8mm Forum: Super 8 and Standard 8 colour film to DVD

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Posted by Phyllis Pratt (Member # 2054) on August 18, 2010, 05:21 PM:

Hello to all readers,

I am a new forum member, just over 80 years old. Please forgive me if any wording is not quite correct. I am new to technology but willing to learn - FAST!

I have a large quantity - about 12 000 feet of Super 8 film and about 4 500 feet of standard 8 film that I would like to convert to digital format on DVDs.

I have a Eumig 610D dual 8 projector, a Bell & Howell 456 dual 8 projector and a Eumig P8 in standard 8mm format only. All the projectors provide good, stable, bright images on a projector screen about 3 ft x 2 ft. All have been fitted with new 'rubber' drive belts and the P8 with new metal belts.

I have a recent, Panasonic, hard disk based camera.

The Eumig 610D has an accessory that can be fitted which provides a small daylight viewer, at 90 degrees to the lens output. It measures approximately 4 inches by 3 inches.

I also have a 'black box' with a plain glass panel on one side and a frosted glass panel at right angles to the input. The frosted glass panel measure approximately 6 inches by 4 inches. I guess there are mirrors in both these items.

I have set up the Eumig 610D on a solid surface and whilst running a film through the projector, with the lamp on, focused the output onto the frosted screen. Image appears to be bright, stable, without whiskers around the gate and the film (Super 8) runs through the projector fine.

The video camera is set up on a very strong tripod and focused on the image. When the camera is recording, there appears to be flashes in the centre of the image. I assumed this was something to do with speed. The film is running at 18 fps - the projector maximum - and the camera is running with a shutter speed of 1/50 second.

I tried experimenting by slowing the projector down - no difference, so back up to maximum. I found that the camera had a slow shutter setting of 1/25 second. This improved the quality of the image to some degree and the flashing has nearly gone.

Now my questions!

1. Am I tackling the problem in the right way? If not, what should I be doing?

2. Am I expecting too much from this project? Are all projectors likely to have this problem?

3. What is white balance? Has this anything to do with the image brightness?

If anyone could point me in the right direction, this would be greatly appreciated.

Regards.

PP

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on August 18, 2010, 08:11 PM:

Hi Phyllis

I'm 63 and I hope when I am your age I do as well as you! Now as far as the flicker I believe you need a projector with a variable speed control. This will sync the flash from the shutter speed with the speed of the video cameras ability to capture the film with out the flicker (flash). Good luck with your transfers.

PatD

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on August 19, 2010, 02:07 AM:

I believe your projectors have 3-bladed shutters which means you need to project at 16.66 frames per second to eliminate the flicker. Two-bladed shutters require a frame rate of 25fps.

The transfer quality you get from using a small daylight viewer will not be very good but hopefully will prove satisfactory. I use an aerial image transfer system but it's bloomin' complicated and to get it 100% takes a lot of time.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on August 19, 2010, 03:08 AM:

Phyllis,
I agree with John; for transfers using your machine you need to run the projector at 16.666 fps to reduce flicker to an absolute minimum. This means that you must then capture into the computer using an Editing Software that can change the speed back up to 18 fps. Also, the ability to finely adjust the speed during the transfer whilst monitoring the "flicker" is helpful.
The interface, in your case a back projection screen, should be as large as possible to avoid a grainy look in the result without being so large as to find brightness a problem.
Before I graduated to much more sophisticated methods I found that the best results for me came from FRONT projecting onto an A4 sheet of good quality matt copying paper in a darkened room, and placing the camera as close to the projector axis as possible. I coped with the difference in contrast range between film and video by allowing a small amount of even "daylight" to fall on the screen, thus reducing the contrast of the projected picture to match the video.
I'm currently 73 and started my experiments into more sophisticated methods about 3 years ago. Being 83 is no bar; if you have an active enquiring mind and some DIY skills you will find plenty written on Amateur Telecine on the web. But you should acquire the technique for good results using the basic methods quite rapidly.
Good luck,
Martin

Posted by Phyllis Pratt (Member # 2054) on August 19, 2010, 06:59 AM:

Thank you for those very helpful pieces of information.

I don't mind getting my hands dirty and enjoy the challenge! I maintain my own computers and quite happy to try experimenting, but not using good film.

Q1. The Eumig 610D has selective speeds of 18, 12, 9, 6, 3 and OFF. These are positive click stops and it doesn't appear to be possible to finely adjust the frame rate. Does anyone know otherwise, please?

Q2. I assume the B&H 456 is out of the running because it has fixed speed or off! Are my assumptions correct?

Q3. The Eumig P8 has a sliding rheostat (I think that is what it is called!) for adjusting frame speed. This projector will only handle the standard 8 films so perhaps I should start with them first? I don't want to spoil any of the 'good' family films so am using odd lengths of film - with headers and tails - to practice with. Can anyone advise of a suitable Super 8 projector that has variable speed adjustment as suggested?

Q4. Within all of the inherited kit is also a Eumig 8 projector.
This has separate sprockets and gates for Super and standard 8 films. It has two fixed speeds - 18 and 24. There is also a Eumig R200 back projection unit but that is basically a 610D attached to a daylight viewing screen measuring 15 x 11 inches. Finally there is a Norris Super 8 sound projector. There is a label attached that indicates the sound board has been disconnected because the push switches were damaged in transit! I cannot find any instructions for this projector so have put it to one side for now ...... . Would anyone know about this projector and speed control?

Q5. Was my idea of trying to slow down the camera shutter speed going in the wrong direction? What about aperture control, would this affect the 'flashing'?

