8mm Forum: splicer help

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Posted by Rob Buttrum (Member # 1182) on January 08, 2010, 07:17 PM:

Hello all. i am new to this forum and would like some opinions on splicers. I am working on an experimental 8mm film and need to start cutting and splicing.. i have a few cheap butt splicers and i also have a decent Revere curv-a-matic cement splicer(the one that overlaps the film slightly for you when you bring the arm down).. this is the splicer i was planning on using, however i have read that tape is superior to cement. i dont feel comfortable using the cheap butt splicers because they seem cheap and the tape not strong (may be wrong), But i have heard many good things about the Ciro Guillotine style splicer. i know they are harder to find and are a little more pricey, but are they worth it? also i hear the 16mm version is easier to find and CAN be used for 8mm by folding the excess tape to the other side and re-perforate the holes again. (so should i be on the look out of a ciro 16 mm splicer (since i want to get into 16mm eventually anyway)..

so sorry for the long winded rant
but basically what i need to know is should i use what i have or search or something else and should it be tape or cement?

also is anyone aware of a ciro splicer for sale anywhere?

any help is appreciated!!

-Rob

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 08, 2010, 09:34 PM:

Tape Splicing vs. Cement Splicing is akin to Religion or Politics. Opinions run strongly one way or the other with or without facts to back them up!

The truth (my 'truth') is a well made tape splice is better than a badly made cement splice, but a well made cement splice beats a well made tape splice. Cement splicing is like welding film: it's no longer two pieces, but one which will last as long as the film itself.

Of course if you are splicing polyester film, there are no well made cement splices because cement only works on acetate.

My splicer of choice is the Bolex bevel splicer. It makes solid, flat splices that pass through the projector quietly and can be striped over.

Posted by frank arnstein (Member # 330) on January 08, 2010, 09:36 PM:

Hi Rob
I suggest one of the tape splicers is the easiest.
No worries about running out of premade joiners with these and they are quick to use.
If you make sure the film is clean, then the tape will be strong enough to hold the splice.
The other types are fiddly although the Agfa Automatic is great when you are shown how to use it. Splices are hard to come by though.
Try them all if you like but the tape ones win hands down in my book.
good luck in the search
dogtor [Smile]

Posted by Rob Buttrum (Member # 1182) on January 09, 2010, 12:31 AM:

Steve: thanks for the advice.. but is the Bolex bevel splicer, a cement splicer?

also how do know if you have a "well made cement splice"? would i achieve that with the revere curv-a-matic splicer i have or would that be considered a bad cement splice, or are you referring to the precision of the splice, and how well its done, rather than the machine that is used...

also sorry for my stupidity but how do you know if the film you are using is poly or acetate.

Frank:
also thanks for the advice. if i were to use a tape splicer, will something like a cheap tower brand quik splice butt splicer or should i look for something better than that?

Posted by John Davis (Member # 1184) on January 09, 2010, 05:22 AM:

I'm siding with Frank - tape splices; I used to use a wurker splicer and Wurker splices but these became harder to find so I switched to the more readily available Hama tape splices, these work happily on the Wurker splicer.
Over the last couple of years I've been using an Agfa automatic tape splicer instead of the Wurker splicer purely because it is faster to use, again it happily accepts the Hama splices.
The Hama leave the magnetic main sound track clear and the Wurker left both the main and balance sound track clear. I'm guessing the films are being shot without a sound track so this difference is probably academic.
Rob, the easiest way to tell if a film is polyester is let it hang off the reel, it will usually hang straight down if it's polyester and doesn't have a 'memory' of the curve around the reel. The other obvious way is to try and do a cement splice - because it won't stick!
Rather annoyingly in the past companies made ready made titles such as 'our holidays' and 'wedding' and these were often produced on polyester which gave problems to film makers who had always cement spliced their films. It was compounded by the fact that polyester was thinner than acetate and this meant the projectionist had to refocus for the titles.

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on January 09, 2010, 07:48 AM:

I'm partial to the Ciro/Guillotine, as that's what I worked with when I worked with 35 and 70mm. And with many prints being made of polyester, cement just will not do. With a take splice, you can make that splice in 10 seconds, and you're done!

But this is just my preference.

They do show up on Ebay from time to time.... I'm thinking in the past 3 months, I saw 5-6 Ciro's, both the plastic and metal style.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 09, 2010, 01:13 PM:

The Bolex is a cement splicer. It cuts the edges of the film at angles that allow a larger contact area for the cement, but make for no difference in thickness at the splice.

A good cement splice has full (but not excessive) coverage of cement with no air bubbles and long enough cure time (I allow 30 seconds). It often looks exactly like a bad splice, but if you grab the film about 2 inches on either side of the splice and give it a 180 degree twist, the bad splices fall apart.

Cement splicing is an art: making good ones starts with making some bad ones and learning from it!

