8mm Forum: Newbie questions on optical sound

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Posted by Lee Romanow (Member # 3223) on September 04, 2012, 12:10 PM:

Hi all,

Firstly, I am a new member of the forums. I have not done an exhaustive search of all posts, I was hoping to save some time by just asking some questions directly. a search of "optical sound" did bring results but no specific answers.

Question 1: Has there ever been an external processor for optical sound? Like a device that fits between the supply reel before threading into the projector that would extract optical sound on projectors not equipped to do so. It seems that something like that could be possible and I was wondering if it had been done - this could make even a silent projector usable with an optical film.

Question 2: At some point I'd like to get an optical projector if I could find an affordable one. One of the main reasons is that alot of the optical features for sale do seem to sell at reasonable prices (is this because the projectors to play them are less common?). Aside from the Elmo projectors, what models are available? I have seen a couple Chinon with this feature, any others out there?

Question 3: On ebay, I have observed several Chinon projectors with optical for sale, that do not sell. For example a Chinon 9000 which was offered at $200 did not sell. Are these (Chinon in general) to be avoided for some reason and what prices are reasonable?

Feedback appreciated, with thanks.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 04, 2012, 12:33 PM:

Answer 1:. that is impossible. Because if you have an external device to read the optical soundtrack then the sound will not synch with the picture (i.e the sound will be heard before picture is hit by the lamp).

Answer 2: Optical projectors are indeed not common because film with optical soundtrack was not for domestic purposes (except for few occasion in Japan). They were mostly made for Airlines.

Answer 3: Chinon is a good machine but far behind Elmo. Elmo ST-1200 with optical capability is priced around $225-350. So, people prefer to buy Elmo instead.

ps: please be understood that optical soundtrack is less superior than magnetic ones. Plus you can have stereo sound with magnetic which is far upgrade then mono optical soundtrack.

pss: for answer 1, if you work with IT, you can delay the sound to several mili-second to synch the picture. In today's technology it is possible to do that but requires more skill.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 04, 2012, 01:01 PM:

Winbert is right on nearly every point. I only take issue with one ...

" ps: please be understood that optical soundtrack is less superior than magnetic ones. Plus you can have stereo sound with magnetic which is far upgrade then mono optical soundtrack. "

In general, this is true. However, by the 1980's, the soundtracks, (especially on the US optical sound prints) were quite crsip and clear and had a much higher volume than the UK optical super 8 prints of the same period. One of the probelms with optical super 8 is that, depending on the film stock used, the optical soundtrack can actually fade as well, from a near perfect black, to a light pink, and while you'll still have some sound on that "pink" soundtrack, it can be so low that it's hardly understandable and with the pops and hisses that can accompany an optical soundtrack, impossibloe to enjoy. I had a print of "Hot Millions" (Peter Ustinov) which was an actual super 8 optical print from 1968, (one of the first years for the optical super 8 prints), and while the image had amazingly lost very little of it's color over time, the soundtrack was very pink and was aalmost impossi9ble to listen to.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on September 04, 2012, 02:59 PM:

Lee

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Smile]

PATD

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 04, 2012, 03:42 PM:

quote:
the soundtracks, (especially on the US optical sound prints) were quite crsip and clear and had a much higher volume

Osi, if you have that print, can you check if optical print from that era can reach low freq (bass) deeper than the one from magnetic. I have an experience that optical is hard to create good low freq.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 04, 2012, 03:56 PM:

Actually what we call "crisp" usually has more to do with good high frequency response. When you lose that they become what I call "muddy".

By and large, magnetic Super-8 soundtracks are pretty bassy. I built a notch filter to de-hum my sound. The notch is very deep at 60 Hz, but still has quite a bit of rejection all the way up to 150 Hz. At the time I built it I was concerned this rejection would wipe out my bass tones, but even with it operating I still crank down the bass on my amp.

-so maybe if optical tracks aren't so big in bass, it doesn't mean the sound will not be nice.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 04, 2012, 04:15 PM:

quote:
so maybe if optical tracks aren't so big in bass, it doesn't mean the sound will not be nice

Steve, it has nothing to do with the sound quality. I am talking about how far (low and high) the magnetic tape can reach.

Now, if magnetic tape can go high and low deep, then a good recording will make nice sound.

The parallelism is, a choir group has several singers as sopranos (high voice) and basses (low voice). Although it does not mean this choir will sing good, however it has a potential to be a good choir compared to those with only sopranos.

Did you see that?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 04, 2012, 05:19 PM:

I thought everything audio should have to do with sound quality: why does the bass response matter if the sound isn't good?

