8mm Forum: Negative to Positive printing, how did they make in a mass production

This is topic Negative to Positive printing, how did they make in a mass production in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 08, 2010, 11:39 PM:

Perhaps someone can kill my curiosity here.

If in the vinyl mass production there will be a master stamper, and all vinyls are stamped by this master.

In cassette mass production there will be a master tape where hundreds of tape recorder will record at the same time.

So how did they do for 8mm (or 16mm) mass production. Say Ken Films or Castle Films, they had a negative of a digest to make thousands prints. Could they make hundreds prints at the same time. If yes, how did the machine work with one negative?

Please enlighten me.

thanks

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 09, 2010, 02:32 AM:

Hi,

they've normally used a 35mm or 16mm negative as a master and did 2 or 4 prints at once using a 35mm or 16mm wide print film that gets split later on like Double8/Doublesuper8-material.
E.g. KODAK VISION Color Print Film 3383 is available as "35 mm with 16 mm Perforations" and "16 mm with Super 8 Perforations" (page 32 in this PDF: http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/QA_MotionPictureCatalog_June30_2010.pdf ) There also used to be "35mm print film with 4 rows with Super8 Perforations" (at least made by Kodak, Fuji, Agfa, Orwo). But I haven't found it in Kodak's current catalogue ...

Jörg

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 09, 2010, 06:49 AM:

Thanks Joerg,

Do you know, with their printer, How fast is to print for 400 feet?

Supposed to be they used 35mm (with super 8mm perforation, therefore 4 prints at the same time), to make 100 prints at the same time, did they need 25 printer?

cheers

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on August 09, 2010, 07:23 AM:

Winbert, I have only seen 35mm feature films printed, but the films goes through much faster than projection speed. Many prints are able to be made in an hour. I imagine the same happened with Super 8.

David

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 09, 2010, 08:06 AM:

No clue.

This device is "40 frames-per-minute":
http://www.jkcamera.com/optical_printer.htm
However it works with ordinary film as both source and target. Hence a "real" printer that is using special print-film might be much faster.

Some more printers (without data):
http://www.film-photo.eclipse.co.uk/sale.htm

An Italian page shows a B&H-printer that could do 4000m of Super8-film per hour:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/driveapples/stampa.html
(No clue if this is 1000m of 35mm-film splitted into 4x1000m of Super8-film or 4000m of 35mm-film splitted into 4x4000m of Super8-film... my Italian isn't that good. [Wink]

)

Jörg

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 09, 2010, 09:04 AM:

Thansk Joerg and David,

More infos I can learn from here.

If I am allowed for more questions:

1. Do we need to print film in a dark room or can be anywhere?
2. Does the machine go frame by frame when printing it?
3, Is the positive print (per frame) produced rightly after it is passed the same negative frame? in other words, we don't need to wait a couple seconds like Polaroid or positive print still photo?
4. Is checmical used in this printing?

thanks

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 09, 2010, 10:14 AM:

quote:
1. Do we need to print film in a dark room or can be anywhere?

Depends on the machine. Most machines only have to be loaded in darkness, but then can be operated "with light".

quote:
2. Does the machine go frame by frame when printing it?

Yes.

quote:
3, Is the positive print (per frame) produced rightly after it is passed the same negative frame? in other words, we don't need to wait a couple seconds like Polaroid or positive print still photo?

I don't get that question - "print film" is "ordinary" film except that it's designed specially for this purpose. Hence it only gets exposed in the printer (instead of in a camera) and has to be processed later on like every other film.

quote:
4. Is checmical used in this printing?

I don't get that question either. If you mean "wet-gate": Yes, some machines apply this technology.

Jörg

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 09, 2010, 11:33 AM:

quote:
quote: 3, Is the positive print (per frame) produced rightly after it is passed the same negative frame? in other words, we don't need to wait a couple seconds like Polaroid or positive print still photo?

