8mm Forum: The (rare) early horror genre

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Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 14, 2009, 05:15 AM:

I have been wondering where I should look next, to add to my somewhat limited collection of this genre.

Some may laugh at the fact that I only have 4 films thus far, but the titles should give some indication of where I'm coming from.

The Cabinet of Dr Caligari (standard 8 silent)
Dr Mabuse (standard 8 silent)
Nosferatu (16mm silent)
Metropolis (16mm silent) - awaiting delivery

It's not so much the Hitchcock or Edgar Allen Poe, but the Fritz Langs and similar of this world that I'm more interested in.

The four I already have are of excellent print quality, so if anyone has any ideas regarding titles etc. which would fit right in with the above, I'd be very grateful.

Many thanks,

Cheers,

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on February 14, 2009, 05:22 AM:

There are prints of THE GOLEM about. On various formats. Phil Sheard had a 16mm one on a recent list. That would fit right in.

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 14, 2009, 05:51 AM:

Hi Steven,

I just checked out the synopsis on imdb, and you're right, - it would fit right in to my collection. The 1915, 1920 or even the 1936 sound version would be fine.

However, I have also just looked at CHC's current list on their website, and I can't see it. I guess maybe it's already sold.

Still. I'll keep looking. Thanks for the tip.

Best,

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on February 14, 2009, 06:40 AM:

I don't know if there are any prints out there but "Vampyr" by Carl Dreyer would be a good choice.

And I would pick Fritz Lang's "M".

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 14, 2009, 07:36 AM:

Thanks Jean-Marc. I'll look out for them.

By-the-way, any joy yet on the RCA projector???

Best,

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on February 14, 2009, 08:43 AM:

Hi David,

You are clearly interested in a wider range of films than just horror. I wouldn't call any of the Fritz Lang films horror, but he was clearly intrigued by mastercriminals (like in the fantastic Dr. Mabuse). There are more Lang films out there. I have an 8mm print of 'Destiny' (Der Muede Tod) and 8mm prints of both episodes of 'The Nibelungen' (I had them on the table in Ealing last May, but now I am in two minds about selling them). Paul Foster had a 16mm print of 'Woman in the Moon' on his list a couple of months ago. I was a bit cash strapped back then, so didn't get it (and now regret it...). There was a S8 print (Blackhawk) of 'Spies' (Spione) on the US Ebay recently (might still be there; also a fantastic film!). A couple of years ago I saw two German Louise Brooks films (8mm) offered somewhere (probably "Pandora's Box" and "Diary of a lost girl"); well worth getting if you see them somewhere.

To get it back to horror, Jean-Marc's suggestion 'Vampyr' is a great one. It pops up on 16mm every now and then. Never seen any mention of (S)8mm prints. For American films, think about Paul Leni's "The cat and the canary" (big influence on the later 'haunted house films') (also try to find his German film "Waxworks" (Das Wachsfigurencabinet). Both these are available on 8mm (I still have a print of Waxworks; It is for sale for pennies; Image quality is quite poor, but I'm not sure if better prints are available;)

Not exactly horror, but often weird and also full of criminal masterminds are the films with Lon Chaney. "The Monster" is comedy/horror. I used to have an 8mm print, but no more. "The Unknown" is an absolutely fantastic bizarre film. Some 16mm prints are floating around, but they are rare (I would give both my arms for a print....). Most of his existing films were issued by Blackhawk on 8mm, S8 and/or 16mm at some point. Prints of "Phantom of the Opera" are common.

"Jeckyl and Hyde" is also a good exampleof early horror and prints pop up every now and then.

Since most of the examples you gave are from the German expressionist era, I would recommend reading a couple of books. The best one is probably Lotte Eisner's "The Haunted Screen" (Die Daemonische Leinwand), with lots of stills from films as well. Another good one (although much more dry and academic) is "From Caligari to Hitler", which tries to relate the German cinema of the teens, twenties and early thirties to the politics and the mood in Germany around that time.

