8mm Forum: Shooting 8mm today Sound?

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Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 08, 2009, 10:17 PM:

Understanding that new 8mm sound cartridges
are no longer manufactured, how is it possible to film
and coordinate sound around the home or
especially when on vacation (holiday)?

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 09, 2009, 03:42 AM:

Hi,

a) You can still get your film striped by several companies. Some of them (=at least Fipra) still offer to do this with unexposed film in their darkrooms. You can then load the film into reloadable carts.
b) Martin Baumgarten still had frozen Single8-sound-carts for sale (you didn't mention whether you meant Super8 or Single8). You can also still buy Super8-sound-carts on eBay. But in most cases they haven't been stored in a fridge and hence will most likely give "strange" colours.
c) You use any of the sync-sound-systems (crystal, pilot, ...).
d) You'll manually sync it later on your computer: Prerequisite: You're going to get a frame-by-frame video-transfer of the film and do have the means to transfer the sound back to the film's mag-stripe with the projector's speed sync'ed to the video or vice versa. In this case you'll simply slate each scene at the beginning and at the end. When you stick to scenes with less than 30 seconds, this will give "good-enough" results to match the sound to images on the computer later on. (Most programs offer to slow down/speed up the sound without altering the pitch + it's very easy to add pauses or to remove some silent split-seconds to make the sound match the pictures.)

a) Costs a fortune, requires a darkroom, ... but it's as easy as b) after this.
b) Is the easiest way, but a little bit risky when the film comes from a "dubious" source.
c) Is difficult when shooting as you'll have to fiddle with both camera and recorder. But it's very easy in "post".
d) Is very easy when shooting, but can be a lot of work in "post".

Jörg

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 09, 2009, 05:16 PM:

Hi Jörg,

I am curious if there is a portable recording device
that can be connected by blue tooth and recorded
via wireless onto an iPod? Or if there are small portable
recorders that allow sync pulse?

I have a Minolta 601XL Super 8 sound cartridge camera
which is equipped with a flash sync port, which I never understood
how to use?

Below are picts of the camera and the ports.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 10, 2009, 09:25 AM:

Hi,

the original purpose of the "flash sync port" was to trigger a flash-light for each frame when shooting single-frame, e.g. a cartoon.
Nevertheless there are (or have been) several gadgets that turned the "flash"-info (per frame) into a 1000Hz-impulse (per frame) that can be recorded on any audio-track. When having "AV"-tape-recorders or "AV"-walkmen (the once used to synchronize slide-projectors to the music from the tape), the impulse was recorded on one of the tape's rear-tracks while the stereo-sound was recorded as normal on the tape's front tracks. You can do the same with digital audio-recorders with at least 3 different tracks. Nevertheless most of them only offer two tracks. Hence you'll only be able to record mono-sound on e.g. the left channel and the beeps on the other channel. Nevertheless some digital-audio-recorders (e.g. MP3-recorders) can't be used as they heavily compress the audio and hence "mix" both tracks. Some of the "gadgets" also started/stopped the tape-recorder sync'ed to the camera. AFAIK this wouldn't work with any of the current digital recorders(*). Hence you would have to use a slate.

The "Funkimpuls Sender / Empfänger" shown here seems to be the last wireless gadget that's still in production:
http://www.ffr-film.de/index.php?page=poetter&language=de

When you do like being wired, you could use this gadget (also available with other connectors):
http://www.super8sync.com/English/R1008MD.html

The same device for special "AV"-recorders:
http://www.super8sync.com/English/R1008AVS.html

Jörg

* = There have been some portable MiniDisc-recorders on eBay that had their remote-control modified so that the synchronous start/stop was still working. (At least the seller claimed that this was the case. And I've only seen them once or twice in years.)

P.S.: There are/have been other sync-methods that are/were using special tape/reel-to-reel-recorders and perforated tape. Or that simply slowed down/accelerated the audio-recorder.
And instead of sync'ing both devices, you could get your camera crystal sync'ed and then use any digital audio recorder. (But I don't know if this is possible for your camera and if this service is still available at all as the last company offering this is this one).
Hence the "impulse-method" might be the best for your purpose.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on February 10, 2009, 06:56 PM:

Michael-

I've have been doing this the "primative" way for many years now-

Using just a standard cassette recorder with a decent microphone, I just record my sound 'wild'. I may have someone say a few words into the camera, but I try to keep most of the talking off-camera.

Then, send my processed film to be sound-striped (currently using EVT).

Then, upon return of striped films, I do all of my editing.

And, last, I record the sound directly from the cassette, onto the film (via my Sankyo ST-800). Some scenes will be precisely "voice-to-mouth" (those are the hardest). Some scenes don't need such precision. Then, add any backround music or sound fx if desired.

It usually takes me MONTHS for me to complete a 200 foot home movie (working a full-time job, etc). But, when its all done, I can REALLY APPRECIATE it.

Ironically, the real pay-off is that- no one watching the home movies will ever know the blood & sweat it took to make that nice little 10 minute production and get it up on that big screen [Wink]

.

James.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on February 12, 2009, 12:08 PM:

Michael, I use option D because it's cheap on expense (though long on time costs, as mentioned) and because it yields the best sound quality, though mag stripe done well can indeed sound pretty wonderful.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 13, 2009, 06:09 AM:

quote:
Michael, I use option D because it's cheap on expense

I was using option D as well for most of my projects as I was always missing something in my setup for option C and didn't wanted to rely on lending devices from friends. (I managed to obtain the last missing parts last year, but they weren't working out of the box and I didn't had any time to do further tests.)

