8mm Forum: Why Digital When You Own Film?

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Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on October 28, 2009, 08:29 PM:

Why do film collectors who avidly buy celluloid and the equipment to show film still buy into the digital projection medium? Is it a greater title assortment or is there some benefit to owning both that I'm not seeing? I would think a movie buff would just choose one or the other, but not both. If anything it's got to be bloody expensive.

Posted by Wayne Tuell (Member # 1689) on October 28, 2009, 09:09 PM:

I originally got a digital projector to have a huge screen gaming experience with my kids. Now that I have it, I do show some movies, either DVD or Laser Disk using it that "A" I CAN'T find in film, "B" don't feel like paying the price for the film.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 28, 2009, 09:25 PM:

Film collecting has always been a very expensive hobby, adding a video projector into a home cimema set up gives you and others the chance to watch say eg the latest movie on DVD or Blu-ray at a fraction of the cost of buying a feature on film and thats if its even available.

Although buying a VP is still expensive its a lot less than what it was years ago, also I guess the introduction of DVD gave you a quality that video could not, for me the days of buying a new 100-200 pound feature are long gone... only shorts now.

The one thing I dont understand is why people sell of their films and projectors for VP. I think thats a mistake. I look on film and film projection quite different than VP projection and feel both have their use, also I have much on film thats not available on any other format likewise with DVD. I guess it all comes down to choice of what you want to watch, running VP and film can give you that.

Graham.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 28, 2009, 09:56 PM:

I'm getting a video projector for Christmas. This will put a large variety of material onto my screen that’s been impossible before. For example we'd like to watch the next Winter Olympics on the big screen.

This is a supplement though, and will never replace reel film on a 30 year old projector. There's certainly the tinker factor, and also the fact that there is a lot of good content that I've scrounged together in my film collection over many years that doesn't exist on video either!

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on October 28, 2009, 10:06 PM:

Well, I have HiDef, but not as projection; I have a 58-inch Panasonic plasma with a Playstation 3 for Blu-Ray playback.

I love films, but they are the ones that are 'bloody expensive'; even in 16mm, getting decent prints (with normal color) is becoming prohibitive for major titles.
I pick and choose carefully. Luckily I love B/W [Wink]

Meanwhile, I am getting new Blu-Rays at good prices, depending on the film and the source:
"Snow White, Diamond Edition" (2 BR discs + 1 DVD): $10 + $3 shipping from one of Amazon's sellers.

"2001": $12.50 with shipping.

"A Bridge Too Far": $10 at CostCo.

Quite a difference when money's not abundant. Still, I keep looking at prints, and when a good one shows up, I do jump into the fray. That fever won't go away [Big Grin]

Re: projection. I do think that, space permitting, when the time comes where the big Panny is wearing out (I hope in more than 5 years) I will look at a projector instead of a dedicated set, as most likely I won't be able to get a plasma replacement set then.
By then, the contrast ratios and general improvement of the projectors should be quite amazing (resembling the 16000-lumen monsters we currently see on the corporate video jobs.)

Still, firing up the 16mm Xenon and running "The Last Laugh" or "On the Waterfront" is, for lack of a better phrase, just a much more 'organic' experience, much like when I listen to music transferred from my turntable to my reel-to-reel. All analogue, all in its original domain.

Claus.

Posted by Thomas Murin, Jr. (Member # 1745) on October 28, 2009, 10:58 PM:

Last year, I got a video projector and an 80" screen. The projector is the excellent Panasonic AX200 which, though 720p, actually rivals 1080p projectors in terms of picture quality. I have been enjoying my huge DVD and Blu-Ray collection more than ever. Old movies in particular as I can now get an idea of how they played in their original theatrical run.

So, why did I spend $1,100 for a Super 8mm projector and an additional $60 on a 40" portable screen? Easy. Film has an unique look and feel to it than digital video. There ARE Blu-Rays out there that come damn close to looking and feeling like film, but they are rare.

Going film is a dream I've had for many years. I am enjoying my new collection immensely. There is a thrill in threading the machine and hearing the sound of the film going through the projector. Not to mention that seeing a movie in as close to it's orignal format as possible.

Expensive, yes. In fact, after my current deals are done I'm going to have to stop and let my accounts build back up. But when they have, I'll jump right back in. [Smile]

Hopefully, I'll have enough then to make my first purchase from Derann.

I only plan on a small collection. A few shorts but mostly digests and a select few features. The features will be run as a special treat. I am thrilled to now have a choice of film and video and hope to enjoy both collections for many years to come.

