8mm Forum: Projector overload... help needed.

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Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 12, 2011, 03:43 PM:

I am in the process of wanting to convert my grandmas home 8mm reels to digital. From what I can tell she has a mix of super 8mm, and I believe regular 8mm and a few 16mm reels. And they all seem to have sound. I will probably send away the 16mm ones, because there is only 4 of those - but as far as the 8mm ones i think there is close to 300 (all with sound). So this is not really a project that I want to send them off, i think it will cost too much.

I am not looking for professional/extremely expensive equipment. She had a Kodak 825 projector that I brought in to have someone go through it and clean it and check it out. They said the picture was very clear, but there was no sound. I don't know if this is something to investigate or if I should just find a different one.

I own a Canon ZR65 Digital Camcorder that I plan on using to eventually get to my computer. I purchased a Telecine machine - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220731108622&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT but now I am not real sure I needed that. I have been researching for a few months and just when I thing I know what I want I find something else that brings me in a different direction.

With wanting to record the sound off of the movie onto my camcorder can I ran a audio cable from the mic jack on my camcorder to a jack in the projector? Is that possible?

Any help would be great as I think I am completely overwhelmed at this point. Thanks, Tanya

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on February 12, 2011, 05:31 PM:

Tanya, welcome here.

First of all, congratulations on such a treasure trove of family memories!
Way too many films have been discarded along the way, so I think you have something great to look forward to when they are transferred.

To address some of your specifics:

You said the films have sound. Have you found this out by looking at the edge of the films? 8mm soundtracks are brown magnetic stripes on the edge of the film. I am just checking.

I have no experience with that particular transfer box, but I can address the camcorder issue:

You will find that setting the camcorder in such a way that gives you a flicker-free image is going to be a major challenge.

Projectors used for film transfers have, among other things, variable speed to help give you a flicker-free image in transfer.
If you also have live sound (people speaking on-camera) on the film, it will then affect the pitch of the sound if you vary the projector speed (either squeaky voices or too low.)

The box you bought just passes through whatever the projector shows, and the camera tapes it off the little screen.

As for audio, you can connect the projector's output to the camera, but not directly. You will need a device in-between. The reason for this is that the camera "mic" input is very sensitive and it will overload and sound bad if it gets the projector output without a "padding down" in-between.

There are a couple of ways around it, not "officially correct" ways, but they can work if needed, so if/when you get to that, we can talk.

You need to find a way to hear the sound on your films, if it is live sound or if it was added afterwards (like music) because that, in itself, will make it more or less critical to run the film at its set speed when trying to transfer.
So, first, look at your projector to see if it has an issue, or if your grandma doesn't know how to work the sound. Then run the films and see if they have "live" sync sound.

Many considerations, but let's hear more about this; feel free to ask as many questions as you want. We will do what we can to help you.

Claus.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 13, 2011, 04:39 PM:

Claus,

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

The sound was identified by the brown strip on one side. All of the sound is voices, there is no music or anything added after wards. So it seems I may have to get something else for the sound for "padding". Should I have gotten one of the Telecine machines that has the sound option instead?

I have not actually played the films on the projector I have. I didn't want to do anything with it until I had it serviced. The service guy cleaned it up and he said that the sound was not working on the projector at all. So my next step was to look for a different projector to use.

Thanks
Tanya

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 13, 2011, 07:24 PM:

Tanya: Claus is correct about the sound. To get flicker free transfers you need to adjust the speed of the projector. When transfers are done from silent film, this is accomplished with a projector that has a reostat to adjust the speed of the projector. Don't bother with the transfer box you bought on Ebay. You will generally get better results projecting your image on a bright white sheet of paper on the wall in a dark room. Use an image size of about 6 inches wide. Set your digital camera as close as possible to the projector and film the image while adjusting the speed on the projector until flicker disappears. This is just a quick primer on the subject. Google film transfer to DVD and you will find alot of info. You also need a good authoring software program on your PC. Good luck.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 13, 2011, 10:02 PM:

So when buying a projector I need a variable speed option on it? Is this more than just being able to choose from 18 or 24 for example on the projector? Is there one out there that has this, and does dual 8mm films? Or am I looking at getting 2 different projectors?

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 13, 2011, 10:14 PM:

Tanya: If you are doing Super 8 and regular 8, there are projectors that do both. Yes, you need something more variable than just 18 and 24. I have several Sankyo Dualux 2000H projectors that have the reostat control and are very kind on film as they use pinch rollers rather than sprockets. They use halogen lamps and have a fast lens. If you get one, you may need to replace the drive belt, which is no problem.
Chinon also makes some good projectors and I believe Elmo may make a dual that has variable speed. Again, this is for silent films.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 13, 2011, 10:17 PM:

Do they make a good dual projector with sound? Almost all of my films have sound - family talking.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 14, 2011, 08:29 AM:

I'm not sure about that. The dual that I have (Sankyo 700) that is a sound machine plays Super 8 and Single 8. Single 8 is different than regular (standard) 8. I believe it just has the 18 and 24 speeds.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 14, 2011, 09:22 AM:

So there is actually 3 different 8mm types? Dang... I thought there was only 2. I know I have super 8mm for sure. Is there a quick reference to tell the differences between regular (standard) and single?

