8mm Forum: Is the GS 1200 the Biggest Mistake of my Life?

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Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on July 21, 2012, 07:51 PM:

I have been quietly, comfortably enjoying Super 8 films on Elmo ST1200's for many years, and finally after what I thought was a stroke of luck acquired a GS1200 for free. I have been learning about it and noticed it already has some problems,(the auto thread and possibly the take up) and I have read all of the stories so I am picking up a broken one for a parts machine and then it donned on me? Am I making a mistake here? Am I going to enjoy the difference so much that the potential finickiness is worth it? Will the complexity of it force me to send it off for repairs thereby incurring even more costs? I guess I will see how long this new relationship will last

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on July 21, 2012, 08:39 PM:

I'll be staying tuned to hear how this relationship evolves. The red flag for me was "acquired a GS1200 for FREE." [Roll Eyes]

Keep us posted. [Big Grin]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on July 21, 2012, 08:50 PM:

Dino, as you are more silent films collector, I don't see the needs to have GS. Your current ST is more than enough. Even I think you need sort of that German projector which is very quiet in terms of the machine noise.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 21, 2012, 09:08 PM:

I've always been just a little wary of the GS, but in the same way I'm wary of Ferraris: spectacular performance, along with complexity and the potential for trouble that comes with it.

-the difference is I mayyy own a GS some day!

Then again, the ethusiasm that people have for them probably means if I ever did get one, the ST-1200HD might not seem quite the same anymore!

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on July 22, 2012, 12:09 AM:

Winbert while I agree I don't really have the needs for a stereo projector (I have a Chinon 1200 that I thought I was finally going to get to use with the one new release I purchased the Super 8 trailer, then it turned out to not be stereo)..I do like to watch a nice big image so I am always looking for a little more light output, which the GS can do with its brighter lamp, and I believe I can switch the shutter that supposedly increases the light even more.

and Steve, the enthusiasm of others is exactly what has prompted me to investigate, .... we shall see.

Posted by Wayne Tuell (Member # 1689) on July 22, 2012, 12:19 AM:

Dino, I thought by now you would have the theater projector with 4K XENON lamp retro fitted with S8mm sprockets & gate along with the digital dolby AND be THX certified all in your den. [Cool]

Posted by Akshay Nanjangud (Member # 2828) on July 22, 2012, 12:26 AM:

Ha ha ha ... Wayne, I liked that. Dino does have some cool stuff.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on July 22, 2012, 12:46 AM:

A well looked after GS1200 is a dream machine. Very bright light output, great sound, ability to re-record incredible Stereo Recordings. I think its one of the best hands down.
But...a neglected GS1200 can be a little finicky depending on how bad it was neglected. I have heard that some GS1200 machines were used in Adult Theatres and ran all day long till they died. I have been VERY lucky and all the machines I have had in the past had very minimal problems.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on July 22, 2012, 03:43 AM:

Dino
Best of luck, as they can be a real pain in the butt when they play up [Smile]

Most are fitted with EJL 200watt lamp, as the proper ESC is hard to get, also it was an expensive lamp in its day with a short life. The EJL will give you less light than the ST1200 with its 150 watt lamp, thats because of the type of filament in the EJL [Frown]

Anyway hope all goes well, and with this forum you are certainly in the right place to read all the "ups and downs" of owning a GS1200.

Graham. [Smile]

Posted by Alex Fox (Member # 94) on July 22, 2012, 08:25 AM:

Like Alan says the GS has to be maintained, I have had two of them since they were put on the market and have had great service from them ,other than having to replace the micro switchs. Like a motor car if you don't take it in for service on a regular schedule then you can expect to sitting at the side of the road one day. My two pennies worth, Alex.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 22, 2012, 12:47 PM:

The fault being they spent more time in the repair shop than
being actually used, but congratulations on your good fortune
Dino.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 22, 2012, 01:46 PM:

Base on my experience with 2 GS1200'S , here IMO are the pros and cons of the GS1200:

PROS:
1200FT Capacity
200watt lighting
sync-pulse capability
Piano key controls (see also below)
Optical playback capability
Long life magnetic heads
Superb quality construction - Built like a 16mm machine

CONS:
Can sometimes scratch film
Reliability issues associated with the complex switching circuitry required for piano key controls (switches, solenoids,relays)
Evidence of susceptibility to sound WOW with some prints due to small diameter sound capstan and pressure roller and variation in take-up torque.
Amplifier reliability issues.
Very heavy

There are other pros and cons but I think the ones listed are the major ones.

