8mm Forum: 8mm film with sound stripe

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Posted by Alan L. Hitchcox (Member # 598) on January 04, 2008, 09:58 PM:

I recently acquired some 8mm sound films on eBay. As is often the case, the seller didn't know anything about the films, and I couldn't communicate to him the difference between standard 8mm and super 8 film stock. He couldn't even tell me what size the spindle hole is in the center of the reel.
I took a chance and bid on the films. I won about five of them, and they arrived today. Much to my disappointment, they are all standard 8mm film, and my sound projector only shows super 8.I plan on posting these for sale on this forum, but I'm not sure what this film is called. Physically, it is the same size as my standard 8mm films, and it has a sound stripe on the same edge as the sprocket holes. Is this single-8 film, or something else.
Oh, for those curious about the titles, they are:
The "Benny Goodman Story," 1955, starring Steve Allen and Donna Reed (five 400-ft reels); "The Red Stallion," a western from 1947, (four 400-ft reels); "Cattle Queen," a western from 1951 (four 400-ft reels), "A Chump at Oxford," starring, of course, Laurel & Hardy, plus several shorts, including Freddy & the Dreamers (remember them?) performing "You Were Made for Me," an artist closeup called "The Unsinkable Bette Davis," plus a couple cartoons and baseball shorts.
Thanks, and I look forward to any help you can render.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 05, 2008, 04:25 AM:

Hi Alan,

It is Standard-8 sound. It's a little unusual, but not very.

They will play on any Dual-8 sound machine. According to Tim Christian's material on the history of 8mm sound, standard 8 sound machines were available in the 1960s, although I've very rarely seen them.

The interesting thing about Standard-8 sound is the separation of sound from picture is 54 frames Vs. 18 for Super-8, so there should be much less of a problem with the 24 FPS popping Super-8 sound tends to have.

I think the right buyer would appreciate these films.

Posted by Alan L. Hitchcox (Member # 598) on January 05, 2008, 09:16 PM:

Thanks, Steve.
I have a Eumig dual-8 projector (no longer working), which could've shown the both super 8 and std 8 sound. Considering the difference in sound separation, how could it show both types without one being out of synch?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 05, 2008, 09:56 PM:

I haven't actually seen it for myself, but I recall reading that the lower loop is forced to be bigger in R8 mode so the amount of time (and film distance) between the gate and sound heads is increased.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on January 07, 2008, 06:11 AM:

Unfortnuately, they will not play on "any" dual gauge machines. Silmas and Bauers, for instance, although sold as std/super 8 sound projectors featured a single film path for super 8 (18 frames difference).
Dual film Eumigs are, in my humble opinion, the best for the job. Switching from one system to the other is more than a matter of pushing down a lever. You have to change the sprocket wheels and the film gate manually. The 8mm gate features a special bump at its bottom that will indeed force-thread the film, as Steve said, into an alternate longer path before reaching the sound heads. Very clever system found on some models of the 7XX-D and 8XX-D series.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on January 07, 2008, 07:21 AM:

If memory serves me right the sound separation of Standard 8mm was 56 frames. Your best bet is to keep an eye open for a Eumig dual gauge sound projector which came in many shapes and sizes, possibly the nicest is the 824D. The Eumig 810D had the highest number manufactured and many of these are still around so you should have no trouble finding one of these. Some years ago I researched Eumig for a magazine article and they had some company history.

Happy viewing.

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on January 07, 2008, 01:04 PM:

I agree with J-M and Lee.

I have a Eumig S 810 D dual gauge sound projector, which is permanently set up for std 8.

I also have a Eumig Mark S which is a standard 8 only sound machine. I recently modified it by fitting a front arm at the rear for the take-up spool. I can now run 600ft reels on both machines, which I find superb. (The S 810 D takes 600ft reels anyway).

I heartily concur with both the previous posts in that I have no hesitation in thoroughly recommending either of these two projectors for standard 8 films, whether they be sound or silent.

