8mm Forum: I need your input!!!

This is topic I need your input!!! in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004194

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 04, 2008, 09:17 PM:

I'm currently writing a book on Blackhawk Films.I am interviewing many of the people associated with Blackhawk,including Martin Phelan. I'm hoping to have the book ready by fall of 2009. What I would like is your input into what you would like to see included in the book. My special email is johnnyraoul@yahoo.com. I thank everyone in advance.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 04, 2008, 09:49 PM:

John, I think that this is obvious, but a COMPLETE list of Blackhawk titles and, if possible, film stocks used for the color releases.

Perhaps another chapter on the "after story". That is what happened to all the negatives, (as they were still used after the film company was closed.

How they acquired they're negatives in the first place?

This could be a wonderful read!

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on December 04, 2008, 10:51 PM:

Companies such as this have literally saved numerous titles from extinction -- lost camera negatives, nitrate prints now decomposed, etc., duped to safety film and reductions. Surely there are some dramatic little stories to be had here.

Or, when did they decide to shoot some of their own titles -- like train movies.

I was once shocked to stick my head in a film class screening of a 1920s title only to see the familier Blackhawk logo at the head! At that point I had only seen them in 8mm. This was a 35mm screening, and it was stunning to see such an old picture look so clear.

How much 35mm did Blackhawk do?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on December 05, 2008, 12:21 AM:

How about pictures of various Blackhawk's generic box? (I have made one particular posting about that here, you can search).

cheers,

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 05, 2008, 06:58 AM:

35mm Blackhawk??

Wow, thats news to me.

-Mike

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on December 05, 2008, 08:42 AM:

You already know what I think

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on December 05, 2008, 08:56 AM:

Holy Cow! Great Great News!!!! I think it's wonderful that you're doing this! I'll take 2 copies, please! One for show - and one to go!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 05, 2008, 10:15 AM:

I'll (hic) have one to go! (hic hic)

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 05, 2008, 11:54 AM:

Thanks for the replies.All of the info you seek will be covered.The negatives are in California,owned by David Shepard.Kent Eastin was a huge train buff and shot a lot of the railroad films himself.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on December 05, 2008, 01:02 PM:

Mr Shepard must have a rather substantial amount of storage. We hope.

Thank you, John. We'll look forward to the final results!

Posted by Jim Carlile (Member # 812) on December 06, 2008, 10:03 PM:

The interesting deals they made with big companies, like Sears and Wards, that helped spread film collecting around. And their big push with 8mm sound, which really popularized the format.

Sears really promoted both 8mm sound and Blackhawk (anyone ever seen the Sears 8mm promotional short with Vincent Price about how to make sound movies at home? Circa 1964? I never have....just in their catalog)

Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on December 06, 2008, 10:15 PM:

This is great news -- you can count on me to order at least two copies!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 07, 2008, 12:57 PM:

Jim ...

I would LOVE to find a copy of that Vincent Price Promo film!
WOW! talk about a rarity!

Also, John, if you could talk about the switch in film labd that Blackhawk sometimes did, as it did effect the quality of Blackhawk's prints for awhile.

There was that golden period when the prints were magnificent, than a period, (I believe from the mid to late seventies or early eighties), when the quality control went downhill a little bit, THEN that great period in the 80's when the prints went WAY back up in quality until the end.

Also, how Blackhawk aquired the masters for nearly the entire Ub Iwerks animation collection, as well as the master material for the many Van Buren animated films (Felix the Cat and the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg, for instance), as these master negative cannot have been far removed from the original camera negative. I am still shocked at the incredibly rich color of the Van Buren, Felix the Cat cartoon, "Bold King Cole", I mean, it really looks restored, it's that good!

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 07, 2008, 01:19 PM:

So far,everything you have asked about will be addressed.I am interviewing the people at Bonine Labs,which did all the lab work till the mid 70s.I have access to all the contracts Blackhawk had for distribution rights.Everything I can get info on will be included.It is far more than I originally thought.Your support will be greatly needed when I am ready to pull my hair out indexing all the releases!Thanks for the input.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 07, 2008, 02:49 PM:

I have no more hair to pull out!

I was always fascinated at some of the animated titles that they rescued from destruction. For instance, there were two films done by an australian animator (and his studio), one of which was "Rabbit Stew", and then there is the lovely animated release of the Coronet educational film's "The Littlest Angel" (which I happen to have an L.P.P. print of in those delightful Blackhawk silver boxes).

We have so much to be thankful for from Blackhawk. I really envy you, John, on being able to talk to all those fine folks as well as perusing all that great Blackhawk info ...

Your probably making one Joe Caruso Quite Jealous!

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on December 07, 2008, 03:52 PM:

John
WOW !!

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on December 07, 2008, 08:05 PM:

How about a listing of the biggest sellers?

I would guess that the most popular would have been the Laurel and Hardy films, with Chaplin and Our Gang not far behind. I guess this by the amount of space these subjects received in every catalog (some subjects only appeared every 3rd or 4th catalogue) and the amount of prints that show up used on ebay and in dealers lists.

