8mm Forum: Fra Diavolo Value?

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Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on October 31, 2007, 05:20 PM:

What's the value of a MINT Super Eight sound print of Laurel & Hardy In Fra Diavolo"? This is from the original MGM negatives.
Thank's!
--Tom Pennock

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 31, 2007, 05:35 PM:

To be realistic Tom, it all depends on How much a person is willing to pay for it.

Original value (purchase price from original film company) really doesn't count. Take Blackhawk features. A classic Laurel and hardy of "Son's of the Desert" was well over 100.00 dollars, (someone can no doubt state the actual price on this forum).

You will rarely get that.

UNLESS!!!

There were very few prints of a specific title. For instance, I just bought a print of "Close Encounters" scope. I paid 400.00 dollars for it, and that's a lot of money for me. I could actually make even more on it conceivably, depending on who wants it. (I'm not selling, so don't ask, BUT Kevin Faulkner IS!! Let the feeding frenzy begin for the Faulkner print! Unless he already has a buyer.)

Close Encounters was a very low number of prints, (between potentially 15 to 30, but I don't know for sure), and that stands as long as all those prints still exist.

Your print of that particular feature isn't all that common of a print. There are other factors. Which film company released thew print? Blackhawk prints tend to be of better quality than other film compnaies prints. If Blackhawk and, lets say, Walton films both released feature prints of this, which film companies prints are better?

but the biggest factor really is DEMAND!!!

A good example of that are the Derann Disney features. Some still can get a lot of money. I've seen Pinnochio go for close to what it originally sold for. On the other hand, i bought an early Derann print of Snow White, (completel with the two bonus trailers with it), for only 150.00.). From what I've seen, quite a few Derann Disney's really don't get as much as other prints. This is no reflection upon Derann, of course, as these Disney prints are just about as good as Super 8mm can come!

Having said all that, I would say around 100.00, as I don't hear that one come up all that often. Perhaps more ...

depending on demand!

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on October 31, 2007, 05:49 PM:

Hi Osi:

This title was a very limited edition by Red Fox Films. It was co-released with "Bonnie Scotland". From the original negatives. It's RARE and it is 16mm quality. I have been offered this title in 16mm so I don't need two prints. Anyone know how limited this Super Eight print is? I think it was only one of around 50 or less print's struck.

Best, Tom

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 31, 2007, 06:40 PM:

Then you have a print that could sell for well more. yes, as a general rule, Red Fox prints tend to tech a great price!

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on October 31, 2007, 06:59 PM:

I think the reason Disney`s seem to go for less than you think is that they sold so well often in the 100`s and the feature collector market is rapidly contracting as there are fewer hard core collectors now.
A lot of people now seem to go for the interesting short stuff and looks like they are the sellers at CHC and Derann as well now.
You know I have never yet seen one of Deranns disney features projected but some of the disney 200 footers are amazing for the period they were produced.
Best Mark.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on October 31, 2007, 07:04 PM:

I have a copy of Fra and it took me years to get my hands on one....and I really do mean years.
I eventually found a copy through Paul Foster and it cost me about £150 ($300).
It is superb in quality and one that will NEVER leave my collection and yes it's the Red Fox job.

Osi, Close Encounters was 19 prints total.

Kev.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on October 31, 2007, 09:17 PM:

Hi Kev:
Thank's for posting. Ironically $300.00 is indeed what I paid for my print. I am going for a MINT 16mm reduction but will wait before I sell off the Super Eight Red Fox print. I want to make sure the 16mm reduction is good. The seller said it's a print down from pristine 35mm pre-print and the picture and sound are superb. But it's best not to get in a hurry and sell off the Super Eight print until the print's are both compared.
Best, Tom

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 31, 2007, 10:10 PM:

Very wise Tom!

For all you know, that Red Fox print may end up being better than the 16MM print. Did Red Fox do 16Mm prints? If so, it might be from the same negative.

I understand why people sell super 8mm over 16MM, usually to build dollars for expanding thier 16MM. From what I've heard, however, most people who sell thier Super 8's regret it later.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on November 01, 2007, 01:44 AM:

No Red Fox Films did not strike 16mm prints. These two S8 prints (Diavolo & Bonnie Scotland)came in to being around the time home video was coming in. Red Fox aimed for good quality control on these two. I have never watched these titles in 16mm in syndication or otherwise as of yet. Yes, it's best to compare prints. It could very well be possible that more care was indeed taken with the Super Eight features on these titles quality control wise. Especially Fra Diavolo. I remember the ad for these two in Classic Images magazine year's back.
Best, Tom

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on November 01, 2007, 02:00 PM:

Hi Tom - When you come to sell your DIAVOLO, think of me - RED FOX manufactured a first-rate release of both this and SCOTLAND, boxes were keen too - PM me, I have a short-want list you might be able to help me with - Shorty

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on November 02, 2007, 04:44 AM:

Fra Diavolo is one of the nicest black and white prints I have seen. It's got a really nice graduation through out the whole film. The blacks are not clagged up and the highlights arent burnt out. The film is very clean looking too.
My copy is on Black and White Kodak stock and is polyester based.
Definitely a print to look out for.

