8mm Forum: Much needed advice for a newbie!

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Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 22, 2008, 06:41 PM:

Hi all

I am a multimedia designer from Melbourne, with a strong passion for cinematography and experimental art, but have so far only worked in the digital realm.

I am looking to purchase an 8mm camera for future experimental works and possibly even music videos (if style is applicable). I would be looking to get the film scanned and converted into an uncompressed digital file so I could play with it from there.

I have a decent knowledge of manual still photography/optics etc but no experience with film for motion work. I need General advice of what camera gear would be suitable to my needs, and what cameras are rated as the best. I would definately be looking for variable frame rates, and if possible a removable lens, so I could maybe purchase some primes or macro lenses in the future.

Here is a camera that I found on eBay, looks good to me but I wanted some knowledgable opinions on this: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300191022279&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching

I am looking to make a purchase soon, so your advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks
Eugene

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 22, 2008, 07:28 PM:

Honestly, Eugene, you can do a lot better than that camera if you want to shoot film. If his description is accurate, it might be rather hard even finding 8mm (standard 8) film. I'm not even sure if it is made anymore.

However, Bolex, Bell and Howell and Eumig cameras, (preferrably
sound) are very good. There are some extremely good Super 8mm cameras out there that can literally give you close to 16MM in image quality and there are a number of places that still develop Super 8mm.

Just remember, if your filming fast action, film at 24 frames per second instead of 18 frames per second. 18 frames is adequete for stationary shots, but 24 frames per second, (which is the standard sound speed)is best. Uses up more film, but well worth it. With a background in still photography, you ought to have a ball with film!

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 22, 2008, 08:31 PM:

Thanks for the speedy reply mate!

Ok, there you go, i didnt even realize that that was standard 8mm. I will have to keep looking then, and take my time to make sure i get the right gear.

Out of curiosity, would I be right to assume that 16mm film will be a lot more costly to process/digitize, especially since it can still be sometimes used commercially?

I know the gear is more expensive, but it still is affordable.

Cheers

Posted by Alan L. Hitchcox (Member # 598) on January 22, 2008, 10:39 PM:

Hi Eugene,
I imagine you'll get a lot of different opinions on this one.
I first started shooting 8mm as a teenager 40 yrs ago. One big advantage to 8mm is that the film is on spools, so you can back it up and shoot double exposures. I even made a trick shot where I covered up 1/2 the shutter, shot a few feet, backed up the film, then uncovered the first side of the shutter and covered the other side. It was a fun and successful experiment.
I later switched to super 8 cartridges. The cartridges are convenient, but they are more limited. I think Fuji still makes a super 8 film mounted on spools, giving you the best of both types. Of course, if you'll be doing special effects, you'd probably be better of doing it on the computer.
As far as 16mm, I think it's awesome because the image size is at least four times that of 8mm (twice as wide and twice as tall). However, the size of films makes 8mm more practical, in my opinion.
As far as scanning, you need to choose carefully because of the wide variation in quality. the raw MPEG is the way to go for editing, but it takes up a huge amount of computer space -- I think about 100 MB per minute. I have a digital camcorder and have had success storing the footage on digital tape, then uploading the footage as MPEG video when I need it.
One of the most important decisions will be the type of film. I know of only one lab that still processes Kodachrome. So before you commit to a particular type of film, make sure you can get it processed.
Good luck.

-Alan

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 22, 2008, 11:44 PM:

Well after doing a bit more research, it seems that there are a few places in Australia that sell and process both standard and super 8mm.

Is there any major difference in quality or functionality between the 2 formats?

Osi, is there any other reason why you would say that the Bolex P1 is a bad choice? I personally find the variable frame rate very appealing. This is the only camera that I have found which goes up to 64fps, this is a function which I know I will find very usefull. Also the optics dont look too bad with a constant f1.9 lens.

Alan, what were the main difference you found between the 2 8mm formats? Also, the scanning is not an issue, I will look for the highest quality/res scan. I work with video and post production so I am quiet used to working with movies that are 1-2gig/min.

Keep the info coming guys ;-)

Many thanks

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on January 23, 2008, 12:19 AM:

Hi Eugene,

Welcome to the forum.

Super 8 has an approx 50% larger frame area than Standard 8, so that means higher resolution straight away. You can shoot Std 8 and the Bolex is a good choice, but if you are serious about using it in today's world, buy a high quality Super 8 camera like a Canon or a Beaulieu.

Search ebay guides for my How To Buy A Super 8 Camera guide. It gives a good basic understanding of shooting Super 8. Search the Kodak website for all their info. on Super 8 and 16mm.

You can ask me direct for more specific local resourses here in Melbourne.

Good luck with it.

David

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 23, 2008, 01:35 AM:

Hey David, that pretty much settles it for me then. Resolution is a huge factor for me so I will start looking into the cameras you suggested. Is there anything specific I should look out for in the differing models from these cameras?

If there are any places in Melbourne which you could suggest that would be much appreciated too. Also, I'll be sure to check out your book.

