8mm Forum: Derann's "bad soundstripe" era (mid-90's)

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Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 12, 2012, 11:38 AM:

Well, here's a topic thats been touched on before, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

As many here know, there was a period of time when Derann was transitioning from pre-striped film, to different sound stripes, some which were very bad. I was a victim to one of these bad sound stripe prints, and I've been experimenting with it.

In the mid-90's, I bought a brand-new print of "ALIEN", in scope/stereo. When it arrived, I found this to be, visually, the most perfect print. With perfect sharpness, colors, brightness, basically a perfect print in every way- except for the soundtrack. At some parts, it sounds ok, but other part drop, or the dialog is hard to understand. Sometimes when music is playing, it sounds like its going up and down, and then an occasional "bump" is heard. With that said, it was still o.k.

When I called Derann to arrange an exchange, they advised that ALIEN was no longer available, so only a refund would be possible. I decided to keep it.

I have recently experimented with re-recording the first 400 feet of the movie. One interesting problem I found is that, no matter how many times I try to erase the original sound, there are still traces of the sound there. So, you can still hear the old sound (lightly), and the new track, and even that won't record very strongly. I decided to leave the rest of the track alone until I can find a way to erase the old track.

Has anyone else attempted to re-record one of those "bad tracks"? I would be interested to know what problems/successes you had.

Thanks.

James.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on October 12, 2012, 12:13 PM:

Hi James,
Which projector are you using to re-record with?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on October 12, 2012, 12:24 PM:

James, I don;t think soundtrack can be permanent since this is magnetic tape.

If you have a very strong magnet that the sound will be removed completely. It is not like digital disc where the sound (well... "data") is burnt onto the disc.

The problem probably on your eraser head which is not strong enough to erase the soundtrac from the stripe..

There is a gear that can erase the magnetic soundtrack on musc cassette in a second. You just need to place the cassete in the box and turn in on for few second then the sound will be completely removed. So the tape does not need to actually pass the eraser head.

So if you put your reel into this box, the soundtrack will be removed too. Do not worry it will not removed the picture... [Big Grin]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 12, 2012, 01:05 PM:

That's a very good suggestion Winbert,I remember one of the
problems DFS had with their sound when they first tried it on
a machine was that it sounded muffled until the heads were
adjusted and it was clear.Perhaps the same thing might apply
here, where perhaps the soundhead need be adjusted to enable
a clean wipe.

[ October 13, 2012, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on October 12, 2012, 03:37 PM:

In line with what Winbert stated, here's a tape eraser I still have that I bought at Radio Shack in the '70s to use for reel to reel tapes....you can borrow it if you want to try it, let me know

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 13, 2012, 05:52 AM:

Thanks for those great suggestions guys!

I tried the erase on two different projectors- the Sankyo ST-800, and the BAUER T-610. I found it very strange that the track could still be heard.

Joe- Thank you very much for the offer to use your device. I will try a few more things, and if it doesn't work, I'll message you to make arrangements to borrow it.

James.

Posted by Jeroen van Ooijen (Member # 1104) on October 13, 2012, 06:59 AM:

I found out that it was the projector Bauer t610 that not can erase the old soundtrack so i use the Elmo st1200HD to do it in 2 times first left then right,and away sound permanent! [Wink]

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 13, 2012, 08:18 AM:

Jeroen- I'm surprised about the T-610 not being able to erase. It has an abundance of switches and recording level indicaters, and was one of Bauer's top model projectors.

I bought it used, and unfortunately it didn't come with an instruction manual. I've been tinkering with the recording switches just hoping to figure it out.

James.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 13, 2012, 10:47 AM:

I once had a print from Derann that my Eumig 938 could not totally erase, so that when I did a re-record I got an echo effect on the sound track, due to the slight time difference between the original (partially erased) recording and the new recording.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 13, 2012, 12:27 PM:

Right Paul- Thats exactly what happened with ALIEN. Its so strange, how can there be a magnetic track that can't be erased??? There should be a real market for that somewhere, really!

James.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on October 13, 2012, 08:32 PM:

It would be interesting to know if the equipment mentioned will COMPLETELY remove one of those difficult to erase Derann tracks. A related issue is that it's a moderately common problem to find releases striped by Derann that have annoying 'pops' and noise in the background. This has nothing to do with the recording process, it's 'built in' sound that has somehow appeared during the striping. Anyone who has a substantial number of Derann prints from the 1990s and 2000s would be very lucky if they have never found this. If erasing devices can remove this sound, that would be very good news for anyone re-recording.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 14, 2012, 04:02 AM:

What you have experienced is a common problem Nick. I even went so far as to try erasing all sound on a GS1200 or an SS1200 (can't remember which now) but still the original sound could just about be heard.

What I think I did was record the new sound as loud as I possibly could which negated the impact of the original recording as much as possible. However, given that this is a problem with the stripe on the print, each recording has a trace left so you need to get it right first time.

The Derann Super 8 release of Alien was not taken from an original 16mm negative so you'll be surprised to learn that it is not one of the best prints ever produced. But the good news is this means there are even better prints out there waiting to be discovered. I have two prints of this title, one a first-run print which is very good though a little too dark in places owing to all prints originating from a 35mm print and the second print is towards the end of production and is a bit all over the place in comparison but still good.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on October 15, 2012, 09:11 AM:

Nick....I have an industrial "belt" eraser here at work. I guarantee it will wipe out everything. We used to use it for reel to reel tapes and also cassettes. It's about 2 and half feet long. You place the reel on one end of the belt and turn it on.... it carries the reel down the belt over several major electromagnets. You are welcome to come over with the film and I can erase it for you. Whole process for each reel takes about 5 seconds.
Oh, sorry you couldn't make Cinesea this time. It was great.