How many people have ever watched Fra Diavolo I wonder. When I mention this title to other people the chances are they have never heard of it. I have to say that for me it's one of their funniest operetta's and the long wait for a super 8 print was really worth it.

Also known as "Bogus Bandits" and "The Devils Brother"

Kev.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on November 02, 2007, 12:09 PM:

I may be wrong, but isnt Fra Diavlo in public domain? Public domain titles are usually cheaper than licensed titles.

James.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on November 02, 2007, 08:07 PM:

Yes that may be the case with DVD/VHS etc but not on film where there were so few copies released.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 02, 2007, 08:17 PM:

Its a shame no-one releases the lads now as a 400 short for say £40-45 would still sell really well I think.
Kodak did do a super fine grain archive 16mm poly B+W film stock as well so probably would have been available to the labs.
Best Mark.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 02, 2007, 08:53 PM:

That's why I didn't bother to get this title. I know that there are funny moments to it, but I HATE OPERA, in any and all forms! (hisssssss ...)

I did like portions of "Babes in Toyland", but i disliked the musical numbers so much, I cut out all of that and made it a 800ft. version with laurel and Hardy's comedy bits, and even though a good portion of the story was gone, it is still wonderfully good, (just love that "dunking" scene)

It would even work well as a 400ft, with just the boys going off to work and then dealing with a most annoying toy solgier.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on November 03, 2007, 01:37 AM:

Hi Kev:

I have to agree that the Super Eight print of "Fra Diavolo" has superb density and is fantastic. It must rank as the best black and white print in Super Eight. I have that 16mm reduction lined up but not sure how the quality will be or compare. I hate to let my Super Eight print go. Any guess as to how many print's in Super Eight of "Fra Diavolo" are out there? At one time many year's ago I was told fifty.

Best, Tom

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on November 03, 2007, 01:14 PM:

I think the price on FRA DIAVOLO in Super 8 is a bit less than you would think. I purchased my copy about 10 years ago. I think I paid around $200 USD. I recall seeing it and BONNIE SCOTLAND each going for less than that on Ebay within the last year or so. My theory is that once it came out on DVD, the demand for a Super 8 copy dropped. They were both out-of-print on VHS for a few years.

I don't own the DVD, and will never sell my Super 8 copy unless I, too, get my hands on a 16mm original or print-down. But honestly, the Super 8 print is so good there is almost no reason to get it in 16mm, since I don't project films in an auditorium, just in my small basement. I only upgrade my Super 8 L&H films to 16mm when I am dissatisfied with the quality of the smaller gauge.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 05, 2007, 09:54 AM:

I hate to say it folks, but I saw a "Fra Dialvo" (eh, I got that wrong) for 49.95 on 16mm, (american ebay) yesterday.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on November 05, 2007, 11:41 AM:

At the end of the day what's it is worth to the collector to want to have a print in his collection. With the small number of prints that were run on super 8 it will be a difficult print to get your hands on.

It took me about 5 years to find a copy and wow what a brilliant copy it is too.

Kev.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on November 05, 2007, 04:44 PM:

Hi Osi:

I believe the 16mm print on e-bay America was a DUPE of "Fra Diavolo". This seller also sold a 16mm DUPE of "Sons Of The Desert" too.

Probably the best I could do price wise for the Super Eight print is what I paid for it from author Scott Allen Nollen. He used it to research his L&H book in 1989. I paid $300.00 for it. Like Kev say's it is indeed special and limited and rare.

--Tom

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 08, 2007, 04:13 AM:

Tom, having seen you put this up on eBay I take it your 16mm print is a cracker.

Perhaps you could do a review of the 16mm print.

Kev.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 08, 2007, 05:36 AM:

Hi Kev your copy was maybe £119 or likely £129 as I just missed it at the time but it was below £130 which was`nt bad from a dealer. Not that its that relevant.
I still haven`t seen the film in any way or form, is it on dvd I wonder.
Best Mark.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on December 08, 2007, 11:34 AM:

Hi Kev & Mark:

To be honest I am taking a chance on the 16mm reduction print. I have not received it yet from the seller. I was assured by the seller that it is indeed mint. I had to do this by borrowing money from my Dad to get the 16mm copy. The ONLY way I could buy it was to sell off the Super Eight print first. I have a really bad feeling this was a very bad idea. I really can't imagine the 16mm print being any better picture wise than the Red Fox Super Eight print. I wish I could have both print's but I can't. So it's a major gamble for me to buy the 16mm reduction blindly. I hope for the best!!!

Mark: Turner Classic Movies does indeed have this title and "Bonnie Scotland" out on DVD here in the States. I have a copy but never got around to watching it yet. It certainly would not have the hues and density of an actual film print.