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 14, 2011, 09:50 AM:

Tanya,

Single 8 was a film designed by Fuji. It is thinner than Super 8, however it will play in Super 8 projectors.
I just want to make sure before offering advice.....you have sound films in both Regular 8mm and Super 8mm?

Doug

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 14, 2011, 09:56 AM:

Single-8 and Super-8 are the same thing once you get to projecting the film. All the important film dimensions are identical.

It was at the camera end of things they are different. The Super-8 system was developed by Kodak and uses a boxy cartridge that can't be rewound. Single-8 film was developed by Fuji and uses an elongated cartridge that can be backed up for multiple exposures.

A lot of people believe Single-8 is a superior system, but Kodak got there first and set the standard.

It kind of makes Single-8 the Macintosh of 8mm formats!

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 14, 2011, 09:56 AM:

Here is a quick primer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_mm_film

My guess is you have regular 8 and Super 8. I mention the single 8 only because people would buy projectors that they thought were duals to play regular and Super, but found out that they could not play regular 8. Before you make any additional purchases, Google the heck out of the topics so you get a through understanding of what you need to know. The last thing you want to do is spend money on equipment that is not going to serve your purpose. Check this link also. Read through completly.
http://photo.net/video-forum/003WXX

[ February 14, 2011, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Barry Fritz ]

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 14, 2011, 11:40 AM:

Thanks for the link - I guess I better go back through my reels and determine exactly what I have. I am sure I will have some more questions shortly!

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 14, 2011, 12:24 PM:

Tanya if you have (or know a friend who has) a higher end mini-DV camcorder such as Panasonic DVX 100, there is not only a setting 24p that will allow you to transfer the films at sound speed flicker free but it also has various sync settings that will allow you to alter the flicker for the silent speed ones to eliminate it as well.. If you want to email me offline at aytab at aol dott com I can give you more info as I do this all the time and get very nice results...

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 14, 2011, 03:12 PM:

Dino: With that camera can you DV out to the PC as your are filming?

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 14, 2011, 03:40 PM:

Dino is absolutely right. I was going to suggest using either a 24p camera or one with a variable shutter (the DVX100 has Sony's "Synchro-Scan" option) but I wanted to see if Tanya had sound films recorded at 18fps first.

Barry, I've recorded the output of the DVX100 (and many other digital cameras) by firewire using Final Cut Pro's "Capture Now" feature. I'm sure the same could be done with other NLE systems.

Doug

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 14, 2011, 03:50 PM:

yep the camera can record it to tape or be just used as a pass through with the firewire..yep the synchro scan is the man....man [Smile]

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 23, 2011, 08:13 PM:

Well I finally found a projector with sound to rent today!! Got the projector all set up, got my camera all set up with the setting that I felt looked the best and was about to start recording when... the dang belt came off! Not only did it come off but when I went to put it back on I found that it had broke. UGH!!! Back to square one.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 24, 2011, 09:42 AM:

Can anyone help me as far as how do I remove my film from the projector now that the belt is broke? I do not see a release type button and don't want to break the film.

Thanks,
Tanya

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 24, 2011, 09:50 AM:

Sorry for your trouble!

What kind of projector is it?

There are some that allow for film removal mid reel.

-Others you have to run it all the way through or cut it and remove the ends and resplice.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 24, 2011, 10:09 AM:

Thanks Steve for getting back to me... thankfully I got it without having to cut it. It is an Elmo-ST180E. I went through a couple of different Elmo manuals and was able to figure out where the release sprockets where and got it out. Thanks!!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 24, 2011, 10:58 AM:

Excellent!

"Elmo" was the answer I was hoping for!

I've only had to do this once. I decided to experiment with showing films out on the patio: kind of see what might go wrong.

Two things:

1) Bugs
2) Rain

So now there I am back inside the house with a dark projector 200 feet into a 600 foot reel with my mood thoroughly...dampened (Machine and film still dry...)

Then I remembered that Elmos can do this!

I unthreaded the film, rewound it and tried to remember what it was I did before I started collecting films.

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 24, 2011, 11:05 AM:

I was very relieved!! Now I am bummed out because I have to bring it back to the guy to get a new belt. It isn't even an actual belt that broke on it - it looks to be a flexible "O" ring. I don't think I am going to have very good luck with this projector. But we will wait and see...

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 24, 2011, 11:33 AM:

It's a good machine.

The unknown is how well it has been treated in over 30 years out in the wild...

Posted by Tanya Owens (Member # 2452) on February 26, 2011, 08:50 AM:

Well after being able to play about a dozen of the reels it seems like they are all done at 18fps and not the 24fps. The sound was horrible on the films as well - not 100% sure that was the films or the projector though. It had a loud hum and lots of crackling in the background. I am going to buy a projector rather than renting one to do these films I think.

But now what is the trick for transferring the films done at 18fps?? I was already to purchase a different camcorder records in 24p but now I am unsure.

Thanks for any advice!

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