8mm Forum: normal 8 Duplicate

This is topic normal 8 Duplicate in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006313

Posted by Anton Juan-Jorge Caro (Member # 1012) on June 28, 2011, 03:51 AM:

Hi, guys.
I own an old normal 8 B&W movie, which I would like to duplicate [Roll Eyes]

onto fresh film material for archival purposes.
Proposals?
Regards,
Anton

[ June 29, 2011, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Anton Juan-Jorge Caro ]

Posted by Anton Juan-Jorge Caro (Member # 1012) on June 28, 2011, 01:46 PM:

I have some experience in processing b&w reversal and negative and colour reversal films.
I could alternatively buy an old Ekran cine camera that allows to make prints and to give it a try on FOMA R100. But presumably I would not manage as fine as to have it done somewhere.
Someone with experience with Ekran?
OR
May I buy the equipment for printing 8 mm films (no idea what the name of the equipment is) from somewhere?

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 28, 2011, 01:57 PM:

First lets hope that no one jumps on here to talk about the normal/regular/standard 8 terminology, but this is the kind of thing I would suggest taking elsewhere since it is not simply processing the new film, but duplicating the old...Not sure what is available near you but there is a very good lab here in california called Pro 8mm that could duplicate it for you Pro 8 (Burbank)

Posted by Jerome Sutter (Member # 2346) on June 28, 2011, 02:51 PM:

I wouldn't make a duplicate of the film. Simply, the quality is not very good. I have done it a few years ago, and the quality wasn't good at all. The film was almost out of focus and fuzzy. What you could do, is telecine it and get a DVD out of it. I fact, it might be cheaper. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Anton Juan-Jorge Caro (Member # 1012) on June 28, 2011, 04:30 PM:

Oh. Thanks. Duplicating!!! I am not a native English speaker, guys!!! My fantasy knows no limits, as you see!!!
"Around me" is quite a stretchy thing - I see no problem to send it to Pro8 - I was searching their web site today, but I could not extract the information that they would duplicate regular 8 film.
Transfer to DVD is fine, I would do it (at ANDEC), but because this film is a record of a very important social event for a certain community, a copy on fresh film is also desirable (or at least I think it would have some value - for projection purposes. I have a wonderful Bolex M8 ... xaxa.
Some people advised me wet-gate blow-up to 16 mm? Would you consider this a good choice?
This film is ca. 70 years old and looks fine. I would presume that some 70 years more would make almost no difference to it. And then... no idea. The DVD would stay forever on a server, HDD, whatever.
I will contact Pro8 tomorrow. Thanks.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on June 29, 2011, 12:44 AM:

Has anyone here seen a wetgate blowup? Pretty foolish to use explosive liquids around film, might destroy 'em! [Big Grin]

Seriously, that sounds like an intriguing idea because the receiving film is 4x the quality of the source, thus minimizing losses so long as you can get contrast correct. Anyone seen such a thing? Probably expensive, but worthwhile if DVD isn't a sufficient "guarantee" of preservation.

Posted by Anton Juan-Jorge Caro (Member # 1012) on June 29, 2011, 03:03 AM:

I asked at Andec Film. The answer for my case is:
normal 8 120 m > ca. 240 m 16 mm (x 10 EUR/m) - 2400 EUR for the internegative.
Then - positive x 2 EUR/m - ca. 500 EUR
Nice option, because if I want 1 duplicate, I have to pay 3000 EUR, but if I want 5 duplicates, the price per capita is 1000 EUR.
I can just dream of wet-gate blow-whatever.
Currently I am looking for an affordable alternative.
I called at Pro 8 - no possibility to have normal 8 duplicate.
I wrote to Classic Home Cinema, UK. Curious.

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on June 29, 2011, 10:09 PM:

In my experience from the 70's, both super 8 and regular 8 make very poor contact duplication prints...with a build up in contrast and loss of definition.
An optical blow up to 16mm would make the best film dupe, although a DVD transfer would probably be similar in quality and much less expensive.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on June 30, 2011, 12:51 AM:

Then I would recommend an HD transfer to video. That way you preserve more of the grain structure faithfully, maybe even more contrast range if it's greater than 8-bits sample depth. Based on previous work seen and value for price, I would recommend looking into http://www.digitaltransfersystems.net.