Apologies for the endless questions, I appreciae everyones contributions ;-)

Cheers

Posted by Knut Nordahl (Member # 518) on January 23, 2008, 06:02 AM:

Hi Eugene.

For Super8 here are some choises for you:

Interchangeble mounts:
1)Leicina Special (Expensive)
2)Beaulieu 4008 ZM (not so expensive but do cost. does 70 fps)
Non-Interchangeble mounts:
3)Canon 1014\814 XL-S
4)Nikon R10\R8 \Minolta Autopak D12
5)Canon 814 AZ-E
6)Elmo 110 (simple camera, very sharp lens, often found cheap)

As far as regular 8 goes the camera model you have there is very nice (I have not read the decription in the auction so I could'nt say anything about this item)

For single8 the absolutely best camera is the FujicaZC1000. Some say this is the best 8mm camera ever. Period.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on January 23, 2008, 06:54 AM:

Eugene,

The guide I wrote is free to read on ebay, just search the guides and you'll find it. It will answer many of your questions including the best models in my opinion.

Knut is spot on with what he mentions above, my favourites would be the Canon 814 XLS, the 1014 XLS and even the non-XLS versions of these Canons. I mostly use the 814 XLS.

With Beaulieu any of the 4008 ZM range is good, but be prepared to buy a new rechargebale battery or buy one with an external pack.

The Nikons mentioned are good too and so are the Minoltas.

It is not only the features on these cameras that sets them apart, it is the high quality lenses.

David

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on January 23, 2008, 07:52 AM:

If you are looking for variable speeds and removable lenses then you are looking at the Leicina Special which uses the Leica M Mount.
You can then use the whole realm of Leica lenses which are some of the best glass in the world. The top speed of the Leicina Special is 54fps unless you can find the Hi Speed Leicina which can run at 90-130fps. But that is the Holy Grail of Leicina's and to date have never actually seen one or known of anyone who has one.
The other camera maker is Beaulieu. Any of their line can take the C mount lenses so you can use many of the 16mm camera lenses as well and any still camera using various mounts. The 4008ZM series can film up to 70fps and the 4008ZMIV can run 80fps.
I have owned both of these cameras and both are top notch. The Leicina gave the sharpest pictures I have seen to date on Super 8 using the Macro Cinegon 1.8 lens. The Beaulieu gave great images as well but definitely not as user friendly as the Leicina. The Beaulieu model I had was the 6008S Pro Digital with the 1.2 6-80mm Angenieux Lens.
And then there is the Single 8 ZC-1000. Great camera with even more to offer with the only downside being that you have to get the film from Japan or Wittner or some other online dealer as the film is not readily available. And then it has to go to Japan for processing. The wait is usually a month...sometimes less. But if you are looking for a great array of effects ....fades, dissolves, unlimited rewind capability, hi speed filming, interchangeable c mount lenses..than you are talking about the Fujica Single 8 ZC-1000.
Check out this forum...you could be there for days reading there suggestions. This is mainly a film collection forum but over there they are generally shooting the films.
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewforum.php?f=1
Good luck in your quest!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 23, 2008, 11:26 AM:

Eugene,

Don't get me wrong about standard 8mm. It does have some good points, and you can get a decent sharpness to it, but I personally think it's best to stick with Super 8mm, as you have far more options for developing and such.

Some years ago, I took the scope lense that i was using on my projectors and shot in cinemascope, and the Super 8mm was incredibly sharp. I was amazed by the image quality.

If your looking for commerical use, you could go with 16MM.
Another great selling point with 16MM, is that it is still used for theatrical work, (Robert Rodregiz made a film "El mariachi"
and Columbia pictures bought it from him for a million, his price to make it, approx. 30,000 dollars, and it started a whole career in films)

So, if you chose standard 8mm, it's okay, but why start at the bottom, go with the film that still, to this day, has some incredible cameras available ... Super 8mm, that is.

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 23, 2008, 07:47 PM:

thank you so much guys, I am overwhelmed by the depth of knowledge on this forum.

I have been lucky enough to get onto a guy in Melbourne who has a lot of cameras for sale including some high end ones. I have written all the camera advice provided so far, and will go in next week to check this store out.

Your advice has been extremely helpfull, and I will report back next week to let you know what camera I have finally settled with.

Cheers guys!

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on January 24, 2008, 03:22 AM:

Hi Eugene, who is the camera seller? I know a few, but would be interested to know if there is someone I don't know of out there.

David

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on January 24, 2008, 05:46 PM:

Hey David

I got put on to Ed from Ed's Giant Reel in Glen Roy. I'm sure you probably know this guy, if not, let me know and I'll pass on his details.

PS. Your buyers guide on eBay was quiet helpfull.

Cheers

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on January 25, 2008, 10:26 PM:

Yes, I know Ed. There is also Rodney in Albury, and a few others too if you don't find what you're looking for.

David

Posted by Eugene Perepletchikov (Member # 1017) on February 06, 2008, 10:41 PM:

As promised i was going to report the result of my purchase.

I am now a happy owner of the Canon 814 AZ-E which is in excellent condition optically and mechanically.

Many thanks to all the people that contributed their knowledge, cant wait to start shooting!

Cheers

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