I'm no big fan of dvd's, but for films from this era, things are a bit different. For a lot of films, better elements have been found since the (S)8mm and 16mm prints were issued. Many of the dvd's look stunning and have often very interesting background material as extra's. Having said that. I had this fairly poor print of "Waxworks" and a much, much better version on DVD, but for some reason I enjoy the 8mm print a lot more!

As 'M' is an early sound film. There is alot more to be found there. A lot of the German directors (and cinematographers) left Germany in the late twenties and in the thirties. They made some great atmospheric stuff there as well. Last year I picked up a 16mm print of Carl Freund's "Mad Love". Another straight decendent of the German expressionists. The influence is felt for much longer than that. Film Noir is often thought to be heavily influenced by the stuff you mention. I have a 16mm copy of "The Night of the Hunter" (1957) and I wouldn't hesitate one moment to put that film in a double bill with a German film from the twenties!

Anyway, much to enjoy there. Track down a copy of the Eisner book (Ebay or a site like abebooks.com ar good sources) to find some references to other titles.

- Rob

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 14, 2009, 11:09 AM:

In fact I have 'Vampyr' on Std 8 sound, 4 x 400'. It's a Niles print that I haven't viewed for years, but I think it's fairly good. I might have heard of it on Super 8, but I'm not certain.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 14, 2009, 01:30 PM:

THE STUDENT OF PRAGUE

There are two silent versions.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on February 14, 2009, 04:16 PM:

Wow... I've always been a fan of the silent horrors. Has anyone heard the story about Ken Russell the film director ( who was born right near me, actually,) and how he got interested in films was exactly through those expressionist horrors which he saw... no, not on the BBC or a film club but on st8 and 9.5 rented from the local chemist's shop that used to hire films out. He saw all the classics like that. There's in fact still a chemist's there - I went in the other day but forgot to ask if there was any 9.5 in the basement!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 14, 2009, 04:39 PM:

It is VERY RARE and extremely hard to find, (I bought the one and only print of this that I saw on ebay once and never seen again), but another early horror film, shot as a silent, but released as a sound film from Germany, much in the line with Salvador Dali's expressionistic experimental films, was ...

"VAMPYR" (1930 OR 31, not sure)

It was released on standard 8mm, silent (possibly Super 8 as well), on 3X400ft reels. The print quality was pretty good, considering that nearly all prints (until recently) in all formats was fairly awful.

It is a rare horror film that is truly surreal and has some wonderful special effect tricks, (film reversed to show person undigging grave and shovels of dirt going back, or a live person staying one spot and the shadow departing, for instance)

Well worth getting!

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on February 15, 2009, 02:25 AM:

It is also well worth reading the early posts on this thread Osi as Vampyr was already mentionned.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 15, 2009, 02:57 AM:

VAMPYR is a great movie. Watched it on TV on Sky Arts channel recently. I'd love to get hold of a 16mm print.

Posted by Jonathan Sanders (Member # 478) on February 15, 2009, 08:48 AM:

Dreyer's VAMPYR was released on Standard 8 silent in the UK by Perry's Movies. It was re-titled CASTLE OF DOOM (!) and issued on two very full 400ft spools - 5 reels in effect. I used to have it but sold it very cheaply. I recall the print quality was not too good, though much of the film has a deliberately hazy look. Prints may well be more likely to turn up now as a restored version was released on DVD in the UK and US last year.

By the way, the earliest (1915) version of THE GOLEM (mentioned above) is believed to be a lost film, apart from one brief fragment.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on February 15, 2009, 09:05 AM:

THE GOLEM I have seen is the 1920 one and I believe it is available on DVD. No-one has mentioned the Lon Chaney PHANTOM OF THE OPERA yet, on this thread. That would fit with this collection of greats.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 15, 2009, 01:24 PM:

Sorry, didn't see the earlier mentioning of "Vampyr". The film only ran 75 minutes, so the full feature is out there, of course.

