8mm Forum: Projector runs too slow

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Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 18, 2009, 06:04 AM:

As I was watching my Star Wars 200' reel the other day, I noticed that the sound was "slowed down", making the voices very deep and slow-motion-ish. However, it wasn't noticeable on the video itself, only on the speech.

So, I figured it was probably because I hadn't warmed up the projector prior to use, and didn't give it anymore thought.

However, I tried it again today, and let the projector warm up for nearly 10 minutes (manual says 90-120 seconds is enough).

The video looks fine, but the music/speech is slowed down, so I'm thinking it runs at maybe 2-3 fps too slow.

Any ideas?

I made a recording of it that I can upload if you want to see the problem yourselves.

--- UPDATE ---

I opened up the projector to clean it, thinking maybe it was dust, and I found about four feet of shredded film here and there, stuck between various parts. Gonna test it once the electronic rinse-spray dries up.

--- UPDATE 2 ---

Tested now, still slow audio. The cleaning did however improve my picture quality alot. Any ideas?

[ October 18, 2009, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Christian Bjorgen ]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 18, 2009, 06:53 PM:

Christian,

If you notice the sound becomes pitched down then the picture must have also been slowing down. You just did not notice it but certainly your projector has been slowing down about 20%. So if the film was supposed to be played at 24 fps, now your projector is running between 19 to 20 fps.

What is your projector? Some projector has speed adjustment in the main board. You need a jewel screw driver.

regards

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 18, 2009, 07:51 PM:

To me it sounds like a stretched out belt.

If you want to measure the projection speed, spool out a piece of scrap film and make two marks in frames 40 inches (a Meter is close enough) apart (scratch the emulsion or use grease pencil). When you project this at 24 FPS, the two marks should be separated in time by 10 seconds (stop watch...). It will be more accurate if you choose a point well into the reel so you give the machine a chance to reach full speed.

(..and please don't call the picture "video" [Wink]

)

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 19, 2009, 09:05 AM:

The projector is a Eumig S710D.

I'll measure it with some reel later on today and get back to you [Smile]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 19, 2009, 09:39 PM:

Does the 710D have continuously variable frame rate? If so this could be a problem with the rubber facing of the drive disk. If it hardens the drive can lose "traction" and the frame rate will slow down.

My Eumig hasn't had this problem but people who have reported it here have refreshed the rubber with automotive brake fluid.

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on October 19, 2009, 10:42 PM:

Hi Steve
Never use Brake fluid on Eumig drive plate rubbers.

If you use brake fluid on the Eumig rubber driven discs then it will stop working in a few seconds due to slip at the pinion.

The correct product to use is called Brake Cleaner, and is an evaporative spray used in the motor trade to clean brakes.
It flushes off oil & dirt & it then dries quickly, leaving nothing behind to cause slip. Don't inhale it.
Beware of damage to plastic parts with some brands of brake cleaner. Some are safe with plastic when used sparingly.
Brake fluid contains an oil that won't evaporate and it will ruin your drive plates grippy surface.
They only need a tiny bit of lubricant on the pinion to cause total slippage.

I suggest you look at the motor pivot bushes as most Eumig 700 series have disintegrated & collapsed pivot bushes. That will cause a loss of drive or bad slip.

If they are Ok, try spraying some lubricant onto the intermittant mechanism, as its probably dry in the cam groove.

let us know what you find.
[Frown]

[ October 20, 2009, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: frank arnstein ]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 20, 2009, 05:49 AM:

I stand corrected. As I said, I've never had the problem.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 20, 2009, 09:39 AM:

OK.. I'm clueless as to where these different parts are.

Could someone take some pictures of the inside of the projector and draw on where the parts are for me? [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 20, 2009, 09:44 AM:

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves here, and that's probably my fault.

Christian, why not try the test I described above first and let's see how bad the problem really is?

The problem is every time you fix anything you run the risk of breaking something else, so it never pays to "fix" a problem before you are sure you have it.

There should be a way of measuring frame rate by observing the rotation speed of either reel, but the math would be a little more involved: it would change continuously based on the amount of film on the reel when you observed it. (3.14159.......etc.)