Now lests list the pros and cons of another top level machine, say the Eumig 938 Stereo

PROS:
800 FT CAPACITY
150 WATT LIGHTING
Extremely reliable
Does not scratch film
Superb sound quality with zero WOW
Light weight

Cons:
Magnetic head wear can be an issue with extensive use.

Which one would you pick?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 22, 2012, 04:29 PM:

Is the question rhetorical,but I'll answer it,a choice between
Japanese & German,I've got to go with Eumig,just on their
superb reputation on reliability and no scratch machines.
The Elmo GS is a quality projector,but comes with a few problems
one of them serious,film care.If the damn thing had been a
manual thread projector I could actually love it,but it needs a lot
of alterations before precious film can pass unharmed through it.
With a little more put into actual care of film and less on the
recording side,this could have been the classic projector,the
Japanese fumbled the ball with those horrible plastic tracks.
A missed opportunity.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 23, 2012, 01:15 AM:

quote:
Which one would you pick?

The Sankyo Stereo 800 every time! [Wink]

Mike

Posted by Joe Balitzki (Member # 438) on July 23, 2012, 01:37 AM:

The periodic issues with the GS1200 have stopped me from taking the plunge. You have to replace certain parts which are difficult to obtain now to avoid scratching. And due to its complexity, repairs become necessary sooner or later. More trouble than its worth unless you have $ to throw away or a lot of patience. I spoke to a repairman (not Leon Norris) last year on the phone who works on many brands. If a part isn't available, he fabricates it. He said that the GS1200s are over engineered and unnecessarily complex which leads to the frequent breakdowns. I agree partly because its predecessors are workhorses. So Elmo should have known better than to design such a jumble of features onto the same body as the ST 1200s.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on July 23, 2012, 10:28 AM:

I use my GS only for big screen showings at the library..outside at the church..etc.... fitted with a f1.0 lens...two blade shutter....and , very important, the fuji ESC lamp...which Steve Osborne of the the Reel Image and others say gives 20% more light because it focuses that filament on the smaller super 8 frame. And they are right...the ejl...is for 16mm machines. I just changed out the ejl for the fuji....(the ejl was a spare I had to put in for an emergency)..and the difference is remarkable. But, Dino..you show so many silent films....so if you put a two blade shutter in that machine...and run it at 18fps....the flicker is very noticeable.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 23, 2012, 10:57 AM:

I have three GS1200's and don't experience all the purported problems listed on here. I suggest all you chaps succeeded in purchasing knackered machines.

One I did purchase about 10 years ago was clapped out owing to it being a Widescreen Centre Gemini 300 converted machine. It was extremely bright but needed a major overhaul. I used it until it finally died and then it went to Bill Parsons who rebuilt it into the HTI machine used at the BFCC's ever since. I've not seen a better Super 8 image and probably not heard better Super 8 sound reproduction.

The truth is the only machine that can compare with a GS1200 is from the Fumeo stable. Alan Rik can update us on that.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on July 23, 2012, 10:58 AM:

Dino

Now for my 2 cents. If you decided to get divorced from your GS1200 I would like permanent custody of it with no visitation rights. I don't care about any of the querks it has. I just WANT ONE! So if you decide to part with it please let me know. If I don't have the money to buy it I will re-mortgage my house, sell my car, or consider a life of crime to buy it. [Confused]

PatD

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on July 23, 2012, 11:34 AM:

quote:
So if you decide to part with it please let me know. If I don't have the money to buy it I will re-mortgage my house, sell my car, or consider a life of crime to buy it.

Don't worry Pat, after watching Pay it Forrward, I trust Dino will send the projector to you for ....

quote:
and finally after what I thought was a stroke of luck acquired a GS1200 for free

...

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 23, 2012, 12:22 PM:

John,we're not imagining the damage these machines have done,
and it isn't just the GS but the STs all have the same problem.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember "Super 8 Collector" from the 70s,but the ST1200 had just appeared and
got a resounding write up, which led to me buying one (new)
shorlty after it was reported in the mag that people were experiencing scratched prints,now we weren't all imagining this
problem.Mr van Someren then advised us all to write letters to
Elmo via him and they would be forwarded to them. They admitted that the plastic parts were under par and would make
newer parts from a harder wearing material,which they did,
but the problems persisted.Eventually,people did there own
alterations and either cut away the tracking or like myself, fitted rollers to alleviate wear on the film surface.The GS was also
fraught with problem parts as Keith Wilton in his early magazine
S8FR #21 proved,together with diagrams on where to fit additional rollers.These were new projectors and collectors were
having to do the job of the designer.This doesn't happen in 16mm.I have two plastic tubs containing used parts from Elmo
projectors that I have replaced over the years,and that was for
two new machines,one a GS, the other an ST1200,the GS spent
it's life in a box in transit from A-B.The posts on this Forum speak for themselves.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 23, 2012, 01:36 PM:

I know the GS guide where the film goes in can be replaced with a (very expensive) metal one from Germany which should last longer but no doubt the additional rollers are best. Does anyone know if Keith Wilton - or anyone - still offers this service?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 23, 2012, 01:51 PM:

Hi Adrian,Dave Locke used to fit them,I have address,if he still
lives there that is: 13a Bulagak Rd.,Thornton Heath,Surrey.
You were saying that it's possible to get a part in metal for the
GS,but what about the other parts like the head presser,that
eventually wears,and the lower channel & sprocket,also the
upper sprocket guide,which is where I fitted two extra rollers
and also on the lower sprocket guide.I do have a phone number but it must be long changed by now :tel 653 0133,but directory enquiries should sort that one.

Posted by Vincent Zabbia (Member # 2453) on July 23, 2012, 04:27 PM:

This is funny stuff...Pat, looks like you never owned a GS 1200? I've owned one and sold it many years ago. I prefer the ST 1200D or the ST 1200HD (these do scratch films after awhile). I've also owned most of the Eumigs, and they are easy on films, but don't like the commitment the film makes once loaded. The Sankyo 800 Stereo has very flimsy sprockets, and without the 1.0 lens, the image is too dark...As for the Fumeo (Too much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) Keep it simple and you will have less stress!

[ July 23, 2012, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Vincent Zabbia ]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 23, 2012, 04:43 PM:

Vincent,there is sound philosophy in those wise words,and that
is very true about not being able to remove film in the later Eumigs,which is why I favour manual loading.

Posted by Vincent Zabbia (Member # 2453) on July 23, 2012, 05:44 PM:

Hugh, you are the Jedi Master...Beware of Buying a GS 1200 on ebay. Might get a lemon. Stick with buyers you know...The only problem I've run into when buying the ST 1200D/HD are the melted belts...Which is a problem I can live with...You can buy three Elmo Ds or HDs for the price of one GS. Let me make one thing clear though...The GS 1200 is a great projector as long as you treat it with tender loving care...They can be testy like an old girlfriend...

Posted by Akshay Nanjangud (Member # 2828) on July 23, 2012, 06:24 PM:

Vincent, is Hugh already a Jedi?! His has to be the fastest, the most meteoric rise to Jedihood. [Big Grin]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on July 23, 2012, 06:32 PM:

Akshay,all it means is I have an opinion on everything and never
shut up!

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on July 23, 2012, 07:31 PM:

Hugh - thanks for mentioning Dave Lock, but I'm afraid it's very unlikely that he could find the time for such tasks nowadays. He practically lives at the Cinema Museum! He did do the work on my first GS but I have another that hasn't been done. I agree about the other guides that can't be replaced by the metal alternative, although no doubt the amount the owner uses the projector is significant.

A good tip I picked up somewhere years ago is that worn guides can actually be restored by very carefully applying some Araldite to build up the raised areas that become worn down. It takes careful work with something like a tooth pick, but the results can be very effective and the Araldite may well then wear slower than the plastic.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on July 24, 2012, 12:31 AM:

Adrian didn't Dave Locke become a heavy duty digital convert?

I think the main things I am picking up here, are sort of what I was thinking, which is that the GS 1200 when it is in tip-top shape can be a great machine to watch a film on, but it is not a machine for someone who expects things to just always be perfect without keeping close tabs...I think I have come to know that most of the projectors I use (The Elmo ST-1200's included)need a great deal of attention since they are all just getting older. I will probably get the GS up n running and use it sparingly for special occasions (like when someone else is watching a film with me), but keep my workhorse ST-1200 as my day to day Super8 machine...

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on July 24, 2012, 01:37 AM:

I think that eventually everything will fade and get worn...but in the meantime you might as well watch your film on the machine that will give you the best picture and the best sound out there. That for me is the GS1200. I have owned many machines and the difference in picture quality and light output with the GS1200 and the Eumig S938/940 is very big. The Eumig looks dim next to the GS. If the Eumig had a brighter picture and a 1200ft reel capacity, optical playback, I would love to make that my main machine.
I think it just doesn't make sense to watch a film and deny the enjoyment of the best picture/sound you can get just to save the print in "case" you get scratches one day.
I remember being very careful with a copy of "Way of the Dragon" Super 8 print, not really watching it too much as I wanted it to remain pristine. I went to play it a few months back..and it turned pink! Now I use the projector I want, see the prints I want as many times as I want...I can't take it with me so I am going to enjoy the hobby as much as I can. Whatever projector you love to use to enjoy the hobby..just enjoy it! [Smile]

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 24, 2012, 03:17 AM:

Spot-on Mr. Rik. Hear, hear. Couldn't agree more etc. etc. etc..