I should explain before anyone asks, that I cannot use the 80" screen for film as the shelf is WAY too narrow to accomadate a projector with reels. I set up the 40" screen in a corner of the room and it works fine. I'll try and take some pictures of my HT soon so everyone can see for themselves.

Tom

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 29, 2009, 01:09 AM:

Why wouldn't you want both? I've had both for many years and it's great. I use the DLP projector for more recent films and stuff that I can't get on film easily.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 29, 2009, 08:47 AM:

I can answer this one pretty easily ...

I buy DVD so that I can watch a film that I would never shell out two or three hundred pounds new, on film, for a mere two or three bucks!

Therefore, all that is in my collection are films that I really want to see on the big screen in they're original format.

I know I've posted them before, but I am so honored to have the films that I so cherished as a child, as film prints in my collection ...

Logans Run
STAR WARS
Close Encounters
Alien
Poltergeist

.... and all in scope! We are fortunately that those that love film, also had the good sense to make great picks for Super 8 feature releases!

DVD/Laserdisc projection has grown by leaps and counds, even since the early 90's when I bought my first of two sharpvision TV's Back then, the line resolution on those big babies weren't so hot, but in lieu of film projection , (I had sold my original Super 8 collection; looking back .... STUPID STUPID STUPID!!), it was the next best thing.

To this day it will be, and only be, the next best thing.

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on October 29, 2009, 10:16 AM:

Okay....Now my next question....Without risking going bankrupt, what do I look for in a good inexpensive digital projector for simply watching movies on either a screen or a big white wall (no gaming - just movies)? Also, which is better with televisions...LCD or Plasma? Again, all just for normal tv viewing and movies.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 10:22 AM:

I own both a digital projector and a super 8 projector, and the reason is simple, and that is the selection of media.

Personally, I own several DVD and/or BluRay boxsets like "The Three Stooges collection", and I want to be able to show them on the big screen like I do with my reels, but gathering all 190 shorts on Super8, that would be very time- and money consuming.

That, and new films. I want to be able to enjoy newer films like "Mamma Mia!" (yes, I like ABBA, I'm from Norway) without having to pay hundreds of pounds to have it brought to reels.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 29, 2009, 10:48 AM:

This is an interesting discussion:

It's the exact opposite question people usually ask!

It still implies you have to make a choice when you don't.

Why own a car when you own a bicycle?
Why have a daughter when you have a son?
Why watch TV and read books too?

Why...not?!

Most of the folks that call us "Anoraks" forget that the real difference between us and them is they won't use film, but most of us will use video.

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on October 29, 2009, 12:49 PM:

Good one, Steve!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 29, 2009, 12:58 PM:

Good point, Steve ...

If you were to ask the average person, they would assume that buying a Super 8 print of something easily gotten on DVD, (for a lot less), is settling for subpar, when they could have the glory and splendor of BR or DVD. They don't understand why film is, (and, in my opinion) and always will be, superior to digital.

...
keeping in mind getting a good print on film because, after all, not all Super 8 prints are equal.

The only advice I can give on digital projectors, is that you can't go wrong with a SHARP brand projection TV. They were one of the firast on the market and they're merchendise is top notch in all categories. I have owned two, (the last one I bought in 1999), and that second one still works as good as whyen I first bought it, and with the parts and labor "insurance" that I bought with it, the LCD panels have all been replaced for free and it works brilliantly.

Are the projectors coming out today as good with parts/labor and overall stability of operation?

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 29, 2009, 01:18 PM:

Before you buy a video projector, you need to decide a few things
1) Resolution - do you want a projector that can handle 1080P (Blu Ray) or just standard 480P video. Standard projectors are a lot cheaper. Note that almost any projector out there can display both NTSC and PAL.

2) Technology - LCD, DLP or DLA (LCOS).
DLA (LCOS) is the best, but it's EXPENSIVE. The JVC RS-20 for instance sells at about $6000. I personally don't like LCD.

The key is to find somewhere to look at a projector before you buy it - or have someone who you trust tell you that they like it. Don't just go buy something....

You can get a standard def projector used on ebay dirt cheap -- I had one go bad on me (a Sharp PG-M20x) and bought a replacement for it for $200. It's a terrific projector if all you care about is SD. Another good one is the Infocus X-1. (Both of these are long out of production, but you can get them super cheap used).

For HD projectors - the JVC DLA projectors are stunning, but expensive. I just recently bought an OPTOMA HD806 (DLP) projector which I quite like.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 29, 2009, 01:27 PM:

Now we are going someplace I need to go...