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 20, 2009, 10:28 AM:

Steve, if you check this video from my screening room:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO_E313PsT0

Skip to about 3:00, and watch from there, you should see the speed of the projector.

I'll get an exact measurement once I have the time for it [Wink]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 20, 2009, 11:05 AM:

Christian,

I have seen your youtube and for my point of view, I think there is no a problem with the speed. Your projector runs at correct speed (24 fps).

So what is the matter now?

Or can you upload another youtube with human voice film, so I can find if it is pitched down or not (your current film is Tom & Jerry without any dialog but music only and I think the music does run OK).

regards,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 20, 2009, 01:42 PM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8ZXBPadYo

From my Star Wars reel, where its easiest to notice.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 20, 2009, 02:14 PM:

I agree, they sound a little bit low to me (Just a quick breath of helium would set things right, I think!)

It's still possible we are getting ahead of ourselves:

This projector should have a slider for continuous speed adjustment. Is it adjusted for maximum speed?

Your accent is interesting: sounds like a guy from New York!

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 20, 2009, 02:28 PM:

Yes Christian, I notice that voice a bit pitched down. You may be correct it is around 20-21 fps.

So, I guess you have to know exactly if the machine has the speed adjustment that I mentioned previously (I knew Sankyo series, Chinon series have it) but it can also because of the belt issue (or drive disk if this Eumig uses it).

Christian, probably you may want to know that at least there are two kind of system used for turning the projector's motor, i.e belt and disk drive. Some Eumig use this drive disk (no belt) but I am not sure what is used in this model.

Probably you can open the back cover and give us some photos inside.

thanks

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 20, 2009, 02:35 PM:

I'll get some pictures taken tomorrow, I don't have the time to fix it tonight. Hopefully the problem isn't too hard to fix, as I really want to see some of the feature films I've ordered [Smile]

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 20, 2009, 03:47 PM:

Winbert, the 710 uses the "disk drive" speed change mechanism, operated by a "up and down" slder towards the back of the projector.
Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 28, 2009, 01:24 PM:

OK!

So I finally got around to take some pictures of the inside, and here they are:

http://bjoergen.org/vault/Projector_1.jpg
http://bjoergen.org/vault/Projector_2.jpg
http://bjoergen.org/vault/Projector_3.jpg
http://bjoergen.org/vault/Projector_4.jpg

Note the third picture, it shows the voltage. Currently, it's set to 240 V, the way it was when I bought it. However, Norway uses 230 V, could this be the reason?

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on October 28, 2009, 01:35 PM:

Christian, you have to upload the pictures here, on the forum, if you want people to see them. This forum won't allow any link to pictures hosted on other servers.

I had a similar problem many moons ago with an ageing 7XX or 8XX Eumig machine (can't remember, they use the same drive system anyway). I cleaned the whole drive disc then sanded it with fine grain paper, it worked miracles for me.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 28, 2009, 01:36 PM:

It now links directly to the images instead of showing them, should work.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on October 28, 2009, 01:46 PM:

Great.

OK, pic 4, below the 50/50hz cycle change part, you see two discs over the transformer. The drive system is that tiny pulley between both discs. You want to concentrate your cleaning/sanding efforts on these two parts (pulley and disc). Be gentle. Run the projector without any film, dust and clean the area, sand the discs, clean the area, sand the disc, clean the area, and so on and so forth. Go through your films and use something like a sound 50ft reel that you don't really care about as a test reel. See if the speed improves.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 28, 2009, 01:56 PM:

So you don't think it could be just the voltage?

I'll try sanding and cleaning.

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on October 28, 2009, 05:47 PM:

Hi Christian
Try changing the power frequency Hz switch from 5oHz to 60Hz.
That will change the running speed. Turn the switch so 60hz is up.
Perhaps that will cure the slow speed.
In Australia we have to run it at 50Hz but you could need the 60Hz to get it running correctly.
Let us know how it goes.
dogtor
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 10:22 AM:

OK!

Will try that today. The main power in Norway is 230V/50hz tho, so are you sure that it wont damage the projector?

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 29, 2009, 11:07 AM:

Christian,
The 50/60 Hz switch on these machines is NOT an electrical switch at all, so the mains frequency is not important.
It is a MECHANICAL adjustment that alters the travel of the main drive ball on the motor shaft. This then shifts the speed RANGE of the machine by using different diameters on the drive plates.
The lever should move easily into the other position (according to the Manual!).

