8mm Forum: The Curse of the Chemical bath ...

This is topic The Curse of the Chemical bath ... in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003203

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 01, 2007, 09:57 PM:

I just recently got a copy of "Emperor of the North", a great film from the early 70's (Lee marvin).

The strange thing is that it has perfect FOX logo, then quickly changes to very mediocre color. In fact, quite faded. Then, in the last four minutes of the film, the color returns to almost pristine ...

This is my theory. I really don't know for a fact, but I bet that when it went through the chemical baths, it was on an automatic, or computerized system. Type in the number of feet in the feature, and push go, the film starts out slow, then quickly speeds up as it goes through it's bath. Shortly before the end of the film, the counter slows down again, hence allowing the film to bathe longer in the bath.

If it was just the actual film and a Fox logo tagged on, the FOX logo could be great and the following film faded, but this wouldn't account for the last four minutes having great color.

At least that's my theory. Any other theories?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 01, 2007, 10:45 PM:

Osi,

I wanna see some picture shots when the colour is faded and when it is prisitine....

I cannot believe there would be such condition unless you find splices within the reel.

cheers,

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on November 02, 2007, 04:34 AM:

Low level fogging at some point in the process would be my betting.
One thing they used to do was pre-flash some of these print stocks to control contrast. It maybe that the pre-flashing went wrong.

Kev.

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on November 02, 2007, 10:15 AM:

If the film processor slows down it will become dark, speeding up will cause it to go light. It must stay at a constant speed to stay even. Your film simply faded differently during the coarse of time. Pre-flashing the negative will cut down on contrast when making a dupe neg. You can also use a low contrast filter while shooting a print. There is a scene in EVIL DEAD 2 that was done this way as they lost the negative.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 02, 2007, 10:35 AM:

This is why I love this forum, you learn something new everyday!

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on November 06, 2007, 01:03 PM:

In making prints, both film processor and printers run at constant speed, now days up to 1000 feet per minute so a chance of control of print quality by machine speed is slight.

In making super8 prints, most labs use CORP (continous optical reduction printers) which take a 16mm internegative and make two prints (on 16mm) or four prints (on 35mm) in a single pass. At this stage it is too late to make light changes for corrections so the dupe negative must have been made with all scene to scene corrections printed in.

In the case of your print, it's possible that the original pre-print material was bad and that a new logo with good color was spliced on to the dupe negative and perhaps the last reel was in better shape than the rest of the picture. This can happen if the lab is forced to flash and dupe from a print rather than negative/internegative/interpositive materials.

As for computer control, it's used to control the processing machines and replentishment of chemicals, chemical temps and recircultation and record keeping. 35mm printer use computers and frame count control to apply light changes at scene changes in making answer prints and dupe negatives. Most release prints are made from duplicate materials which have all the corrections pre-printed in to the internegative from a corrected interpositive.

Internegatives nad interpositives have that orange dye mask which corrects for color shifts due to the dyes used in the film much like your old Kodacolor still camera negatives.

John

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 06, 2007, 03:14 PM:

The incredible John Whittle!

I did find it fascinating that the last four minutes or so returns to almost pristine color. The FOX logo was indeed spliced onto the beginning, but not by any seller of he film, as there are no splices on the actual film I have, it was added by the studio, a new logo for an old print.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2