
I can't even think how Derann or Classic Home Cinema make any money on features, I'm just glad they continue to try.
Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 17, 2007, 06:48 AM:
Rob,
the company have the cost also of producing negatives for each digest and the risk to make a section of the film of what the costumers want. F.e. Episode I (Pod Race): I know some collectors who say it was the wrong part of the film. In there opinion the last battle between the two jediknights and darth maul would be the better choise. So they have the risk that some people dont order the extract, because they dont like the section.
And the master material I thing was also no problem. I cant imagine the owner of the master material has only the last action scene of End of Days.
I thing the company has to explore in preposition how many want the full feature, so they can produce all parts of the movie (f.e. 3x600ft) for this people and also they can produce odd reel for the costumers who like a part of the movie and there is no editing.
I think this is a way for all.
Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on July 17, 2007, 09:18 AM:
I think realistically the best way to go is that dealers introduce a scheme where they announce a feature may be released and that people then pay %50 to even 100% of the costs up front that are then held in trust by the company, both classic ans derann are established and trusted enough to do this.
Then if enough people subscribe to the print being produced they go ahead. Or refund if not.
Re Master and Commander at £350 I think was actually a kindness on deranns part for an over 2 hours film these days, no-one else could or would produce one for that on bang up to date polyester stock and already recorded in english etc.
As mentioned in other threads there is now apparetnly a film printer that can do from a digital source straight to super 8, if only we had one here in the UK as the horrendous prices for negative masters etc are done away with and the sound master is possibly simpler too. Also also once wondered would be a good way to do proper storyfied digests as well.
But I do think we as collectors should put up first rather than rest on the amazing good will of Derann and Classic.
It alwasy surprised me that in the US S8 faded away so easily not least as theres more cash about and a huge population.
Best wishes Mark.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 17, 2007, 11:12 AM:
There are some newbies out there on the forum, (I could be considered a newbie, having only been back in for three years now), but I believe that most collectors have been around for years ...
and quite frankly, I think the desire for more features is because we just want something new to buy. We are addicts, tho I can think of a lot worse addictions to have.
For instance, I buy an occasional feature and short, (this was one of the rare months when I have bought three features in one month, as the prices were right.), but I'm doing my best to limit myself to one affordable feature per month, partly because of a lack of funds. That, and I must admit, i just like building a collection.
Witrh the size of my collection now, I'm thinking it's about time to invest in a (Gad! Do I dare say it?) A magnectic/optical GS 1200.
(I just know I'm going to get some ribbing on that.)
But we all pretty much have our dream collections (of titles that we really want) and what we do now is collect on the side, just for the sake of expanding our collections.
Posted by Jean-Christophe Deblock (Member # 792) on July 17, 2007, 11:35 AM:
Indeed, some '90 minutes of a feature film should be interesting.
So, what about a 90 minutes digest of "AIRPORT"?...
Jean-Christophe.
Posted by Uwe Brengel (Member # 286) on July 17, 2007, 01:43 PM:
Hi Jean-Christophe, there are also a lot of films which are running about or under 90 mins: "Terminator 3" (would be very nice in Scope), "Jurassic Park 3", "Alien vs. Predator" (also Scope), or Classics like "Hound of the Baskervilles". All these wouldn't come over three 600' parts. A real chance.
I also would buy edited versions of longer films, but not under 60 mins.
U. Brengel
**********
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 17, 2007, 06:14 PM:
I take the point about edited digests potentially pushing up costs, even if the master material can be cut - so I think we would have to hope that a suitably qualified enthusiast would do it because he would be offered a print in return!
I recall that the scope feature release of 'Grease' followed the 200' extract, due to enough collectors expressing demand, so if enough collectors bought the 'End of Days' 600' and then said "I now want the rest", I'm sure Derann would give it serious consideration.
I remember hearing that 'Jurassic Park 3' was probably the last feature that Derek seriously considered releasing. As it would make an excellent release, in view of the quality and length of the film, it would also serve as a nice tribute to Derek, if it ever proved feasible.
Posted by Uwe Brengel (Member # 286) on July 18, 2007, 06:35 AM:
Hi Adrian,
you're right, "Jurassic Park 3" would also be a very nice tribute to Derek and his life's work, he was a "stroke of luck" for Super 8 and for all the collectors world-wide.