For those who would like to make a precise calibration of the operating speeds of 8XX machines (perhaps following lubrication or an overhaul) I have taken the liberty of re-printing another Member's instructions below. I apologise for not giving a credit for this, but I cannot now locate the source!!...

"The speed range of the Eumig 8XX is set by a large, shiny-metal screw just above the shaft that carries the two rubber-faced drive disks. This runs through a slot in black metal plate through which the 50/60 Hz switch passes. It clamps a shiny-metal bar through another slot. The further down this bar is, the faster the projector will run. Usual top speed is in the range 27.5 to 28 fps.

Adjustment of speed requires the use of a suitable meter: either a true r.p.m. indicator (measures the interval between pulses from the sensor) or a digital frequency meter (measures the number of pulses in a given time). The adjustment is very delicate; speed is extremely difficult to set by ear alone. I would not recommend attempting this adjustment unless you have the correct equipment and tools, and are used to using them.

Measure the speed with the projector running forward, with the lamp on, and with the take-up spool spigot clamped stationary to simulate a film load.

Examination of the metal bar below the clamping screw shows that there is a small hole in it below the slot. Once the speed-measurement equipment has been set up, and with the projector UNPLUGGED, set the speed control lever into a mid position. Insert a suitable instrument screwdriver in this small hole and hold it in place. Then, with a thin, but broad screwdriver, slacken off the adjustment screw no more than a half turn. This should allow the slotted bar to be moved UP slightly. (Movement of this bar about 2 mm covers the entire range of speed between about 23 and 28 fps, so only a slight movement should be made between speed measurements.) Now, tighten the adjustment screw, set the speed control lever to 24 fps and measure the speed. Repeat this adjustment until the required speed is attained.

Finally, check that both the 24 fps and 18 fps speeds remain correct. It is a good idea to check this in the 60 Hz (or 50 Hz if you a running on 60 Hz) position of the switch, checking that the speed corresponds to the ratio of the frequencies.

These instructions are based on my examples of Eumig 8xx machines. Eumig were fond of making minor changes during production, so check your machine before starting."

Thank you, (whoever you are!)

Martin.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 11:11 AM:

Here are the results:

50 hz 240 V: as told earlier, too slow (see youtube clip)
50 hz 230 V: same
60 hz 230 V: actually slowed it down ever more

So i'm puzzled here.

Frank:
You mentioned something about "pivot bushes", feel free to give me some details on this [Smile]

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 29, 2009, 11:38 AM:

Christian,
That is what I would expect. The machine is driven by an induction motor, which is frequency sensitive. If you were to run it on 60Hz mains instead of 50Hz it would speed UP, so the mechanical switch setting for frequency would need to slow it DOWN when moved to 60Hz.
Martin.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 01:04 PM:

Well then I'm back to square one in terms of fixing it. I'll change it back to 50hz then.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 29, 2009, 02:31 PM:

Christian,
Below the motor, which is mounted vertically, there is a white plastic bush which has a spindle ini it. Thereis a similar one on the other side of the motor, The motor pivots about this spindle to provide forward and reverse drive on the drive discs.
If these bushes are cracked or the spindle stiff in the holes there will be insufficient pressure on the disc to make sure that the drive is not slipping.
You can try applying a little extra pressure by hand to the motor to press it against the disc; if this results in the correct speed check the pivots and the springs on the other side of the motor.

While I'm on this post, does anyone have the correct procedure for checking the adjustment of the stops for the motor pivoting?
Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 03:44 PM:

Cleaned the discs and motor now, also tried adjusting the pressure, but nothing helped.

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly tho, so I will take some more pictures of the parts in question tomorrow after work.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 30, 2009, 11:33 AM:

http://bjoergen.org/vault/Motor.JPG

Here's the part in question, does it look right?