We have all these guys riding around New York with 1,000 Watt car stereos with their trunks literally full of speakers. When they pull up next to you at a light the bass vibrates your car: great bass response, awful sound!

What I'm saying is that the bass section in the Magnetic sound choir seems to have a few too many guys in it and if optical has fewer that may not really hurt. (I fired several of them and still they are at least loud enough.)

It's not just the cuttoff frequencies that matter, it's the overall spectrum. That's why people use graphic equalizers.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 04, 2012, 06:36 PM:

Exactly Steve! I always use a 10 band stereo equalizer to get the optimum sound from super 8 mag tracks.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 04, 2012, 07:25 PM:

Steve you are exactly right with the equalizer. But at the same time equaliizer also can minimize the problem with too much bass on magnetic because it can go minus (-).

However, if the range of optical freq is more on middle to high freq, yes you are right an equalizer will boost the bass if we increase the low freq on the equalizer. But remember it will increase the middle freq which is mostly for vocal (dialog). As a result you also hear people talk to become too boomy.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 05, 2012, 03:52 AM:

May I go back to Lee's original question?

I would be interested to know why he is enquiring about optical sound which is little collected, or perhaps is he not aware of the vast range of magnetic sound films available, both on standard (regular) 8 and Super 8.

Or is that optical prints sell "at reasonable prices" as he says.

Posted by Lee Romanow (Member # 3223) on September 05, 2012, 10:45 AM:

Hi,

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. This post responds to Maurice's questions.

On why I am inquiring about optical sound: You are correct when you stated that I may be unaware of the magnetic sound films out there. I just don't know. I just know what interests me when I happen to see it. In the last two months since I started looking at films for sale, both here and on places like ebay, I'll see a feature that interests me and sometimes it happens to be optical. A good example was "Gorky Park", listed on this forum at about $60. That's one I'd love to see if I could play it, and its within my budget. Compare that to something that is in great demand, like a Bond film for hundreds of dollars. Maybe I can play that, but it's not something that I can buy - not enough disposable income for it. I'm not a collector and I'm not going to pretend to be one. I enjoy the nostalgia attached to watching a projected film and thats it.

On optical prints selling at reasonable prices: Again, I can only go by what I've seen so far. For under $100, there have been some cool optical sound films I wouldn't mind watching. It doesn't bother me that they are not collectable, or wouldn't have the greatest audio fidelity.

Thanks again to the responders. I'll be watching for a suitable projector.

best regards,
Lee

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 05, 2012, 11:41 AM:

Lee,

quote:
I enjoy the nostalgia attached to watching a projected film and thats it.

If that is the reason you join film collecting hobby, then I would suggest you to go to 16mm straight away rather than with 8mm. The reasons are:

1. To some extend some full feature 16mm films are cheaper than 8mm. (ps: 99.99% of 16mm films are with optical soundtrack). A full feature of 16mm can be around $25, even a faded color one was sold for $16!!. I opened a thread about that here:

Is 8mm generally selling more than 16mm?

2. 99.99% of 16mm projectors are with optical reader and sold cheaper than a 8mm projector with optical reader..

3. Picture is brighter and sharper than 8mm, due to better resolution.

4. Full feature films and TV episodes are available more (and easy) than 8mm ones.

While we are here, I have one 16mm projector Bell & Howell 2592 which is confirmed by other members to be a good projector. Here is the thread:

Received 2 Bell & Howell 16mm projectors, which one should I keep

I have no interest with 16mm and will sell this projector.If you are interested, you can email me at winbert (at) hotmail (dot) com. I am in Canada too so shipping will be cheaper than you buy from the States.

ps: I collect mostly digests (which are more available on 8mm) should you ask why I am not going into 16mm films.

cheers

Posted by Lee Romanow (Member # 3223) on September 05, 2012, 10:23 PM:

Thanks for the advice Winbert, that's very interesting and I'll definitely take the time to look at 16mm stuff the next time I'm browsing, and see what's out there.

What brought me into 8mm was the cheap aquisition of the projector, maybe a few new people come into it this way since the projectors still pop up now and again. I'll stick with what I have for awhile yet, its too early to quit (one film!)

regards,
Lee

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on September 05, 2012, 11:46 PM:

quote:
I collect mostly digests (which are more available on 8mm) should you ask why I am not going into 16mm films.

cheers

HEY three cheers for Winbert and SUPER DUPER 8 ! You the man! Digest Rocks! Don't get me started !

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