8mm Forum: Kodchrome K40 processing

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Posted by Mark L Barton (Member # 1512) on June 14, 2011, 09:58 AM:

Hi All, is it possible to home develope old rolls of K40 super 8 film? Yes, I know I need a spiral and dev tank (ala LOMO, has any one got one I can buy?)but I am trying to integrate super 8 film usage with my digital video production students within my faculty and to be honest with buying and processing one roll of 100d (comes in at around £30!!!for 3 mins) Am figuring if I can buy up old rolls of none processed K40, from Ebay etc, I may be able to save some money as I'm finacing this activity myself. I know most K40 is out of date with probable colour shift, but thats something I'd gladly accept, if I know what chemicals to use (I thought it was on the lines of 35mm slide processing, E4?) Thanks in advance for any help.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 14, 2011, 10:21 AM:

From what I've heard the Kodachrome process was very complex and the chemicals both unique and unfortunately now extinct.

So it was always, and even moreso now impossible to process at home.

I heard at the end Dwayne's had so much Kodachrome to process that they ran out of the last of the last Kodachrome chemicals and some people got their film back unprocessed, and now forever unprocessable.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 14, 2011, 10:23 AM:

The short answer.... NO.
But it can be processed to black and white, not my area of expertise, I'm afraid!
Martin

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on June 14, 2011, 06:08 PM:

Kodachrome can only be processed as Black and White Negative (not positive!!). Mark I wouldnt even bother trying to process it at home. Better off saving up your money and buying 100D ( or old stock 64T if cheap enough).

Graham S

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on June 15, 2011, 03:04 AM:

Hi,

into a B&W-negative:
http://lavender.fortunecity.com/lavender/569/k12bwnegdev.html
K14 (incl. K40) is 6 minutes in step 3 according to Mr. Baumgarten.

into a B&W-positive:
http://www.ralphdickinson.com/process_site/kodachrome.html
http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=48841
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22152
Keep in mind that you'll have to overexpose (most recommend 2 to 3 f-stops) the Kodachrome to get good results...

into a colour-positive:
It's nearly impossible to do all the steps with the correct timing, temperatures, ... at home. And the required chemicals are now nearly impossible to get.
"Nickrapak" only managed to get some disappointing results:
http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21775
Someone from the Czech analogue photography community managed to get some "okay" results:
http://www.temnakomora.cz/uploaded_files/644_20100709165227.jpg
http://www.temnakomora.cz/uploaded_files/644_20100709165634.jpg
http://www.temnakomora.cz/uploaded_files/644_20100709175337.jpg
(AFAIK so far nobody managed to get better and constant results!)

Jörg

[ June 15, 2011, 05:56 AM: Message edited by: Joerg Polzfusz ]

Posted by Mark L Barton (Member # 1512) on June 17, 2011, 05:52 AM:

Darn it!!! And all that old sealed K40 on Ebay!

Posted by Joe McAllister (Member # 825) on June 24, 2011, 08:02 AM:

Is there a commercial facility that processes old kodachrome in any way? I know the proper process is no longer available but have a few rolls I would like to experiment with.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on June 24, 2011, 01:16 PM:

Joe, Kodakchrome in color can only be processed by Kodak (through Dwyane).

No other place can process it. You can process your rolls in B/W but that will cost you a lot of money. Better to buy B/W rolls/

Posted by Nathan DeHahn (Member # 2192) on June 28, 2011, 03:25 PM:

I emailed to kodak last night. They patented the film. It is already discountinued film? How come they dont give us the formula of chemcials to process Kodachorme because of Patents on discountinued film? [Frown]

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on June 28, 2011, 08:31 PM:

Dwyane'sb will only develope it if its 2005 or newer.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on June 28, 2011, 08:34 PM:

quote:
Dwyane'sb will only develope it if its 2005 or newer.

Jim, Dwayne will not develop Kodachrome anymore, no matter 2005, newer or older, because they say so

Posted by Martin Baumgarten (Member # 2663) on July 27, 2011, 11:22 PM:

Yes, KODACHROME can be processed as Black & White, I do it all the time here for customers and have done so for many years. In fact, in default, so can virtually ALL photographic films be done in B&W. KODACHROME is a triple layer matrixed B&W film in reality [matrixed with gelatin filter layers for the 3 primary colors], and color dyes are added by 3 separate Color Developers relative to the formation of the Positive silver during the reversal process. All black metallic silver is removed during the Bleach and Fixer stages in the end, leaving only the positive color dyes. There's more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell for this part of my answer. Anyhow, the Process K-14 is now history. BUT all is not lost! It can be done as B&W and looks good.