This film really hasn't survived well the ravages of time. Even the restored Criterion DVD edition out there has it's flaws, but it is a fairly good restoration of the movie.

That's right you guys, my "Vampyr" has "Castle of Doom" (or was that "Fear") for it's title!

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 16, 2009, 06:32 AM:

Hey all you guys who have responded so eloquently; many thanks for your contributions and suggestions. There is certainly a lot to look out for there.

Rob, you are right. I think perhaps the word 'horror' might have been a bit narrow. However, all the films mentioned, not only by myself, but by everyone else, do fall into some kind of category I'm sure, but I can't think what it might be!
...Surreal, expressionist, dark, or whatever...might cover this particular range of films.

My other interests are of course, American railway and westerns, but I think everyone on the Forum knows that by now.

Now comes the business of trying to track down some of those titles. [Eek!]

Cheers,

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on February 16, 2009, 08:18 AM:

Is there a black and white Western set on a train with lots of weird camera angles? Filmed by a German director? Hmmn... with vampires?

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 16, 2009, 03:38 PM:

You've hit the nail right on the head there, Steven!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If only..........

[Big Grin]

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on October 06, 2012, 02:21 AM:

I had a Super 8 Sound. print of VAMPYR which I purchased from Thunderbird Films in the early 80's, the image quality was nice, but it was taken from such a shrunken source that the image steadiness problems were extreme, so I returned it in exchange for a very nice-looking print of DAUGHTER OF HORROR/DEMENTIA (not t be confused with DEMENTIA 13, which I also had from Reel Images).

DAUGHTER OF HORROR was fun, but no VAMPYR, and I regretted the swap for years even if VAMPYR looked jumpy.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 06, 2012, 01:55 PM:

Wow! I had no idea "Daughter of Horror" was ever released on super 8! Thats a real classic, and is best known for being used in the movie theater scene from "The Blob".

Its very film-noir-ish [Smile]

.

Another great one for super 8 would have been "Carnival of Souls", but who knows, maybe that ones out there somewhere too.

James.

James.

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on October 07, 2012, 03:17 AM:

I haven't seen a lot of posts talking about Thunderbird Films, but they had a huge catalog when I was buying new stuff in the early 80's.

All PD stuff, and from what I could tell, made-to order. I had a rather disappointing print of Caligari from them. Griggs and Blackhawk seemed to have the only good ones, visually, but my Griggs print had bad sound, and a lot of vertical lines right out of the box, and Blackhawk was no longer selling Super 8 prints of Caligari when I started collecting.

My Horror Sci-fi collection was basically this,

CABINET OF DR. CALIGARI (first Niles silent C-, then Griggs Moviedrome B- then Thuderbird C0
NOSFERATU (Blackhawk)
THE GOLEM (Griggs Moviedrome B+)
THE LOST WORLD (Niles C)
HAXAN (NILES C)
CAT AND THE CANARY - tinted (I forget who but a sold B+)
PHANTOM OF THE OPERA (GRIGGS A)
METROPOLIS (Niles D, Griggs A)
DIE NIEBLUNGEN (Blackhawk A)
UN CHIEN ANDALOU (Reel Images B+)
FAUST (Blackhawk A)
VAMPYR (Thunderbird B-)
THE MONSTER WALKS (Blackhawk B+)
WHITE ZOMBIE (Niles B)
THE CAT PEOPLE (Nostalgia Merchant B)
THE SPIRAL STAIRCASE (ABC Films B+)
DAUGHTER OF HORROR (B+ Thunderbird)
HORROR OF DRACULA (DERANN A)
DIABOLIQUE (unknown B-)
HORROR HOTEL (unknown B)
DEMENTIA 13 (B- Reel Images)
ROSEMARY"S BABY (Unknown A)
NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD (Niles C+, Red Fox B)
VAMPIRE CIRCUS (Derann A+)
WITCHFINDER GENERAL (Walton A)
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO AUNT ALICE? (ABC Features B+)
POLTERGEIST (MGM/Red Fox A-)

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on October 08, 2012, 08:52 AM:

Just watched the tail end of VAMPYR last night on TCM....

