8mm Forum: Ilford Standard 8 Processing Question

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Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on May 03, 2008, 04:41 AM:

I recently got an old standard 8 cine camera, with a half-used film inside. This film is Ilfochrome by Ilford. Do any forum members know whether this is still processable...obviously, its not worth me spending £££s on, but just wondered.

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 696) on May 03, 2008, 05:41 AM:

If I remember correctly Ilfochrome was made by the Japanese firm Sakura, and rebranded for Ilford.
Sakura have long since gone.
It was processed in the standard Kodak E6 chemicals for reversal films.
I doubt if it is worth processing as Ilfochrome has not been around for many years.
There is a possibility that you might get some results, but due to the films age it would require a specialist processor.
You might like to try Rocky Mountain Film Company.
www.rockymountainfilm.com

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 03, 2008, 06:15 AM:

Having worked for Ilford I can tell you that Ilfochrome was an Ilford produced film and needs the old Ilford process to get the required results.
It was in the mid 80's that Ilford sold film made by Konica which used either E6 for slide or C41 for neg materials.

The only hope of getting an image off your old Ilfochrome movie film is to send it to a specialist lab to have it reversal processed as a Black and White film.

This looks like a good place to start ProcessC22

Best of luck with your old film.

Kev.

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on May 03, 2008, 06:37 AM:

Out of the thousands of feet of home movie film shot over fifty years,Ilford was the only film to have grossly faded images and in some cases,gone very red!
I had one other do the same-Geveart Gevacolour.Same fate.
All Kodachrome species are still good to this day.
On Ilfords up side,their black & white photgraphic films and papers were outstanding,but cine-a dud!

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on May 03, 2008, 08:09 AM:

Strange about the fade on your Ilford film Barry. I have reels old Super 8 Ilford colour film taken by my fayter in the early 1960's and the colour is perfect and no fade, at all. In fact, I wish that some of my feature films from the 1980's had stood up as well as these home movies.
The films in question, were kept in a box, in the attic and had not been viewd for at least 20 years. I'm just happy to have found them as there are lots of memories in there.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 03, 2008, 01:29 PM:

Yes I too have some which is fine. Ilford like Agfa Geveart used a different type of colour dye coupler which didnt tend to fade as quick. Obviously storage etc plays a very important part in film fade.
Lets hope that Simon manages to get his film processed as it would be great to hear what it's like after all these years.

Kev.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on May 03, 2008, 03:23 PM:

There is an interesting history of the Ilford Company Ilford History

It appears that the color "chrome" films were introduced in the early 1960s with a slide film at ASA 32 first and a cine film (in double eight) at ASA 25 later.

Perhaps Kevin can confirm if these were incorporated coupler films (like Ektachrome and Anscochrome) or non-incorporated coupler films like Kodachrome.

I know Ilford also introduced a black and white chromogenic all purpose ASA film for 35mm work which was really a color film with three different sensitivity layers corresponding to different ASA ratings so that when developed (in a color process) it yielded a black and white negative suitable for printing in spite of photographer error!

There were so many special chemicals used in the various color processes for Anscochrome, Gevachrome/Geavacolour, early Fuiji Color, early Orwocolor that it would be impossible to manufacture the necessary chemistry today.

As Kevin said, the best one could expect would be to develop with a black and white system either to a negative or reversal. One thing worth considering, some anti-halation backings were removed in processing and as such developing to a black and white negative with fixer won't reveal an image.

John

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on May 03, 2008, 05:51 PM:

Thank you for you assistance gentlemen. Acoording to the process-c22 site, it'll be £30 for my film to be processed. Think I'll need to see if anywhere is cheaper first. However, this company looks great; anyone know anything about them?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 05, 2008, 10:51 AM:

I have just checked my 200' of Ilford Color exposed in 1967 and it's still perfect.

That summer my local cine shop had a special Ilford package. It was four 25' rolls of standard 8. When they were all returned for processing (together) I was invited to number each tin from 1 to 4.

The film was returned on a 200' spool and each 50' section was joined together in the same order as specified. All the "rubbish" of the leaders and tails was removed. A very nice title was added "Colour On The Move - Ilford Colorcine 1967".

I don't recall how the price differed, if any, from buying four separate films.

Does anyone remember this offer?

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 05, 2008, 12:13 PM:

John, They had the colour couplers incorporated into the emulsion layers just like Ektachrome, Ansachrome, Agfachrome and a number of others.
The Differance with Ilford aand Agfa comparred to Kodak was that the couplers were water soluble in their makeup. The Kodak couplers were solvent based in their makeup which is why I think that the Ilford and Agfa didnt fade in the same way as the Kodak films. Obviously Kodachrome was a different product entirely and we all know that doesnt fade.