I don't get that question - "print film" is "ordinary" film except that it's designed specially for this purpose. Hence it only gets exposed in the printer (instead of in a camera) and has to be processed later on like every other film.

I am thinking like today's paper printer, when we hit the button "print" then in a second we will see the result.

Since you say that " print film: is the same with "ordinary" film .... and has to be processed later on like every other film ", did you mean than they need to bring to the lab for processing (say like today with K14 or E6 process?) after getting printed through optical printer?

quote:
quote: 4. Is checmical used in this printing?

I don't get that question either. If you mean "wet-gate": Yes, some machines apply this technology.

I believe, if I can understand your further explanation on the previous question, I will understand that no chemical used during optical printing. Thanks [Wink]

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on August 09, 2010, 07:57 PM:

Winbert-Here is a good example of a printer with the gate open. The negative lays on top of the printer where the sprockets and slit for light are. The print stock is laid on top of the negative. Then a big rubber roller goes on top of that to keep the negative and print stock together properly. I had a super 8mm contact printer where you would put a double super 8mm negative and print stock such as this one. The super 8mm printer that prints multiple prints is a little different as it uses a 16mm negative that goes through mirrors that splits the image into multiple prints. On my printer it took about 15 minutes to do one whole feature. These kind of printers were done in complete darkness as the print stock was in the open and not in a magazine. So there is no shutter or pull down claw, just sprockets that drive the negative and film stock. Then the print stock was developed normally in a print developer.

A 'wet gate' printer is similar but the printing gate is immersed in a container that is filled with perchlorethylene, a chemical that removes, or actually hides, base scratches, and some abrasions.

Hope this all makes sense.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 10, 2010, 03:05 AM:

quote:
did you mean than they need to bring to the lab for processing (say like today with K14 or E6 process?) after getting printed through optical printer?

Yes ;-) Those "printers" are -more or less- only a specialized camera. They don't "print", they only expose the film.
(That's why the "Optical Printer K107" by JK (s. above link) is shown with a Bolex H16: That printer only is an "add-on" to the camera.)
As for the lab: Some machines are rumoured to have a processing device at their end. So the film will leave the machine exposed and processed. However I've only seen photos of those devices. And most photos lacked such information.

BTW: Edward Nowill (UK) is selling Kodak's 16mm-b&w-print-film 7302 as "double8"-film (after adding the missing perforation holes)... when exposed with a normal Double8-camera, the film has to be exposed as 10, 12 or 16 ASA (I forgot the correct value, sorry).

Jörg
P.S.: Another link:
http://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/audiovisual_terms/audiovisual_item.php?t erm=Contact%20Printing

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on August 10, 2010, 08:19 AM:

Hi,

I just found the "print your own films with an inkjet-printer"-link again:
http://www.bsattler.com/blog/?p=118
Not sure whether it's a hoax or whether it's really working [Wink]

Jörg

Posted by William Mouroukas (Member # 2764) on October 23, 2011, 06:57 AM:

I remember reading about this back in the 70's and seeing a photo of the S8 perforated rows in a 35mm film. I can't remember if it was already striped but I think it was.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 23, 2011, 08:56 AM:

Interesting series of posts. There are a few things that I have been finding out in all this as well!

It's hard to imagine today, but it was amazing as to just how many super 8 film labs were constantly processing super 8 day and night, to satisfy the demands of the enthusiast.

Every once in a long while, a standard 8mm release will come up on ebay, that hasn't been split. That is, the standard 8mm would be printed two at a time on 16MM, but would be split into the two seperate prints for release. I'd love to see another one of those come up for auction as they are very rare.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on October 23, 2011, 07:18 PM:

Osi,

I have a Double Super 8mm roll of the Castle Films headline edition of The Mummy's Tomb that hasn't been split.

Doug

Posted by William Mouroukas (Member # 2764) on October 24, 2011, 02:45 AM:

So is that how it's done these days? I.e. Double Super 8 then split.

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