EDIT:

I also found these images:
http://www.tecnocast.org/foto/eumigrip/icona7.jpg
http://www.tecnocast.org/foto/eumigrip/icona6.jpg

This is from a similar machine being sold in Italy, and I cannot see any difference on the motors.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 30, 2009, 01:37 PM:

In the image you posted the pivot bush is white and probably original, but it looks to be in reasonable condition.
In the second of the others, the bush is brown or black and is probably a later replacement. It also looks OK.
As long as the motor can be easily rocked to the left and right so that the drive wheel contacts the two drive discs firmly, you should be OK. Any stiffness indicates that the spindle needs cleaning and lubricating where it passes through the two bushes. If all bearings etc. have been cleaned and lubricated properly an the machine is still too slow, it could be that a proper set-up of the speed range is needed (see the earlier post on this); perhaps someone has played with this setting at some time.

Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 31, 2009, 11:07 AM:

The problem is that I don't have any experience whatsoever with this type of machinery, so I have no idea what defines "easily rocked to the left and right".

So far, I've cleaned the entire machine, but I haven't tried manually pressing the motor to the drive wheel (I'm scared of getting shocked!).

But! There's a brown clip on the motor (visible on my photo), is that the pivot bush? Is that thing even supposed to be there?

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on October 31, 2009, 11:56 AM:

Let's try a description of what you can do...

YOUR photo, that's the one YOU posted first. THe photo is actually on its side so when I say "to the right" , that's the BOTTOM of the machine, OK?

Now looking at the photo to the right of the Motor coil (the big block of copper wire) you will see a piece of WHITE plastic shaped like a triangle with the top cut off... that's the motor pivot bush In the middle of that there is a steel spindle... that's the motor pivot itself. There is another bush on the other end of that spindle. The motor is fixed to the spindle and is therefore able to rock backwards and forwards. When it rocks one way, the drive ball on the motor shaft touches one of the drive discs; the other way, it touches the other disc.

Now take a careful look at the photo. Just below the end of the copper coil furthest from the pivot you will see two bolt heads which hold the motor together. In the photo, one is dark coloured and the other light coloured, but in your machine they might not be that colour. Just concentrate on the one that is light coloured in the photo.
When the machine is in its normal working position and you are looking at it from the back of the machine, that bolt head is on the top of the motor and on the left. If you place your finger on top of that bolt head and press down the motor will tilt to the left and contact the left drive disc. You can do the same on the other side of the motor and it will tilt to the right and contact the other disc.
Now, with the back off, set the speed control to maximum (fully up), plug in, and switch the machine to "Forward". The motor will tilt to the left and the machine will run forward. For safety, with a piece of dry wood (or other insulator) press down on that bolt head. This will increase the pressure between the drive ball and the drive disc. If the machine speeds up, then under normal conditions there is slip between the ball and the disc.
Known causes: Grease on the ball or the disc, disc surface shiny or damaged, insufficient strength in the motor pivoting spring (behind the panel behind the main control knob), cracked motor pivot bushes, pivot spindle tight in the bushes, or friction in the various bearings of the main shaft or many gear wheels in the machine (not forgetting the reel drive clutches and the gears inside the spool arms)
Finally, friction in the Flywheel or pinch roller spindles will slow down the machine by placing a drag on the film, which will reflect back through the sprocket drives to the main shaft. But that will only occur with film in the machine.

Apart from all that, I have no other ideas!

Martin.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 31, 2009, 01:29 PM:

Wow! That's .... alot of information in one post!

I'll go try these different methods and get back to you [Smile]

----
UPDATE:

Motor ball and drive disks checked and cleaned, motor pivot and pivot bush looks OK aswell. Also tried applying manual pressure, but this only made it stop completely.

Did however notice one thing:
The motor ball can be manually "pushed" farther up, making the disc rotate faster and thereby increasing the fps (theoretically).
However; when I shift the control to "Forward", it slides back down to it's standard 24 fps position. Is this normal?

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on November 02, 2009, 12:00 PM:

Christian,

The reason the drive wheel moves up and down the shaft is because it is attached to the speed control switch located on the front of the projector. It will say 18 / 24. With the back off the machine, slide this switch up and down and make sure that the drive ball moves up and down the shaft. If it does, make sure that when you let go of the switch the ball does not drop down slightly by itself.

Craig

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 02, 2009, 12:14 PM:

It's a synchronous motor, so it will spin at 3,000 RPM at 50 Hz and 3,600 RPM at 60 Hz.