So perhaps, we should do a survey to find out who would buy "JP 3" on Super 8. This film only runs approximately 95 minutes, so it shouldn't be too expensive. And perhaps, for all these like-minded people who want to buy 600' versions or stepwise, there could be a possibility to take the feature in three parts. How do you feel about this?
Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 18, 2007, 01:26 PM:
Well Uwe,
I mean Jurassic Park III is a good choice for a feature release on S8. This film also is in scope an could be a great gift for the home cinema and also a tribute to Mr Simmonds.
Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 18, 2007, 01:59 PM:
I think I'd 'put my money where my mouth is' with regard to 'JP3'. It's only 92 mins acccording to the IMDB. Is it really scope, though, as IMDB also says 1.85:1?
Posted by Ralf Hoff (Member # 36) on July 18, 2007, 02:30 PM:
Mmmmhhh... Adrian,
I saw JPIII only one times in the cinema when it started and I mean it was CS. But I' m not shure. What is the format on the DVD, 1:235 or 16:9 ????
On a german filmfair for three years a dealer offered some trailers to JPIII in 35mm in CS, so I believe the film was in CS, but it is no guaranty. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Maybe someone of the other members can help.
Ralf
Cine 8-16
www.celluloidfilm.de
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on July 18, 2007, 03:13 PM:
Ralf, I have a bunch of 35 trailers which are either 1.66 or 1.85, squeezed in CS, in order to be projected with full CS features. So the trailer might not be the right lead to get the exact feature frame ratio.
But indeed, JP3 could be a very nice super 8 release for all the people who crave for a new full feature on the maket (it's my favorite in the series).
Allocine, the french IMDB says it's 2.35.
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 18, 2007, 03:19 PM:
I can understand everything that has been said here about this subject.
However, I personally have never been a fan of digest prints. I happen to have several of the 3 x 400 versions in my collection, my favorite being Gremlins. I mean, it seems like all the slow moving parts are gone, yet what they gave us makes a great story.
I'd much rather spend on a used feature, even if faded in time, and get the entire version than a cut down. Color fade really doesn't bother me. Yeah, sure...it's noticeable when the first image hits the screen. But it's kind of like letterboxing.....after a few minutes, you don't mind it so much.
CG
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on July 18, 2007, 03:19 PM:
I Think Derann do a proper scope 16mm trailer to it but not 100%.
Best Mark.
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 18, 2007, 03:20 PM:
I can understand everything that has been said here about this subject.
However, I personally have never been a fan of digest prints. I happen to have several of the 3 x 400 versions in my collection, my favorite being Gremlins. I mean, it seems like all the slow moving parts are gone, yet what they gave us makes a great story.
I'd much rather spend on a used feature, even if faded in time, and get the entire version than a cut down. Color fade really doesn't bother me. Yeah, sure...it's noticeable when the first image hits the screen. But it's kind of like letterboxing.....after a few minutes, you don't mind it so much.
CG
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 18, 2007, 03:52 PM:
Hi Ralf
Jurassic Park 3 is in 1.85:1 ratio not Scope, from time to time I have come across full Scope 35mm trailers, not masked in any way of films which later turn out to be in Widescreen 1.85:1 JP3 would be a good choice as collectors who are not into Scope films might be interestd in this one. both full feature and a well edited 600ft version, "remember "The Neverending Story" that was well done as a 600footer" would be ideal.
The problem out here is our exchange rate, a feature that might cost say, 200 pound would cost over 600 dollers, a lot of money ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I have bought new features from Derann over the years, but these days its a no, no, from my chief financial adviser, "the wife" I might be able to swing the idea of a 600ft version though.
Graham.
Posted by Uwe Brengel (Member # 286) on July 19, 2007, 09:31 AM:
Hi Graham, In know that Derann is offering a "six month interest free credit chance" for all these "chief financial advisers" all over the world. So you also could pay a new feature in 6 monthly parts.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Andrew Wilson (Member # 538) on July 19, 2007, 03:45 PM:
Yes indeed.That in fact is what i do!.Andy.
Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 20, 2007, 04:36 AM:
I'm not sure that Derann do the split payment scheme outside of the UK as it becomes very difficult to get there money back if the person defaults on the payments etc.
Kev.
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