Hugh, you are right about the plastic threading guide causing scratching when it's worn and I have had to replace one of these on one of my machines many years ago. But it didn't put scratches down a print like many other machines do. Would have done if left to wear and wear I suppose. But it is possible to use the machine without these guides in place at all and it's not difficult to do. The other place that can cause scratching is those pesky pegs on the sound pressure plate. I had to change one of those once and that did cause a nasty great scratch but that was because it had somehow become chipped. That seems to have been a one off so despite stocking up on the pegs I haven't had to use another... yet.

I don't particularly like those roller conversions to the threader guide but it would be great to have one and feel confident it works, but that would take time to have confidence in. Looking at the ones I've seen though I'd prefer to have the original part in place. The roller conversion around the bottom loop though is a much better modification and replaces that black plastic loop stabilizer (which when worn causes scratching). I think this roller conversion was actually taken from the ST-1200 and should have been engineered to the GS as standard.

To keep an eye on the condition of any GS-1200 simply run a film backwards for a few seconds every now and then. Alternatively put a loop through it for a minute or two for a more thorough test. As a general rule and when in good condition these machines are very kind to film. Buying one now though now they're so old is a real pig in a poke. Find one in good condition and possibly still on its first owner and they should give you years of trouble free motoring... erm, projecting.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on July 24, 2012, 08:37 AM:

Dino, as to keeping the GS for special showings.. that's what I do. In my permanent booth setup at home, I run st1200HD's for Super 8...with Fuji bulbs...upgraded lenses (f1.0) AND Steve Osborne's remarkable screen paint on the screen...and take the stereo sound from the monitor left and right jacks into my sound system...and for the size screen I have...the picture is very bright, nice and sharp...rock steady and the sound is amazing.

for my home theater, I just don't need the overkill of the Gs...and so the reliable, simple St's get to do what they do best.....run ..and run...and run... While the Gs gets put on duty for the very large screen shows where you need every lumen you can get..and also....I have a booth at home which sheilds the audience from the noise of the St's..... they seem generally to run more noisely than the Gs..which is very quiet...and that also helps on those remote shows where the projector shares the room with the audience. It's an arrangement that works for me. BUT......I ALWAYS bring along an St with me on those shows as a backup. So far, though, over the four years I've had a Gs, I've never had to use the backup machine. When I first got it, ..off ebay at a pretty cheap $650, it worked ok, but I sent it to Leon Norris (the U.S. Elmo expert) and had it gone over stem to stern and also had a two blade shutter put on it. So it was in top operating condition to begin with...and still is, as far as I can tell. No film scratching....no odd behavior. I save the odd behavior for me.

Posted by Salvatore Romeo (Member # 2872) on July 24, 2012, 01:42 PM:

Hi , j ' have bought an ELMO ST 1200 HD about 3 years ago, and it is a good projector;and like Dino, j' ve the lucky to find a GS 1200 second series at very low price.
At the begin , j'm not very entusiast because the GS 1200 and the ST1200 seem very similar :
1) the same reel capably
2)same lens (in the ELMO gs j ‘find the 1.0 lens)
but later j 'observed that the GS is better than ST 1200.
In the GS 1200 the sound is most beautiful than the ST 1200 sound, and is Stereo.
In the ST 1200 HD if you need the stereo sound you must wire an esternal amplifier , instead in the GS don't need an esternal amplifier, but need two esternal speaker only.
The ST1200 is not able to recording in sinc whit an asternal source, while whit the GS 1200 you can do it (also in stereo if your film have double sound track).
In the GS is possible to insert a two blade shutter , while in the ST1200 is possible but very complex to do it.
The ST 1200 D and HD (can) have problem with the rubber wheels, infact after a lot hours of work, the wheels wear out,and the correct speed decreases.
Warning , the ELMO ST 1200 (D o HD) is a nice and good projector, but at the fist position , j ‘put the ELMO GS 1200.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 24, 2012, 05:06 PM:

Dino, there are several of us locally who are GS users (such as me) or owners, and have had to deal with many of these issues. Yes, I agree that the GS is over-engineered and requires extra TLC, but it can give you a show like no other depending on what you need. I've had to solve a number of problems on this machine and had excellent local support through Pat's Projectors and parts from Leon Norris, so it can be done and doesn't have to break the bank (entirely). However, for what I've put into my friend's GS over the past several years I could've bought one of Steven Sigel's STs presently for sale.

Dino, I'm happy to talk further of this here or phone/email/in person if you desire. Congratulations on a fine, if needy, freebie.

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