However, if you're a bit of an "anorak/purist" like myself, I still use either of my 2 Elmos (E-80 or F-80) or the Ampro Futurist 8, for silent standard 8 screenings - it just seems to provide the right ambiance somehow, so to speak.

Enjoy your standard 8 films - they can be very good, you know!

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on January 08, 2008, 12:47 PM:

HERE HERE!

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on January 11, 2008, 03:58 AM:

As I wrote in another thread,I have bought a HLD 6000 sound sup/std
projector to find out that the sound in std 8 films is not played back normally-ie no lip-sync-because of the 56 fps overlap; unfortunately there's nothing to be done,just a question:are the Eumig the only dual-8 sound projectors where this problem doesn't exist?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 11, 2008, 10:44 AM:

Alan

See if you can find a Eumig Mark-S-709. It is dual standard 8 and super 8. It is auto thread only through the gate, thereafter it's manual thread through a channel (like an old tape recorder) and then manually laced around the rear sprocket. The area of the mech below the gate has two embossed curves indicating the size of the loop for each film gauge.

The removable side cover contains the gate not in use, plus the other two sprockets, and if you're using standard 8 there will also be an adapter for a super 8 spool on the feed arm. The take-up spindle will only take a super 8 spool, so this must be used whatever gauge you are running.

The projector is designed for use on 50/60 cycles, with voltage varying from 110v to 250v so it can be used just about anywhere.

Do not buy it "blind" without first having a chance to see it running, as this model is now getting rather elderly.

Maurice

Posted by James E. Stubbs (Member # 817) on February 19, 2008, 09:18 PM:

Maurice is dead on. I have two Eumig Mark S 709's and they both run quite nicely either super or std 8 sound films. Once's it's auto threaded through the gate you make a large loop according to the dotted line on the side of the machine, thread it through the rest, set the sound switch for std, (which btw would also serve to play the balance stripe on super 8), and away you go. Works like a charm. Std 8 sound is actually quite nice. If you want to part with them I actually would be interested. Let me know.
Cheers,

Posted by Eric Baucher (Member # 809) on February 20, 2008, 06:21 PM:

if you get an 800 series Eumig (which are more common) the standard 8 gate has a lip on the bottom and it changes the film path for the 56 frame separation. I have an 802D and an 824D(the best model in my opiniom) and they have no problems what so ever.Never had the 709 but im sure they are good to cause Eumig made som fine machines. if it werent for optical films and the 1200ft reel, you aalmost wouldnt need an Elmo [Smile]

*covers head and waits for the GS1200 crowd to throw stuff at him*

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 21, 2008, 02:13 PM:

Eric, you won't get any flack from me about Eumig projectors- I have always held my Eumig's in very high regard. I have a special affection for the 800 series, they are so compact and solidly built, just great little work horses. I do not like the coaxial reel 900-929 series, but the later non-coaxial 900 series (930 and up) are superb, with the 938 stereo and 940 stereo being the crown jewels of all the Eumigs.
It is interesting to compare the engineering approach of the Eumig and Elmo designers. Both companies manufactured superb equipment, but I think in many respects the Eumig designers were a little more sophisticated and innovative. Many of the Eumig projectors have some really clever features, one being already mentioned in this thread, how the 824D automatically throws standard 8 film to the larger loop size for 56 frames separation, with just a little change in the angle of the bottom of the gate. Now that is clever! The Elmo GS1200 is a superb machine of course, perhaps the best ever super 8 projector in some regards. Looking at the design, with its miriad of microswitches and relays and solenoids, you can see that the engineers took a very straightforward and logical approach to its complicated electronic control design. Solid engineering, well executed, nothing wrong with it, but also nothing that jumps out as being a brilliant new idea.
Anyway, I have rambled too much, and am probably being overly critical of Elmo. Just some random thoughts on these two great projector manufacturers. To each his own. [Wink]

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