Here's my situation:

Throw: about 20 feet
Screen: 52" by 92" Matte

Will a standard resolution projector put a nice image up on this screen? I really don't ever expect to need to go bigger, since this was the biggest screen that would fit behind the curtains on our living room window.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 29, 2009, 01:35 PM:

I was running my SD projector on a 9ftx12ft screen and it looked fine. The key is to make sure you have enough brightness for your screen size - in my case, I try to find projectors that have at least 1500 lumens (preferably 2000). If you have a smaller screen you can go with a projector that puts out less light. If you consider the fact that an ELC 250W lamp puts out about 650 lumens in a 3-blade projector, you can use that to judge what you would need.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 29, 2009, 01:52 PM:

Have to agree with Steven on this; the JVC LCOS (or D-ILA as they call it) are stunning. I've owned mine for a few months and it is the best video projector I have owned by quite some margin. And I've owned (or should that be "thrown away money on") quite a few over the years.

One thing to watch out for when you choose is the flexibilty of the lens zoom. Many video projectors are designed for BIG pictures with small throws and and such, if you have a decent throw (which 20ft is) you may struggle to get the image small enough believe it or not! Worth checking out the lens specs. before deciding.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on October 29, 2009, 02:05 PM:

Steve, when you go that big (92x52 inches) anything below 720p is out of the question (720p = 1280x720). I would recommend getting a Full HD projector and a computer with BluRay or a BluRay-player.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 29, 2009, 02:52 PM:

The one serious flaw with the JVC is the brightness. I had a vendor bring one to my house to demo and while the picture was absolutely stunning, it was just way too dim (the RS-10 has a brightness of 1000 lumens I think) for my screen size.

I really hope they come out with a 2000 lumen version soon...

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 29, 2009, 03:23 PM:

OK,

How about this one?:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/644599-REG/Epson_V11H331020_705HD_Powerlite_Home_Cinema.html

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 29, 2009, 03:23 PM:

It's a fair point Steven. My screen is 6ft wide and at that size the whites are retina burning. It has a 3 step aperture and you have to run it mid-way at the very brightest! But, yes 12ft is lot more screen to fill!

Pity they don't make a brighter version as you say, because the inky black levels produced by D-ILA are awesome and bring the look just a little bit closer to REAL film!

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on October 30, 2009, 03:28 PM:

I own the Panasonic AX200U and positively love it. It brought back the spark of wanting to watch movies on the big screen at home. It's been 18 months since I got the machine, and only last week did I watch a movie on TV since getting the Panasonic. I have allergies and was not feeling good this particular night, so I was not up to the task of sitting in the basement for the movie.

But anyways, the vast titles available at such a low price. I don't buy new super 8 features anymore but might in the future to do my part of supporting the hobby.

However, I would suggest that unless you got the buckaroos, a video projector should NOT replace your standard TV. These bulbs in these machines are very expensive to replace. Even though they last a long time, $300.00+ for a bulb when it's due.

Watch TV on TV. Watch movies on the big screen.

And despite the greatness of having a video projector - let me tell you I still would rather run a pair of ST1200HD machines than a DVD player hooked up to a video projector.

Just my two cents on this subject.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on October 30, 2009, 03:35 PM:

I don't agree with you Chip -- I use the DLP projector for everything video -- I haven't used my tv set in years (In fact the TV I have I bought in the mid 90s).

The lamps in the projectors last 2000 hours -- at $300 a lamp, you're talking 15 cents an hour to run it. Big deal. And by the time you actually wear out the lamp, it will probably be time to get a new projector anyway...

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 30, 2009, 03:53 PM:

I totally agree with Chip on this - don't use your video projector for anything but movies. If you use it all the time to watch TV, the magic goes away. Much better to keep it for that special movie occasion.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 30, 2009, 07:20 PM:

I only use the video projector for mostly features "something special" not for TV stuff. The Plasma in the house can do that. The projector is a Panasonic PT-AX200E and I run it in the Eco-mode which looks fine with full black masking and a room that can give me total darkness. It may not be top of the range but can achieve very good results with normal DVD.

One last thing [Roll Eyes]

and its a comment I made about projectors at work the other day with our part time projectionist who has reached the grand old age of sixteen [Roll Eyes]

and the owner of the "Eumig 940, I said that video projection is the way of the future... he replied... yes it was but you cant compare...pixels with film....and I thought [Roll Eyes]

yes thats right this kid has got it right "good on him" If anyone has any boxes of Super8 film to give away both him and my son want more [Smile]

Graham.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 01, 2009, 12:45 PM:

Well, I second the views on using video projection for films. Projection, video or film in our house is reserved for feature films and theatrical stuff only!