Posted by Anton Juan-Jorge Caro (Member # 1012) on June 30, 2011, 05:08 AM:

Okej (as sometimes Slovak people write).
So, it means that for archival purposes I will go to Andec and 16 mm. And they will do the transfer to DVD, as well.
Problem solved.
Of course, for my own satisfaction, I will try to make my own duplicate of the film, using that funny Soviet camera Ekran. Just a try on a single roll to share the spirit and hopefully knowledge. I am a scientist, so the research is in my blood!!
haha

Posted by Martin Baumgarten (Member # 2663) on July 27, 2011, 11:47 PM:

Duplication of Regular 8mm movie film in B&W is still very doable. Since the film is so old though, I recommend proper cleaning and treatment (such as FilmRenew which will make the filmbase pliable somewhat, since very old film often is brittle). I also recommend digital transfer so that should anything happen to the original film, you will not have lost the images. Once a digital transfer has been made of high quality, you can do some digital adjustments in software programs on the computer. The final film can be refilmed off a monitor or TV screen, albeit some artifacts, and at least you'll have a new film that can be projected.

Also, the original film can be either contact printed or optically duplicated onto 8mm film, or Super 8mm film, or 16mm film. Contact printing can cause some out-of-focus parts of the film if the original film has lots of warping due to age. I had this problem on doing some old family films, but since film was desired, the occasional blips were acceptable. I have contact printed Regular 8mm film here many times at PPS and yes contact printing to the same format does have some quality loss, but it's subjective, and relative to the purposes of the customer. I think it still looks pretty good, as long as film is cleaned and not warped. The prices you quote for duplication are very expensive! I understand why, but suggest you just carefully set up and do something on your own. Sometimes the easiest method, works the best for some purposes, despite not being the same high quality as what a full lab can offer at much higher cost.

Alternatively, you can also carefully setup and just refilm the film using any movie camera and filmstock. Careful framing is necessary and an accurate reflex finder camera is best, otherwise use whatever means necessary to line everything up accurately. Since refilming, without frame-by-frame synching, (unless doing an extremely slow frame by frame refilm, using single frame methods)....you will get some image density pulsing due to the out-of-phase shutters in the camera and projecor. But for short films, shot at 16fps or 18fps, the effect is minimal and tolerable. I know tolerable is relative and subjective, but you'd have to try it yourself to see if it's okay for your needs.

If you use an "XL" type Super 8mm camera, there will be the least amount of image density pulsing, due to the larger shutter opening of 220 degrees or better. I have done this many times over the years so that there would be a FILM version of an old film that can still be projected. So, the options for experimenting are there for the do it yourself methods. FINALLY....whatever you decide to do.....FIRST clean the film and treat it...and make a high quality digital (preferred or even analog) transfer...BEFORE you send the film to any lab. That way, at least you'll still have the images to work with from the film, should anything happen to the film at the lab or in shipping. I understand how some communities still prefer film, so these methods will allow you to still have a new film version for projection purposes.....and have a digital video version also.

Also, your english is fine. If I could speak your language half as well, I would be very pleased.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on July 28, 2011, 12:17 PM:

Wooow,...Martin is here. You are "classic" in 8mm film shooting scene. You are a guru. Welcome aboard !

We always need your input.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on July 28, 2011, 12:32 PM:

quote:
Proposals?

No thanks I am all ready married. Besides your not my type [Big Grin]

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on July 28, 2011, 05:23 PM:

I tried many years ago to make a dupe from a print using a 'Boots' (the chemist) kit which comprised a mirror and translucent screen. I filmed from the projected picture on the reverse side of the screen. It worked, though grainy as heck.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 28, 2011, 09:42 PM:

Thank you for your post, Martin. And welcome, great to see you here!

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2