I actually have some Ilford Super 8 films here at home and they look superb. It's unfortunate that the Ilford Super 8 didnt make it into production as this was about the time that cine sale started to decline and the cost of tooling up for the cartridges was very high. I think that also for every roll sold in the Kodak type cartridge a royalty had to be paid to Kodak which is one thing that Ilford hated doing where Kodak were concerned. The experimental batches that were produced were spooled for us by Agfa in Dusseldorf. You wouldn't believe how close Agfa and Ilford worked. In fact its little known that some of the Ilford Coating machines were actually designed and made by Agfa.

I started work for Ilford in 1970 and worked in the colour research laboratories in the Emulsion labs where we made up experimental batches of emulsion for small scale test coatings. I eventually moved over and took charge of the department which test exposed these experimental films and printed them using automated (Gretag) colour printers.
When Ilford shut all its Essex based factories and moved to Cheshire I moved to the London offices and was one of the technical support team for colour products. Ilford slowly moved into the digital era and I moved with it which is how I became involved in the IT side of the photo industry.
I left in 1994 and moved into IT full time and have been doing that ever since.

I bet not many people know that during the 70/80's, the colour film sold by the UK chemist chain was Ilford's both Neg and Pos films.
Also who remembers the Tripple Prints of TRIFCA (Film Corp of America) this was again Ilford film and went on for many years.

During the late 70's early 80's Ilford sold technology to Sakura (Later to become Konica) and eventualy during the late 80's / early 90's Ilford sold these products once again as Ilfocolour and Ilfochrome. These of course were now the common C41 and E6 processes which were and still are the norm.

Ah those were the days [Smile]

How I so miss them [Frown]

Hope I didnt bore you guys but it's great to reminiss from time to time especially when you had a part in a companies history like this.

Kev.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on May 05, 2008, 12:34 PM:

Hi Kevin,must have been great to be involved in it all at the time,I found your reminising very interesting keep it up..Mark

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on May 05, 2008, 02:05 PM:

Maurice, that's exactly like mine. The titles on mine are "Coloured liquids pouring down what I can only describe as a "beer glass surface". Quality is still superb after all this time.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on May 08, 2008, 07:35 AM:

Just bought a Bolex Standard 8 camera...and some new Standard 8 film from the USA...giving it a try. Also bought the Bolex Focal Guide to give me some extra details.

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on May 08, 2008, 08:51 AM:

Very interesting, Kev.

No wonder you're such a Guru!

Thanx for the insight.

Cheers,

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on May 08, 2008, 09:03 AM:

Kev,

Thanks for the information. It's really amazing that the two know ways of coating emulsion were Kodak and Agfa. Kodak used the hopper and a long alley and spread the emulsion on the base where as Agfa used a bead coat and moved the base through a building.

I knew a guy who had worked for Agfa in coating in Germany and it was a very interesting process. I also knew about the Agfa/Gevaert couplers which is why I was wondering about the Ilford product.

Along with the water vs. solvent suspension they were entirely different dyes and coupling agents and it seems on the test of time that Agfa (which was also the Ansco product because before the war the company was Agfa-Ansco) method produced a more color stable product.

Thanks for the information....these little tid bits of information are the type of stuff that never gets into books and often just disappears.

John

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 08, 2008, 12:11 PM:

John, Thats just what the Ilford coating machines were like. The bead at the head and the material moving through the bead. Two types of coating machine were used Cascade and Curtain coating. Curtain was were the material moved through the bead and Cascade where it fell down on the material. I think this was similar to the Kodak method. I have recollections of a third method called web coating but I never got to see those smaller machine so don know really how it worked.

Very interesting to watch it all happen and then see the material carry on through its chillers and dryers etc from one floor to the next. One cock-up and you ended up with 100's of feet of raw film to bin. Obviously you used infrared goggles to watch and infrared cameras to monitor all stages of the operation in the control room. This was like entering the control room of a power station. So many dials and switches. The speed the material moved through the head controlled the thickness of the layer. The material would pass through the head a number of times depending on the number of layers being coated. It was only possible to put down so many layers per pass. Any variation in layer thickness and the characteristics of the product were completely changed.

You put on special clothing to enter the coating block. It was cloth which didn't have loose fibers and even your footwear and head are covered. A totally clean environment.

Ilford were well known for their capabilities of coating Polyester based products as these were the bases used for the Cibachrome print materials. Just imagine the loss of material if static flashes started leaping about and yes it did happen [Eek!]