What volumes of films were they selling each week in say the peak years of the mid-late 1970's would also be of interest.

David

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 08, 2008, 12:12 AM:

So many questions! Actually,the peak years were mid-60s to early 70s, Yes and L & H,Chaplin,Our gang were the biggest sellers. What made Blackhawk great was Kent eastin would issue films that he knew there was only a small market for,but releasing them for
.historical content.To put it bluntly,he was one of us!

Posted by Jeff Chaney (Member # 1025) on December 08, 2008, 01:36 AM:

David shephard is no dummy, he has spread his holdings out around most of the major archives, and he seems to have worked out deals where by he has them cover the costs off housing and maintaining the collections in exchange he lets them use his material at times and then perhaps he uses theirs when issuing the more recent dvd releases he has been involved in.
It would be hard to imagine film collecting without blackhawk, I only wish pathescope would have taken the care and attention to presenting films as close to their original release version as did blackhawk.

I would love to know about the relationship between blackhawk and other similar companies (most notably Niles, and to a lesser degree EmGee) because sometimes there would be the same titles offered, some of which looked like dupes off blackhawk material.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on December 08, 2008, 06:32 AM:

Jealous? Not in the least, I'm eager to help and help I will - John has complete access to every item I have on Blackhawk, bulletins, articles, etc and if he needs a particular film-box code, I probably have it [Smile]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 08, 2008, 10:25 AM:

John

When you have finished your book, how about one on Britain's Walton Films?

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on December 09, 2008, 10:47 AM:

Great to hear, Jeff, thanks for the info.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 09, 2008, 01:04 PM:

John, I would like to see lots of photos included in your book. Maybe pictures showing the key personnel in the company, photos of the various activities at the Davenport facility, pictures of the various film box covers, pages from the monthly catalog that they sent out etc.
Blackhawk were also involved in the sale of the ill-fated RCA Selectavision video-disc player system - you might want to research that a little bit. And they had that funny leasing
program of the later Chaplin movies, where you signed a lease agreement and agreed to return the film after 20 years or so!

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 10, 2008, 12:55 AM:

If the publisher allows me,I plan on a large photo section.As for the Selectavision and other later problems,I'm looking into that.But there are many conflicting stories I have to sort through.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on December 10, 2008, 05:28 AM:

Also, I've come across some sepia tone prints through the used film circuit, yet ALL of the prints I ever bought from them from 1975-1984, were on black and white stock.

I'm curious about that.

Thanks for your research John!

James.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 10, 2008, 09:09 PM:

Sepia prints were probably early 50s prints struck from old Kodascope library prints,also,Roger Williams issued a few Blackhawk films in the late 80s on clor stock made to look sepia toned

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 10, 2008, 10:05 PM:

John ...

By the late 80's isn't it true that black and white film was actually becoming more pricey and it actually made sense to release even black and white films on color stock?

I could be wrong though.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 10, 2008, 11:38 PM:

Yes,when the Huny brothers and other speculators created the false siver market,black and white film stock prices exploded.Had that never happened,*mm film would have had a longer life as films wouldn't become so cost prohibitive.By the end of the 70s,even digests were listing at about $80,big money for the time.

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on December 10, 2008, 11:51 PM:

Jeff
Yes,Niles and Collectors Club did sell inferior copies of Blackhawk prints of public domain titles.In many instances they did let the Blackhawk trademark show through.Collectors' even shortened them a little,cutting off the beginning scenes.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on December 11, 2008, 11:32 AM:

I also remember a very reputable super 8 company here in the U.S., Red Fox Films, offered a few Little Rascals titles that were part of Blackhawk's collection. I was always curious as to weather they were Blackhawk negatives, and weather the Red Fox prints had the "Blackhawk" title cards at the begining and end, or the original ones.

James.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 11, 2008, 12:58 PM:

A few of the Our Gang titles were in PD.Oug Gang Follies of 1938,for one

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 11, 2008, 06:16 PM:

Those darned speculators again! They screwed up the silver market, and they screwed up the the oil market!

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on December 11, 2008, 08:18 PM:

I have been curious about the different openings to the L&H films. I've had a BRATS with all Blackhawk titles, and one with a combination of Blackhawk and original (albeit 1937 re-issue) titles. I've also have a THEM THAR HILLS with Film Classics titles (but definitely issued by Blackhawk), as well as one with Blackhawk and original titles (in both cases the "L&H in" card was not original, but the rest were.)

I'd like to know more about the restorations they did on TWO TARS (in 1975), how they found the soundtrack to UNACCUSTOMED AS WE ARE, and more about the different negs on BIG BUSINESS (European vs. domestic).

Did they ever actually release DUCK SOUP (with L&H)? Supposedly happened in 1982.