I wouldn't mind having a print of that one....man it was creepy!

Bill [Eek!]

Posted by Richard Bock (Member # 1926) on October 08, 2012, 09:50 AM:

This is creepy from Criterion- Eyes Without A Face. on Hulu plus 4 streaming. Wish it was on Super 8!

http://www.hulu.com/watch/215874?playlist_id=631

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on October 08, 2012, 03:43 PM:

I honestly don't think anything can touch the Criterion DVD on 8mm or 16mm, the French M2K disk is based on the same restoration with no English subtitles, as is the British Masters Of Cinema DVD, but Criterion went a little further on clean-up, and did a graphic-match on the German text with translated English ones, and kept the English-insert version optional. I assume TCM showed that?

I'm something of a VAMPYR fanatic, ever since I bought a Super 8 print nearly three decades ago, and I bought every conceivable version since.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 08, 2012, 03:56 PM:

I'm suprised that no one has mentioned that "Vampyr" was a
sound film,but was also put out as a silent.

Posted by Richard Bock (Member # 1926) on October 08, 2012, 03:56 PM:

yes the Criterion releases are incredible. no match for smaller gauges. I mentioned the Franju film Eyes Without A Face, because I remember it being very creepy and artful.

I know Fall of the House of Usher directed by Jean Epstein is a bleak and artful silent in the 8mm gauge. That I'd like to get someday.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 08, 2012, 04:30 PM:

Hi David,someone was selling on ebay, a little film that would sit
quite happily in your horror collection entitled "Sparrows".
The film was reviewed by William K. Everson in his book "Classics
of the Horror Film" and he tells of an incident at a showing of
the film in New York,when a child exited the cinema post haste
followed by it's mother,both did not return.The story concerns
the running of a baby farm in the swamplands of what looked
like the Everglades,it starred Mary Pickford,and as Mr Everson
observed,if a film made in 1926 can have that effect in 1973
what must it have had when first released.Another one you
might look out for is the 1928 "The Man Who Laughs".

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on October 08, 2012, 08:37 PM:

The Thunderbird print of VAMPYR I had was sound, I assume Niles made the silent prints. it's true that there is little dialog and a fair amount of text on screen in VAMPYR, but just as Dreyer was visually innovative, he also put some neat touches into the soundtrack. Weather it's the squeaking drill being used to seal the coffin from the corpses point of view, or the shadows of ghosts dancing merrily to a fiddler's jig, not to mention the dirge-like music that sustains a general ominous tone throughout.

I didn't know Epstein's HOUSE OF USHER was on 8mm. I love that one too, and recommend it to anyone who likes VAMPYR.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on October 08, 2012, 11:39 PM:

Timothy yes Usher was put out in a 5 reel version from Glenn Photo Supply

David I would recommend you pick up the Griggs' print of The Golem which is excellent, and you would probably enjoy Fritz Lang's Woman in The Moon that was put out by Cine-Service.....

Posted by Akshay Nanjangud (Member # 2828) on October 09, 2012, 12:19 AM:

I haven't watched this one: F. W. Murnau's The Haunted Castle. Although the title proclaims the castle as haunted, IMDB doesn't classify it as horror .... flummoxing!

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on October 22, 2012, 07:42 PM:

The HAUNTED CASTLE is anything but haunted I'm afraid. It's disappointing for film by the man who gave us NOSFERATU and FAUST. It's actually a pretty tepid mystery/morality play that's a cinch to figure out, and not particularly atmospheric, or very interesting. Even the crime at hand happened before the film begins. Were it not a Murnau film, I doubt it would get much, if any attention today.

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