Obviously Ilford are still going but in a much smaller way. They now make a reduced range of Black and White materials for the specialist market which still requires it. The Cibachrome plant in Switzerland now coats mainly paper rolls for Inkjet products although there is still some Ciba coated from time to time. How the markets have changed [Frown]

A real science this coating of Photographic film. We took it all for granted when we slipped that roll of film into our cameras.

Kev.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on May 08, 2008, 02:20 PM:

Standard 8 Film Prices

Just as a matter of interest, the Standard 8 film i bought from John Schwind was the equivalent of K40 and a 50' roll, including processing (at Dwaynes) was £12.28. Postage was about a fiver. Very good prices! The Bolex camera (a Bolex B8 in first-class condition) was £28, by the way.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 08, 2008, 03:27 PM:

Simon, Let us know how it turns out after you get it back.

Kev.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on May 14, 2008, 07:04 AM:

Very interesting Kevin. Every now and then I'd come across an old Australian feature on 35mm B & W Ilford stock. The brand was certainly known here for many years.

It all reminds me that K-Mart here had their Focal brand of Super 8 colour film and it was often sold in 3-packs especially for holidays. I think it was processed here at the large Agfa Super 8 plant that has long since gone. Was the Focal Super 8 Agfa stock? Did/does K-mart exist outside North America and Australia?

David

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on May 15, 2008, 05:29 AM:

I dont know K-Mart so maybe it is only over in your part of the world.
I would think that if the films were going back to the Agfa plant then they were Agfa film rebadged.
Agfa did rebadge for other outlets and they like Ilford had their own process. Agfa film could only be proessed by Agfa.

I have loads of Agfachrome which I shot on super 8 and its still looks great. It had very natural looking colours.

Kev.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on May 15, 2008, 08:51 AM:

In the US the K-Mart (which is part of Sears now) branded films were made by Ferrania. When Kodachrome II was introduced by Kodak, they licensed/sold the patents of Kodachrome I to 3M/Ferrania which continued to make the film as Dynachrome under their own name and sold it under hundreds of other names for drug stores, discount stores, etc. The process was modified to increase the ASA from 10 to 25 to match KodaII.

They were quite successful with this film in 8mm/Super8/35mm slide film for many years. I don't think they ever sold 16mm material.

Processing was done in the US (and probably Italy and other locations) and I think Technicolor also processed this film for 3M when they were still in the photo finishing business.

John

Posted by Dom Roberts (Member # 1178) on June 16, 2008, 08:14 AM:

Hello,

I'm the guy who runs Process C-22, as previously mentioned in this thread. I don't contribute much to forums nowadays but joined specifically to participate in this thread.

I obviously don't want to advertise here so I'll say nothing about our services in relation to Simon's query other than that we can help and he should contact us about his Ilfochrome if he would like to do so.

'Ilfochrome' (if the spelling is confirmed) dates from between 1962-65. Previous versions were called 'Ilford Colour Film' and 'Ilfachrome' (I think the 35mm naming convention also applied to cine film). After 1965 the film was named 'Ilford Colorcine 25', although it was essentially the same emulsion.

These films were all non-substantive, that is to say the colour dyes were in the chemistry rather than the emulsion. This means the film cannot now be processed in colour, but with some developing wizardry usable B/W negative footage can be obtained. This does sound fairly simple but with such old film it is actually incredibly difficult - and needs a good deal of skill and experience.

The main point of my post - I'm very interested to see someone on here who worked at Ilford in the 1970s, when the TriFCA company was active and Ilford were making their films. Kevin - could you get in touch, I'd very much appreciate a chat and talk about the old Ilford products, which we deal with every day.

Best regards,

Dominic Roberts

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 16, 2008, 08:41 AM:

Just picked up Maurice's reply in this thread re: the Ilford special offer 4 reels pack. I was on holiday with the children that year, and saw this offer on the Quay at Clovelly. The shop had mistakenly priced the pack at the price of a single roll (I think it should have the price of three). Needless to say, I bought it! They had more, but I didn't have any spare cash! I still have it; will check the results and see how they have survived the years.

Martin.

Posted by Dom Roberts (Member # 1178) on June 16, 2008, 08:52 AM:

We still get a few of these 'holiday packs' in for processing. They can't be processed in colour anymore but are quite often successful.

There is a picture of one of these packages up on our website, I can't give you the link here, but search for "ilford colorcine" on a popular search engine, and the link should be there.

Maurice Fisher's Ilford Chronology is an excellent piece of work and is a great deal of help to us regarding film dates - I have a lot more information to add to it as well - when work quietens down a bit!

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