When you keep track of your scenes on a peace of paper you don't even need a clapper board as it'll do to clap your hands or to do something else that's clearly visible and audible.
(e.g. my notes look like this:
Scene 5:
Film: cartridge 1, camera counter at 10 feet
Sound: Track 7
Scene 6:
Film: cartridge 1, camera counter at 35 feet
Sound: Track 10 <- I was using a MiniDisc-recorder and was recording more sound than needed, hence the track's number doesn't match the scene-number.
)

quote:
though mag stripe done well can indeed sound pretty wonderful.

You can still transfer the sound onto mag stripe later on when you know someone with a projector that can be "crystal-synced".

Jörg

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 17, 2009, 02:28 PM:

Jörg and forum members,

Just to clarify:

1.)As you were using a MiniDisc-recorder,
how well did it pick-up voice while
shooting a person speaking?
Did you also need a wireless mic to pick up
sound from the subject and onto the MiniDisc?

2.) I am unfamiliar with the MiniDisc machine. What type of MiniDisc
recorder do you use, and are they expensive?

3.) Is "crystal-synced" the same as connecting the
silver port that is found on the side of my camera (above pict)
and connected to the MiniDisc recorder?

4.) Does the "crystal-sync" connect from the computer or strictly
from a mag recorder?

5.) Can a GS 1200 use a crystal sync?
Does it need Pedro's Box?
Where can one find a crystal sync? Are they expensive?

5.) Regarding option "D" the film is transferred onto video then
imported into a computer editing system, and sound is
cut to match the visual track. Correct?

6.) Later the sound is imported
onto the projector film sound stripe for sound editing?

Michael

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 17, 2009, 09:22 PM:

Just a thought, Michael:

Most of the time I shoot with the Minolta XL-401: basically the same animal as the -601 with a lower zoom ratio and a faster lens. As a general purpose camera it is my favorite and I have two of them.

When my wife and I go to a big occasion and we want both film and video we've developed this rhythm of alternating me shooting film and her shooting DV, otherwise my camera noise winds up on her sound track.

If you use the XL-601 for sync sound you'll need to solve this problem in real time. (not impossible, just a consideration...)

My Minoltas run about 21 FPS, neither here nor there by normal projector speeds where sound is concerned. (Found this out shooting titles.)

Posted by James E. Stubbs (Member # 817) on February 21, 2009, 05:10 AM:

EVT sound striping? Contact info? I'd like to know of any and all in the USA still offering striping. Especially paste stripe as this seems to be the only thing that sticks to Ektacrhome.
Cheers,

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 23, 2009, 04:09 AM:

Hi,

EvT's address can be found here.
Their email-address can be found in some other threads - please use the search function (Sorry, but I'm too lazy to do this myself [Wink]

)

quote:
1.)As you were using a MiniDisc-recorder, how well did it pick-up voice while shooting a person speaking?
Did you also need a wireless mic to pick up
sound from the subject and onto the MiniDisc?

I was using a "Richtmikrofon" (English translations: "directional microphone", "unidirectional microphone", "cardioid microphone" not sure which one is the correct term). However this didn't work as good as expected. Hence in most cases the actors had to repeat their lines with a mic right in front of their mouths (and without the camera rolling - I used the original recording to adjust the speech in Adobe Premiere later on.)

quote:
2.) I am unfamiliar with the MiniDisc machine. What type of MiniDisc recorder do you use, and are they expensive?

I was using one of the first "affordable" Sony-MD-recorders. Price was approx. 600 DM (300 EUR) back then. However AFAIK all MD-Recorders except for some HiMD-recorders (by Sony) are now out of production. (Those HiMD-recorders are better as they can record uncompressed in CD-quality, while the old MD-recorders used some ATRAC-compression that lowered the quality.)
Buying a used MD-recorder is more or less useless as most of them need special (=expensive) batteries. And any used battery will now probably only last 10 minutes. (There are some models that'll accept normal AA or AAA batteries, though.)

quote:
3.) Is "crystal-synced" the same as connecting the
silver port that is found on the side of my camera (above pict)
and connected to the MiniDisc recorder?

No. "crystal-sync'ed" means that the camera and the audio-recording device are running at a constant speed (controlled by some quartz crystal as found in most watches, all CD-players, all computers, ... ). There's no physical connection between camera and audio-recorder. But you'll need a slate!

Here's one of the companies that offered to crystal-sync a camera:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050309064707/users.aol.com/fmgp/sync8.htm
There have also been some other companies that used a small box that simply connected to the single-frame-release. However this doesn't work with all cameras.

quote:
4.) Does the "crystal-sync" connect from the computer or strictly from a mag recorder?

Neither nor. However you can turn your computer into a "crystal sync"-box for some projectors. (This has been described for the Elmo GS1200 a couple of times on this forum.)

quote:
5.) Can a GS 1200 use a crystal sync?

Yes.

quote:
Does it need Pedro's Box? Where can one find a crystal sync? Are they expensive?

Pedro's box is one of the possible boxes. Others can be found at FFR or Wittner, e.g..

quote:
5.) Regarding option "D" the film is transferred onto video then imported into a computer editing system, and sound is
cut to match the visual track. Correct?

6.) Later the sound is imported onto the projector film sound stripe for sound editing?

Both is correct. Instead of using the "film sound stripe", one can also use any other means of "two band"-audio source (reel-to-reel-recorders, tape-recorders, CD-players, ...). Of course using the "film sound stripe" is the most convenient way as it ensures that the soundtrack will be played back on all sound-projectors (as there are too many different "two band"-systems and as most projectors have to be modified to support "two band").

Jörg

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