Best,

--Tom

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 08, 2007, 11:51 AM:

Good luck Tom, thanks for the info re Bonnie Scotland, shame you have to take the gamble but at least it will be on film and should be nice, sounds it, Have to be on DVD for me FD too and some kind luck to see it for me thanks to this thread and the chap.
Best Mark.

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on December 08, 2007, 03:37 PM:

You may want to consider changing the auction title. I routinely search in film for 8mm, Super 8, and Laurel, (among others) but it never showed up in my searches. I just found it now when I searched on Diavolo.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on December 08, 2007, 03:54 PM:

Tom, Best of luck and I hope the gamble pays off. [Smile]

Kev.

Posted by Tom A. Pennock (Member # 202) on December 08, 2007, 05:35 PM:

Collector's seem to be finding it. I have heard from a kind gentleman in Italy and also in Germany. It has not yet met it's reserve. Thank's Mark for the kind word's. Thank's to you too Kev. I also hope the gamble pay's off by going the 16mm route. This Super Eight print is special though. Being limited and possibly better quality control all around since such few copies were struck in Super Eight. Definately a collector's item. These don't surface that much as you mentioned Kev. People just don't want to part with them. It has to be the quality factor.

Regard's, Tom

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 09, 2007, 12:01 AM:

Well at least the 8mm print has the additional
Exit Music. I am more than sure that the
16mm reduction does not have Exit Music
and it probably does not have the
complete MGM titles as the Super 8 print has.

Tom, did the seller mention this in the sale?

Some sellers pass 16 prints off as reductions
when they are only Dupes.

But it is difficult to tell before Tom cements
his deal on the 16mm print.

I have the Ken Films Super 8 print
of The Devils Brother, and a 16mm printdown of
Fra Diavolo. The content is the same,
but the main title is different.
Both have original titles, are gorgeous and
Exit music.

This title is a good choice for any collection, and
it is not watching a DVD. Too bad for those out there
that abandoned film for the DVD because they don't know
what they are missing.

The Turner Classic DVD is a disaster, as are
some of their L&H Broadcast films on this same
Cable TV station here in the USA.
The DVD is compressed and the quality
if not consistently all that good, becuase
I find the artifacts in the transfer to be distracting.

Dennis King, Thelma Todd, and James Finlayson
play great supporting leads to the Boys - not
to mention the rest of the splendid cast.
The opera songs are well timed and the final
aria by King is well paced with a finale by
an imbibed Stanlio - is worth the price of
admission alone. How Stan did this, I can
never figure out? I guess you have to know the movie to appreciate the comic timing - especially at this
one point in the film.

The film is never distracting and can be enjoyed
by friends and family.

As for new releases - I support them, and for those
that anticipate T-3, fantastic.

With all of the Hoopla last summer and until now,
I am not sure if T-3 is a good choice as a hot release
and shocked that Derann is releasing this title, as
well as it being a "Bummer" with all of the requests
submitted by so many people. It also had to be the longest
post on the Forum.

In our home, I would not have many people entertained
by T-3, and I do not know if I would pull in a crowd?

If I owned T-3, I would be watching it alone in the dark.
This without an audience is a drag and boring.

But The Devils Brother has laughter, and is obscure for many people. That being so, will find this as a hidden gem
for many in our age range that know who L&H are as a team.

So for me, this one is not to miss in a collection, and neither
Tom or Kevin paid me for my opinion to this post.

[Big Grin]

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on December 09, 2007, 10:02 AM:

Michael,

Ken Films also came out with this? I thought only Red Fox did. My Red Fox box does mention MGM/UA, but not Ken.

Does the main title on your 16mm actually say FRA DIAVOLO rather than THE DEVIL'S BROTHER? It must be a European print. Hal Roach really messed up by thinking more people would go see it in 1933 with the anglicized version of the title.

Of all the boys' films, I think FRA has the most mystique. For me anyway, since for years I never saw this picture. When I was about 10 years old, I saw some of the cut-downs (e.g. CRY BABIES) on TV. But even then, I only saw them once -- this was before VCRs. I was in my 20s when I finally saw the complete feature on TV -- and of course I taped it. But I wasn't satisfied until I got it in Super 8, since I had practically all their other films that were available in Super 8. (Still need BONNIE SCOTLAND, though.)

Regards,

Tony

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 09, 2007, 08:49 PM:

Hi Tony classic home cinema have a nice red fox copy of B,S at the moment run twice.
best mark.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on December 09, 2007, 10:51 PM:

Tony,

Ken Films / Red Fox...
to me it is all the same.

The answer to your question is yes.

Back in the 70's the Museum of
Modern Art in NYC, ran a beautiful
35mm print of Fra Diavolo, and there
was a very interesting transition on
the "WANTED" notice that was nailed
to the tree. It was first written in Italian,
and then it lap dissolved into English.

This is not on my 16mm print or the 8mm release.

The 35mm release at MOMA, was stunning with deep theatrical
silver content. Absolutely beautiful.

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