Posted by Rob Buttrum (Member # 1182) on January 10, 2010, 12:21 PM:

ok cool thanks for the advice guys.

but a few more questions... i found out that my film IS acetate, so i can use cement. now when using my splicer the Revere curv-a-matic, do i want to put cement on BOTH sides of the film being bonded together or just the one side that is scraped? also the splicer i have when bringing the lever down to splice/ cement it automaticly pulls the film on the left side over to overlap it to the right side. how do i make sure the splicer is pulling the film OVER the one with cement and not under it...

or should i just look for something better?

-Rob

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 10, 2010, 12:42 PM:

I don't think you absolutely have to put cement on both surfaces, but I usually do just for confidence. This means I have to be a little more sparing with the brush because it becomes easier to put too much on.

I'd say If the splicer gives you satisfactory results there's no reaon for an "upgrade". I used one I bought in a department store when I was a teenager for about 30 years and only went to the Bolex when I made films that needed to be sound striped.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on January 10, 2010, 01:49 PM:

A couple of points on splicing.

When we still edited features on film, we used tape exclusively. It allowed you to take a cut apart and put frames back in if necessary. When the pictures was locked and sent off for negative cutting, then the film was assembled in order and spliced with cement at the lab.

Hot splicers set a splice almost instantly where as a "cold" splicer will take 30 seconds or so. Cement gets old when exposed to air so cap your bottle quickly. In the lab we would dump our cement and refill every four hours or so.

Also method of application is important. With an cold splicer, make sure the emulsion is cleaned (scaped) off to the film base. It's also important that the mating surface is clean. It's wise to clean or rough up the surface with a little emery board. Apply the cement with a brush on the scaped surface and quickly close the splicer. Then I open the side that's not clamping the film and wait for the splice to set. Normally I use a B&H (Triad/M-H all the same machine) hot splicer so it's seconds before I can open the jaws and extract the film.

Another drawback to splcing a single roll is the splice is visible on the screen. When preparing 16mm for printing, we cut the film into A&B rolls and spliced so that the overlap was always hidden by the black leader between shots. In 35mm the problem doesn't exist because of the wide frame-line. In 8mm the splice overlap can be 1/4 of the frame. In this case it's best to arrange your splice so that the overlap is on the bottom of the frame since the subject matter is usually darker and hides the line more (the top being light like a sky).

A carefully made tape splice without inclusions or dirt can pass through without much notice, but the tape will cover several frames and thus be "on screen" for a longer time than the overlap of a cement splice.

If you use tape, trim the tape so that it aligns with the frame lines and doesn't end mid picture which can be very noticeable.

John

Posted by Bryan Chernick (Member # 1998) on May 11, 2010, 03:08 PM:

I have a question about cement splicing. I recently picked up the Revere curv-a-matic cement splicer and have been practicing on old leader to learn how to do it. So far I have had great success, that splicer works great and makes it very simple. The splicer came with some old Kodak film cement that has a yellow tint to it, I understand that is due to age. Will the yellow affect the film or the bond much? Not that the yellow color is a big deal since it is only applied at the splice but so far it seems to be bonding quite well.

Posted by Rob Buttrum (Member # 1182) on December 15, 2010, 10:26 PM:

another question.. iv been practicing splicing with some old film with my Revere curv-a-matic cement splicer, and have run into these problems...

1. when using this splicer as you bring the lever down to join the splice, it automatically pulls the film over itsself to make the bond with a spring loaded device, but when lifting up (after the splice is made) the splice is made but there is an instant pull on the splice because not the spring loaded device is trying to pull back to the original position, there fore putting strain on the fresh splice, sometimes pulling back apart? is this normal? or am i doing something wrong?

also at times the cement does not seem to be bonding and i know the cement is new and the film is NOT poly, do you think is can have anything to do with the film being too old?

thanks for any help or advise!

-Rob

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on December 16, 2010, 03:14 AM:

Having done quite a bit of cine to video transfer work for customers in recent years I can advise that cement splices are inferior to tape splices. It's a rare occasion a 40 year old tape splice breaks but a common occurence on cement joins.

So if you hope to keep your film for any length of time get a tape splicer. I prefer the Fuji Single 8 splicer to anything else as it only covers two frames and is the most simple splicer I've ever known. Getting the tape may be problematic in the future though.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on December 16, 2010, 08:55 AM:

Tape splicers all the way!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 16, 2010, 09:07 AM:

To me it's a matter of what can be done well.

I'd much rather drive a car with a manual transmission: you get more power down at the wheels, the fuel economy is better, the durability is better, and you have more control over the car. (...and it's more fun!)

-But

Rather than see somebody smoke a clutch every couple of months or scatter pieces of the gearbox all over the road, I'd much rather see them driving an automatic.

Much the same: I prefer cement, but a well made tape splice still beats a badly made cement splice.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on December 16, 2010, 02:38 PM:

I use both.
With tape, roll tape is easy to work with in combination with a Ciro-type guillotine splicer.
If you want to use cement, I highly recommend this motorized Hahnel or its Braun equivalent. It runs on an ordinary battery:

The rotating aluminum clamps hold the film and run the ends past the motorized circular burr head in the middle.

Once "ground", both ends of the film are in fine alignment and you apply a stripe of glue on the right piece of film, bring both ends in alignment, and close the pressure arm. 30 secs wait and you should be done.

Claus.

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