Why don't the Super 8 versions of L&H sound shorts look as good as the 16mm versions? I'm not talking the difference in gauge here -- the Super 8s look like dupes, while the 16mm ones of the same titles look original. Yet the Super 8 and reg. 8mm L&H silents look magnificent. My Super 8 restored TWO TARS looked just as good as the 16mm one, taking into account the gauge.

...Well, you asked!

[Smile]

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 11, 2008, 08:57 PM:

So many questions.A lot will be answered in the book as I gather all the information.Duck Soup never saw the light of day,the only print around had foriegn subtitles and was widely bootlegged.Quality of prints had a lot to do with the lab change and replaced negatives.You'll find the pre-1978 prints are much better.I am interviewing the person who did the restoration of Unaccustomed As We Are and I will have the full details.I plan on covering every detail of the operation of Blackhawk from beginning to end,will have access to all the archive materials and plan on the book covering every possible question.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 12, 2008, 09:10 AM:

John, your book will be an absolute 'must have' for film collectors everywhere. Will it be going on sale in book stores such as Borders or Barnes & Noble, or will it be a special mail-order item?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 12, 2008, 10:14 AM:

John ...

Isn't it true, that as Blackhawk received better and more complete negatives of any title, they would then update on the next release that title?

I had an earlier title of "Brats" (L&H) from Blackhawk, and then I got the later sound version, a later printing, and it had the original titles (with the two hats on them, at least I think those are at least part of the orginal titles) back on it, which was quite enjoyable.

I have mentioned this before, but I always enjoyed all those "details" that you would get with Blackhawk. On, I believe "Wife and Auto Trouble" there was, after the end titles of the short, a approximately 5 second clip at the very end which was an advertisement, which had a clock and stated,
"Time flies with Mutual films" (I think it was mutual). Most other companies would just toss that off, but Blackhawk included it!

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 13, 2008, 11:35 AM:

Yes,when better negatives were found,they replaced the older ones.The story of the restored Chaplins could be a book in itself

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 13, 2008, 06:51 PM:

Your book will be a bestseller!

At least, on this forum! I'll buy it and I wish I could reserve a copy right now!

hardbound?

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on December 13, 2008, 08:26 PM:

David Shepard wrote an excellent article in the Blackhawk bulletin when they first released the restored Mutuals in 1975. There's a wealth of information there -- do you have a copy of that?

One thing I noticed is that the restored FLOORWALKER is missing some footage near the end when Eric Campbell is chasing Chaplin down the escalator; that footage exists in the unrestored version that they previously had in release. Also, the restored THE VAGABOND has some of the early gypsy scenes out of order. (Never saw the earlier Blackhawk version.)

Back to L&H -- why didn't anyone at Blackhawk realize that the introductory titles to THE CHIMP were out of order?

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on December 14, 2008, 11:29 AM:

The Van Beuren scored prints didn't have that footage,hence the omission.David has told me what a job it was to make those prints.Thank all of you for the support! It helps when I get bogged down!

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on January 30, 2009, 08:34 AM:

So, when the RBC lease expired in 1991 for those of us who bought the films - what happened? Did anyone come-a-knocking or was it a wash? John... When is the book's street date?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 30, 2009, 08:47 AM:

Brad, I have heard rumors that there are several people in San Quentin Penitentiary, for not returning their leased Chaplin prints! [Big Grin]

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on February 04, 2009, 09:18 PM:

Funny! Seriously, though. Were any of us contacted by either RBC or a holding company representing them about any of the prints? I know the Chaplin estate (like the Harold Lloyd estate) is well known for being extremely protective about their stuff. I remember when I was about 15 and just dreaming about getting up the $200+ to eventually buy (whoops, lease) a print of "Modern Times" and/or "The Great Dictator". Sadly, Super 8 ebbed and even now these prints are rare or when they are up for auction - the auctions end at almost twice what they originally sold for in the Blackhawk catalogs.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on November 30, 2009, 12:31 AM:

How is the progress on the book going John?

I have just completed one publication as a co-author and now back to the other one I have been working on........I know what it is like!

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 16, 2012, 02:38 PM:

We were all saddened by the passing of John Black, and now I'm wondering if all of his research is being lost as well. Does anyone know of the publisher, collaborator, or if there's any chance of saving this information?

I ask now because of an interesting local event that happened last weekend. The William S. Hart Museum nearby in Newhall, CA (his former ranch and residence) holds an annual fundraiser called Silents Under the Stars at which Hart westerns are screened with live musical accompaniment. You can read about it here in today's paper: newspaper article in the Santa Clarita Signal.

All of this is interesting enough to film geeks, but what takes it up many notches is that the presenter is David Sheperd, of Blackhawk and Film Restoration Associates fame. Wish the tickets were less expensive($75) as I'd like to meet him; but nice to see that 200 people came, even on a very hot night.

More about David Shepard at Wikipedia can't be linked because this forum refuses parentheses in a URL, but is also mentioned and linked from their entry on Blackhawk Films. Also, here is a cool interview of Shepard well worth your time.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2