That way, the trip upstairs to the "cinema" remains special, even when it's just me on my lonesome [Smile]

!

Personally, I think that HD material is giving new life to re-creating cinema at home. But it still requires careful choices, care and showmanship...enjoyable digital presentation is not available at "the press of a button", despite what many advocates may say.

In my book, great quality film is still the best and, more importantly, the most FUN!

Besides, I think that anyone who is used to handling and presenting REAL film, in any format, has a huge advantage when it comes to assessing and presenting digital versions.

Just my thoughts [Smile]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on November 01, 2009, 04:43 PM:

I have always wanted a video projector but I have never had one. My reasoning was always to show my own films that I have made (on video) up on the big screen.

I have to agree with the notion of keeping TV shows on the TV. I think if you watched everything on the BIG screen it would take away the MAGIC of theatrical presentation.

Bill

Posted by John Almond (Member # 1782) on November 01, 2009, 05:29 PM:

Im in the same frame of mind regarding using the PJ, I only use it to watch movies. I bought a panny AE500 about 3 years ago and have still only got 1900 ish hours on the bulb, picture is bright, blacks are good and coupled with the denon amp, (again about 3 years old) and the 5 speakers and my good old sub I cant complain. But on another note I cant wait to run a good Q 8mm film through a decent projector.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on November 01, 2009, 06:16 PM:

I have access to several DLP Panasonic 5000 series projectors and have never used one at home!

I like my film in 8, 9.5, 16 and 35. I enjoy seeing first release films in the cinema and watching TV on TV.

Maybe one day I'll bring a video projector home, but I love the mgic of film.

David

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 01, 2009, 07:53 PM:

To me, projectors are "normal" not something special. After years and years of watching 16mm on a 12ft wide screen, I can't bear to watch a TV set. Just looks too tiny....

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on November 07, 2009, 06:21 PM:

Has anybody experienced the same quirk in viewing digital/TV versus film projection as I have? I have recently noticed that
films I saw projected old school film projection, I remember the film in detail. Even the latest (and decent) films I have seen digitally I hardly remember seeing them, let alone details about the film. This includes seeing a digital projection in a theater.
Am I nuts, or is there something to this? All I know is that projecting real film is a hobby, putting a plastic disc in a player is not.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 07, 2009, 06:58 PM:

Wow David that is an interesting question! I have to confess that I have noted the same phenomenon , hope its not Alzheimers setting in ! [Eek!]

But seriously, could it be that the brain does not 'remember' digital images in quite the same way as analog images? That could be a whole research project for somebody.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 08, 2009, 02:06 AM:

I thought this was just me getting old.

I wonder if there is something to this.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 08, 2009, 08:26 AM:

When I was at college I wrote a dissertation on something similar to this!

Can't remember it exactly, but it was basically about why film, ie. projected film in a cinema seems to be perceived differently to video, ie. on television.

I'd have to look it all back up, but I'm sure it was special effects whizz Douglas Trumbell who put forward one theory.

It went something like this...because film uses a shutter and flicker to create the persistance of vision, when you consider it, a lot of the time during each second of film, that cinema screen actually has no image on it...is blank when the shutter is in place...and yet your conscious brain percieves constant motion. So is the sub-conscious "inventing" or creating the missing information?

TV, alternatively (or say, video projection) although it may be using interlace, actually has more "image" per second than film...in other words the screen is blank for less time each second than with projected film. So maybe the sub-conscious has less work to do in order to percieve motion.

So, when you watch a projected image, your brain is actually being more inventive...(albeit sub-conciously) than when you watch video, or TV.

Result; your mental involvement in the moving image is hightened.

[Smile]

Only a theory!

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on November 08, 2009, 09:45 AM:

Paul, while it might just be the early onset of Alzheimers... I hope not! This is just something that over time I have noticed and really wonder about. I once thought that it was because going to a movie theater and seeing the film on a huge screen was the reason I remembered it more, that didn't hold out as I have now seen several movies projected digitally in a theater with the same result as if I had watched a DVD at home. One example recently is back in February, 2009 I traveled up the road to Dayton, Ohio to the Victory theater to see a pristine 35mm print of "12 O'clock High" starring Gregory Peck. I thought I had seen this film many times (all on TV). Seeing it like the audience saw it when it was made was a very special experience for me. I remember everything about that day, but I can't remember what movie I rented on DVD and watched last week...

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