So the "gear ratio" for 60 Hz would have to take more motor turns per main shaft turn than the one for 50 Hz.to keep the machine's final speed constant at either frequency, so at a constant frequency, trying the 60 Hz setting will make the machine run slower than the 50 Hz setting. (makes sense...)

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 02, 2009, 12:22 PM:

Yes, Craig, I'm aware of that, but the ball could move even further up manually, but it slides down when resuming play.

Anyway, I'm stoked as to what to do here. I might just try to get a refund for it and buy a new one, because I have no clue on how to fix it, and noone nearby deals with this type of machinery.

Posted by Hugh McCullough (Member # 696) on November 02, 2009, 05:42 PM:

Hello Christian.

Just a thought before you go pulling the machine apart.
You never know it might be just a film fault.
Have you run this Star Wars print on another projector that you know has no speed problems?
If the sound is the same then it is a film fault.
If the sound is reproduced correctly then it is a fault on your Eumig.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 04, 2009, 09:06 AM:

The fault is in the machine, because the speed is an issue on all my reels, and I've tried with eight different reels now.

I'm gonna try spraying some CRC lubricant into the various parts to see if that smoothens it up. That's safe to do right?

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on November 05, 2009, 04:26 PM:

It was kinda neat seeing YouTube footage of your Star Wars print being projected, is there a folder here devoted to people showing bits of their films on YouTube? I know it doesn't do them justice, but it's kinda fun to see.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 06, 2009, 11:15 AM:

Once I've fixed my projector I'll record all the reels I have and post, I can make a thread for it then [Smile]

Back to topic:
Does ANYONE have any idea what could do this? I've tried everything mentioned so far, short of lubing the machine or taking it completely apart.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 06, 2009, 12:50 PM:

Christian, If you really have tried all the simple suggestions others have posted for you ,try lubing the machine as previously suggested.If that doesn't cure it the only logical conclusion is that the basic speed range setting of your machine has slipped out of adjustment, and the machine's speed range needs to be set up properly.
Read Tim Christian's posts in this thread...
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001471# 000013
which includes the extract I copied in one of my posts. The information is explicit and detailed IF you have not tried the full reset as he describes, then perhaps you should do it?
If you have ignored it because it looks too complicated or difficult, then seek the aid of a good mechanical hobbyist.

Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 06, 2009, 01:51 PM:

Thanks for pointing that one out, Martin, didn't see that post earlier [Smile]

I'll have a look myself, but I'm not too mechanically skilled, so I might just get my electrician friend to have a go at it.

Will get back to you with results [Smile]

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 07, 2009, 10:46 AM:

I was reading Chip's "my new long play unit" thread, where he said: ".. take up is the hardest for a super 8 projector to do ..." and this made me realize/think:

The take-up spool arm on my projector is partially "broken". The part that you fasten the reel on is missing a small part, so the reel sometime "spins" on it rather than taking up film (if you get what I mean). Could this affect the speed of the projector?

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 07, 2009, 12:23 PM:

No.
Martin.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 07, 2009, 12:27 PM:

OK, I'll start looking at that other thing you mentioned then [Smile]

Posted by Jeroen van Ooijen (Member # 1104) on November 08, 2009, 06:12 AM:

And how can i speed up my st1200HD it is ok,but it must a littlebit faster,i knoe how the movie sounds on my other projector,maby is that the problem.
But is there a pitchbutton or something? [Big Grin]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 08, 2009, 08:28 AM:

Hi Christian,

I have been following your thread and seems that problem is not solved. On the other thread you are thinking to repair it John White (in the UK). I don't think it will be economical considering the shipping cost v.v involved.

I would say that EUMIG is a good machine but not as simple as the Japanese projectors.

I would suggest you to find a little Japanese machine that is handy and was market largely (for easy spare parts). Most of Japanese machine will have a small pin pot for speed adjustment (but not for Elmo ST1200, sorry Jeroen).

At this time (although there is some negative comments), you can buy Chinon 330. I have this machine and I will say it is an incredible small machine. This machine has always been sold very cheap (around $50s) and even if yu buy from UK it is around GBP 20.