I will start this evening by trying a matt A4 sheet of paper/card as a screen and see how things go. All your help is greatly appreciated.

PP

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on August 19, 2010, 08:12 AM:

The 610D IS a preselected speed (non- variable) projector. However,it it driven by what is known as a "shaded pole" motor, which normally runs at a speed determined by the mains frequency, but can be speed controlled in a "downwards" direction using a Thyristor Motor Speed Controller.The 18 fps setting can be easily taken below 16.666, giving fine control around that speed.But it your other "Eumig" machine that is of the greatest interest. That comes from a series of Eumig ranges that are particularly useful for the purpose because of the ability to show both Standard 8 and Super 8. (A word of caution.... only attempt to use this machine for both types of film if you have the Instruction Manual as there is a very important precaution to take before changing gates!!!).The speed is actually variable in the range between 18 and 24 fps, but not easily during operation. Like the 610D, the motor can be controlled electronically. Please post what actual model this is for further advice on this machine.
The R200 is useful if you prefer to back project; the screen is large enough to reduce the grain effect.
Camera shutter speeds are very much a question of trial and error in this kind of set-up.
May I congratulate you on your observational skills; as a "beginner" your analysis of what you have inherited is surprisingly good.I only wish I had inherited all that in one lump when I started to look at film to DVD transfer... lots of good kit.
Martin

[ August 19, 2010, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on August 19, 2010, 10:33 AM:

You might want to consider a Sankyo Dualux 2000H. No sprockets to ruin film, plays both Super 8 and regular 8 with the flip of a switch, has a bright halogen lamp, very good lens and reostat speed control. Check on Ebay. Good luck!

Posted by Phyllis Pratt (Member # 2054) on August 20, 2010, 05:37 PM:

Thank you to all who have responded. I am taking all of your comments onboard and responding to some of them, now!

The Eumig Mk 8. Super and Standard 8 gates. I have the full instructions and appreciate the caution required when changing the gates, particularly with special reference to the 'red dot'. I notice that this model has a frequency lever but only between 50 and 60 Hz.

There is a small 'black box' with a control knob with mains input and output. It was used, apparently, with a German manufactured fretwork/scroll saw to control the oscillating blade speed. I have taken the top off and had a look inside. One component I have tracked down is a TRIAC. The spec on a web site tells me it is suitable for a min load output of 50W and a max output load of 375W. Minimum operating voltage 90v AC.
The notes go on to say: A range of speed regulators for 230V ac, single-phase, universal motors. Typical applications include power drills, vacuum cleaners, etc. These modules will not accept inductive loads.

As it was in the same box as the projector, I am wondering if it was used with the projector.

Has anyone any ideas if such a controller that would work with the projector is available - anywhere in the EuroZone, please?

Martin, although all of this kit is inherited from my late father, who was 99 years and 364 days old at the time, it is proving stressful in some respects - three generations of family are looking to me (a bit of a doddery old girl really) to provide them with copies of all this film on DVDs! The family is spread over the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and several EU countries. Apparently(!), I am the 'technology' member of the family simply because in pre WWII days I built crystal sets and one valvers for the family. I loved winding the aerial tuning coils on anything 'tubelike' at the time. I don't think any of the sets looked the same .... but they always worked, particularly when the HT battery and the accumulators were fully charged.

Barry, I have checked on eBay and at the moment there is only a Sankyo Dualux 1000 listed, although there are dozens of listing for the drive belts! I'll keep an eye on that front. I note that the lamp for a 1000 is completely different to that fitted to the model 2000. Is that likely to be the only difference, please?

I have made a small A3 sized screen and tried that this evening. It was made using plain white card with a matt finish. The output to the digi-cam appeared to be good but the 'flashing' problem was still very much in evidence. More trials tomorrow evening!

Thanks for your patience in reading all of this.

PP [Smile]

Posted by Vern Dias (Member # 2176) on August 29, 2010, 06:53 AM:

Phyllis, I would like to chat with you regarding this, however your profile is set to both hide your email and to block private mail, so I have no way to contact you.

You can email me and I can share my experiences with you on this subject.

Vern

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on August 29, 2010, 07:40 AM:

Phyllis,
for some reason I did not catch your last post, but catch up now...
The black box you refer to certainly contains what you need for the purpose, though I'm not too happy about the reference to Inductive loads.
However, I have used controllers with that proviso successfully... the only harm you may do would be to the controller and not the projector.
So I would suggest you give it a try....feed the mains into the controller and take the output to the Eumig mains input. Starting with the controller at maximum, run the film and watch the resulting video from the camera on a monitor of some sort (even the camera viewfinder will do). Slowly reduce the speed using the controller; if it can be used OK the projector will slow down and the flicker will become less until the speed is too low; then the flicker will increase again. Just choose the point of least flicker. Then try different camera "shutter speeds" and see what affect it has. Trial and error for the best result.
But note... when you slow the projector, the light output will drop also because the controller also affects the lamp voltage. The auto exposure on the camera may make this unimportant, but the solution (to only be done by someone with proper experience) is to wire the controller into the motor leads only.
If that simple test works, then you're halfway there.And if it does your Eumig is IDEAL for the purpose; many practitioners who have advanced MUCH further than these simple methods use this machine as the basis for their custom modified transfer equipment, achieving very professional results. I am personally modifying one at the moment which will be my Mk4 machine, each one an improvement on the previous one.See here http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000936#000000 for my previous version.
The screen size to use is that which produces the best results for your method of working.
Martin.

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