Since KODACHROME is really only a B&W film, it is most often processed as a B&W Negative, usually done for all the old K-12 films and K-14 films that were exposed years ago but never processed. The old films have to be done as a Negative, since Reversal processing would leave a faint muddy image if anything at all, due to the severity of the age fog in the film. This is what is done for such old films here at PPS, at Film Rescue, and also at Rocky Mountain Film Lab (if they're still operating these days). To save images from those old films, that is the only way to process them, using a high contrast technical developer adjusted for the age of the film, and any resulting images then transferred to a video format (nominally DVD) and returned to the customer along with the film original.

However, IF the film is good stock, AND there's still tons of it out there in the hands of filmmakers working in Super 8 and Regular 8mm........... meaning having been cold stored since new and virtually as good as new, OR film made in the past 10 years kept out of the heat at normal room temperature..... can be processed as EITHER a Negative or Positive (via B&W Reversal processing). What does it look like? Pretty good if the film has been cold-stored. As a Negative, depending on what developer is used, it will have nice even tones and can be used to telecine the images just as with any negative stock. As a Positive image, done via B&W Reversal processing, the film looks pretty good, but is grainier than what we're used to expect out of KODACHROME. The reason is because processed as Color Reversal, the dyes overlap each other and are themselves virtually devoid of grain. The grain we see is the ghost image of the grain from the original B&W Positive image that is necessary to create the Color Dye image. So, yes, it's pretty good, just grainier, and grainier than PLUS-X 7276 or 7265......but less grainy than TRI-X 7278 or 7266.

NOTE: Processed normally, there is a filmspeed loss, so the film would have to rated at about ISO/ASA 10 for KODACHROME 40 (I recommend testing first for anyone processing it themselves]. HOWEVER, film exposed automatically or rated at the original filmspeeds, can still be done, as I do them here and add a push to the film to get normal density. It looks pretty good, as the test photos will reveal if you examine them.

This is one reason I'm not worried about using up my KMA Sound filmstock, since it can still be processed as B&W and I'd rather have B&W Sound film, than no sound film at all. Like many, I ended up with leftover unshot film in my freezer. I wasn't going to just waste it on anything to use it up prior to the Dec 2010 deadline. But it is somewhat expensive to have it processed this way at some of the labs, unless you wish to tackle it yourself...which is quite doable if you have the equipment: processing tank system, film rewind setup, darkroom trays, photograde sponge (to physically wipe the remjet off with the Borax Bath solution), chemistry etc. PPS charges $28 per 50ft Super 8mm film.

Also, done as B&W Reversal, it can also be Sepia toned just like the other B&W Reversal films, and that gives it a nice look....almost a glowing appearance, different than Sepia with B&W Reversal films. I have some photos posted of Super 8 frames done recently here:
http://s1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb361/MartinBaumgarten/

Lastly, since the film is silver-rich, it really needs the previous B&W Reversal process........otherwise, if using the D-94a and new Bleach, you'd have to make some adjustments to the Development time and also extend the Bleaching time out. There's some other factors involved here as well in processing, development time aside....and the worst factor is the removal of the Remjet Anti-Halation Backing, which when processing manually, must be done after processing, and slowly by hand using a Borax bath, and then a rewash afterward. A reminder here though, if you have old films that were shot long ago, or just old film that you might want to use that was NOT cold stored.....forget about processing it as reversal; it will just be muddy nothing or very very poor.

AND.....when processing OLD films as NEG, the darn remjet backing is very stubborn and you really have to work at getting it all off; meaning a long soak in the Borax Bath to help loosen it, and usually giving the film two wiping passes to get it all off. And even then, you might still have some streaks of it here and there, as it is difficult to get off the older the film is! In the K-12 and K-14 processing machines, they use not only solution but soft buffer rollers rotating at high speed to help clear all this off and then a spray rinse to remove residual traces as the film passes through that stage of processing (done prior to actual developing).

Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Martin Baumgarten

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on July 28, 2011, 01:23 AM:

Welcome Martin, great to see someone with all your knowledge contributing here.

David

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