I bought this machine two months ago because the seller say that the speed is slowing down. I took a risk and it was sold for $25 at Ebay. When I arrived, I opened the back cover and did some adjustment .... and voila...it runs at correct speed now.

The Chinon lens (1.3) is also razor sharp.

The negative comment from the members say that it scratches films. But I didn't see any this harm thing in my machine. So I think it should be OK. And moreover I don't collect those rarity or expensive Derann's items. I just enjoy 8mm for my nostalgic memories and hobby (will not bring them to my death [Big Grin]

)

Give a try,

Posted by Jeroen van Ooijen (Member # 1104) on November 08, 2009, 08:46 AM:

No problem winbert,then i know that,everyday i learning more.
Thanks a lot [Big Grin]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 08, 2009, 08:56 AM:

Jeroen, since I am also following the DJ things there is now a real time pitch changing available in internet. This software can pitch adjust the input sound and have the output in lower (or higher) speed.

Please google and do your experiment [Wink]

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 08, 2009, 09:44 AM:

Hi, Winbert!

The problem is that I am on a very tight budget, so I just sent John a mail asking for his opinion on it [Smile]

If it's "unfixable" without repair, then I might sell it as a repair object.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 08, 2009, 12:30 PM:

Yes sure Christian, I understood, that is why I suggest you with cheap (but affordable) projector. Asking John will only give the same answers like we have here. And if we have a limitation on technical things it is not useful.

I am a kind of tight budget projectionist too ... [Big Grin]

Good luck

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 08, 2009, 01:44 PM:

Yeah, hopefully he will answer my mail tommorrow, and then if he has nothing new to add I'm gonna try sanding the wheel and discs.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 09, 2009, 06:45 AM:

John answered my mail now:
Hi Christian, you need to clean the rubber drive discs lubricate the shutter cam plus you could adjust the speed control assembly try this.

Regards,
John

---

So my question now is:
How/where do I adjust the speed control assembly?
How/where do I lubricate the shutter cam?

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 09, 2009, 07:57 AM:

Christian,

"How/where do I adjust the speed control assembly?"

At the risk of repeating myself, try looking at earlier posts!

" posted November 06, 2009 12:50 PM
Christian, If you really have tried all the simple suggestions others have posted for you ,try lubing the machine as previously suggested.If that doesn't cure it the only logical conclusion is that the basic speed range setting of your machine has slipped out of adjustment, and the machine's speed range needs to be set up properly.
Read Tim Christian's posts in this thread...
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001471# 000013
which includes the extract I copied in one of my posts. The information is explicit and detailed IF you have not tried the full reset as he describes, then perhaps you should do it?
If you have ignored it because it looks too complicated or difficult, then seek the aid of a good mechanical hobbyist."

John appears to have repeated the advice you have been given before on this very lengthy thread. If the problem is you simply do not feel capable of carrying out any of the suggestions, then I repeat the advice of consulting a good mechanical hobbyist; none of this is total rocket science.
However, the machine would simply not be worth the attentions of a professional repairer.

Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 09, 2009, 08:45 AM:

OK, but what type of lube should I use? And where? At all the points where i can see grease?

Will CRC 8201 spray work?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 09, 2009, 09:48 AM:

Christian,

I have been checking again your youtube (Star Wars) and although the movement is normal but the sound is low. It is quite strange for me.

I did an experiment last night with my Chinon by fine adjusting the speed and it showed that when sound became slow then the picture was also slowing down. It was very noticeable.

(Although this may not relate to your case) In DJ gears, there is a feature to change the CD speed and it (as a normal turntable) will change the pitch (key). But another new feature is to change the pitch/key while keeping the speed.

Do you think this what happen to your projector? (I don't think so, because that DJ gears must involve digital data).

BTW, have you ever seen the Karaoke machine? this machine can also change the pitch/key without changing the speed. So if you have a minus one music which the music is to low for your voice then you can increase the key without making the music faster.

So, this is my cheap solution (combining the old tech with the new one), you can use this feature from Karaoke machine by hooking up the output sound from your projector and increase the pitch/key from that machine.

I think you can download the software freely in the internet.

what do you think?
[Wink]

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 09, 2009, 10:07 AM:

Hi, Winbert! Being a musician and audio technician for six years I know very well what pitch adjustment is [Wink]

The problem is however the fps in general. I played the Star Wars reel with my computer playing the DVD next to it, and the difference was noticeable.

I will do some more testing tonight, I'll bring my projector home from my fiancee's place (where I have it now) and back home where I have a wider selection of tools and materials, and I will begin a full rinse and clean, and I will lubricate the machine, sand the drive discs and wheel, and reset the speed adjustment, which should make the projector "as good as new".

Hopefully it will fix my problem.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 09, 2009, 10:49 AM:

Christian,

My last advice, see this Ebay auction:

Silma Sound Projector

If no one bids than it will be GBP 4.99. Hopefully no one is attracted with this because of the sound problem. But you are an audio technician, maybe you can fix it.

The most simple problem for "no-sound problem" is that people forget to re-attach the speaker wire after opening the back cover.

Second simple problem is the amplifier's fuse has blown out. But the most complex problem is of course the amplifier has burnt out because of short circuit. But if you know how to find the sound output wire from the projector's magnetic head, then you hook this up with your external amplifier and ...voila.... you have your own home theatre with terrific sound coming from external speakers!!

[Wink]

cheers,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 09, 2009, 11:39 AM:

Nice find there, Winbert [Big Grin]

If I can't manage to fix the one I have then I'll definately have a look at it. If it's problems as simple as the ones you are mentioning then it's no problem for me to fix.

It's when it gets down to mechanical issues that I begin having problems [Wink]

Anywho, taking the projector home with me tonight to let my dad have a look at it, he's pretty good with machinery, otherwise I'll let my neighbour take a look at it as he's an electrician.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 09, 2009, 01:03 PM:

Christian,
Caution! The sound doesn't work... so how sure can you be that it also doesn't have other problems, such as speed?
After all, it was the sound that alerted you to a speed problem on the one you have. "Fully working apart from the sound" is no REAL description at all. (And shipping to Norway could be high)

Martin

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 10, 2009, 12:46 AM:

Yeah, I've thought of that aswell.

A new thing occured to me last night after reading the thread you linked over and over.

My screening rdom is cold, really cold. The window is leaking, and there's a vent that can't be closed, making it quite chilly in there during winter time (at this very moment it is below zero).

Anyway, this can cause the grease to harden/stiffen, making the machine slower, at least that's what my father told me. Unless you use grease that is designed for low temperatures, the grease will turn rather "gluey" if too cold.

So I'm currently "heating up" the projector by setting it to "Forward" without using the lamp, and having a heating fan blowing straight to the machinery. Hopefully this will heat up the grease and machinery enough to help at least abit.

Will get back to you with results.

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on November 10, 2009, 04:32 AM:

Hi Christian
The motor pivots are moulded in plastic so they must be in good condition to maintain pressure between the pinion & rubber drive plate.
You can see the outer pivot easily once the cover is off.
This mounting can also be adjusted to get maximum speed by loosening the outer motor pivot screws & sliding it within its range of travel. Its on an eccentric mounting to allow for adjustment.
You will find it will increase or decrease the driven speed according to where the pinion is located on the drive plate. It has to be exactly in the right place or it will run slow.
Make sure its all bone dry by spraying with evaporative cleaner & a light sanding of the rubber surface to remove any shiny rings where the pinion runs on the rubber.
So try adusting the pivot mounting to the fastest you can get.
Do it while its running. It might take a while to find the spot.
Make sure it doesn't need lubrication at the intermittent camgroove & shuttershaft bearings & other points needing oil.

Let us know if you have success. [Wink]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 10, 2009, 02:34 PM:

Christian,

Re Silma projector (which is until now still GBP 4.99) actually you can ask the seller to check the sound through earphone output. If he hook up the earphone/headphone to the outlet and he can hear the sound, it means the amplifier is OK.

cheers,

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 10, 2009, 02:52 PM:

Will do!

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on November 10, 2009, 02:52 PM:

And then he will withdraw the Auction and re-list it at an inflated price!
Martin

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 10, 2009, 03:47 PM:

quote:
And then he will withdraw the Auction and re-list it at an inflated price!

Ha...ha....ha Martin, that exactly what I was thinking about.

But who knows.... it is like a gamble.

cheers,

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