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on October 15, 2012, 09:22 AM:

maybe it is the tape derann used when I was younger I obtained a cassette that was high bias when I recorded on it with simple cassette recorder I could still hear the previous recording in the background maybe derann used a high quality tape?

[ October 15, 2012, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on October 16, 2012, 07:58 AM:

If the track was applied unevenly, then it will not erase correctly either. The track would have been added via professional dubber and if the mag track was not applied perfectly, most if not all domestic Super 8 projector heads won't be able to erase all of the original sound.

Large magnet anyone?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 16, 2012, 09:07 AM:

As a matter of fact David, I do posess an extremely powerful magnet. I used to work on military microwave magnetrons, and I was able to get hold of an Alnico V horseshoe magnet off an X-band magnetron. It is so powerful that if you put a steel bar across it you cannot get it off. There was a story at Litton Electron Devices where I worked, that one of our salesman was carrying one of these magnetrons in a cloth bag to a customer in New York. He went down onto the subway platform and stood a little too close to one of those steel support girders. The magnet in the bag snapped over to the girder, almost impailing the guy's hand in the process. It took a tire lever to pry the thing away from the post! [Big Grin]

I don't know if this is realy true or not, but it makes a good story! I do know that the magnet is super powerful and it will destroy a watch 6 inches away.
I have never tried erasing super 8 mag stripe with this thing, but I am absolutely sure that it would wipe off everything, so I may give it a try.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 16, 2012, 09:24 AM:

Sounds like a job for the "X-Men" Paul, and a good excuse to wear
a "Magneto" super villain costume.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 16, 2012, 01:49 PM:

Thank you for all the great feed-back everyone. The subject is so interesting, and seems to have effected most of us at one time or another.

Gary- That would be great! I will send you an email soon to make arrangements. Maybe I could just try the 400 foot reel I've been tampering with already first. I hate to bother the rest of the movie until I can make an effective recording on this first reel. PS- Sorry I couldnt make it to CINESEA- glad you had a great time!

James.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 16, 2012, 01:57 PM:

There's a sobering thought James, that at a moments notice there
are any amount of people wanting to erase your soundtracks!

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on October 16, 2012, 06:44 PM:

[Eek!]

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 17, 2012, 09:34 AM:

Jim, the sound stripe in question is paste stripe.

David, the paste stripe was never applied perfectly - it's amazing Derek sussed it out at all let alone managed to get adequate recordings for the most part. I should add, some of the stripe applied at Derann was very good and fabulous re-recordings are possible. At other times though, it's poor and the original Derann recording is the best that can be achieved.

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on October 17, 2012, 10:51 AM:

ok now explain a paste strip to me, are not all films made with paste strips?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on October 17, 2012, 11:07 AM:

Hi Jim,paste stripe is just what it says, a liquid paste that is applied
to the film by people like Derann, laminated stripe is the tape
of which you mention that is applied with adhesive to your films.
there were a number of machines that the amateur could use to apply it, or have it done professionally.Laminated did not adhere
to mylar or estar film stocks.Hope this helps.
As a post script, John is absolutely right,if Derek Simmonds hadn't
persevered with his experiments, then film collecting would have become a secondhand domain sooner than it did.

[ October 17, 2012, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Hugh Thompson Scott ]

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on October 17, 2012, 12:32 PM:

Guys, let me caution you to never erase a tape or film stripe with any form of fixed magnet. Only the lowest quality tape recorders ever used such a thing. Gary's electromagnet belt, or a carefully applied bulk tape eraser, is the ideal, so long as you move the reel slowly.

A fixed magnet erases the track by applying a strong one-pole "charge" to the magnetic particles, in essence recording a maximum-strength north OR south. The problems with this include the possible transference of that strong magnetization to the metal parts of your machine, which can then in turn slightly erase everything else you run through it; also, it will make an excellent subsequent recording more difficult, because you're recording into particles that are already strongly magnetized, not neutral.

So an Alternating Current electromagnet is ideal because it can render the magnetic material back to randomness.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 17, 2012, 01:10 PM:

I do agree with James on this. While most DErann prints have very good mag stripe (especialoly before the grey stripe era), sometimes that soundstripe can be downright poor.

I have a Derann print of "BEN HUR" that, while the main stripe is OK, the balance stripe constantly goes from super thin to fat and alternates like that constantly throughout the whole print ...

... which effects he stereo reporduction when viewed, of course.

However, having said that, aren't we all damned glad that Derann was there in the "foist" place?

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on October 17, 2012, 03:53 PM:

The difference between paste & laminate stripe . Laminate was glued to the film stock, but would only stick to acetate based film stock. You could stripe your own films using laminate stripe. It was supplied on reels for home use, lots of manufactures used to advertise their machines in the various film magazines.

When polyester stock arrived, the first 8mm probably from Fuji in their Single 8mm camera film. The unexposed film could be striped with laminate stripe as the glue to stick it was on the emulsion of the film. After developing it was impossible to stick to the film stock.

I believe for printing super 8mm on polyester stock 35mm or 16mm was used and supplied pre-striped on the emulsion again after developing like with Fuji the magnetic stripe was still there. When Kodak stopped making pre-stripe (due I think to banned chemicals) the supply of packaged films almost stopped overnight.

This man who must be the hero to ALL film collectors Derek Simmonds who’s faith in collectors the world over, put his money where his mouth was and invested in a paste stripping machine. The paste as the name implies is in liquid form and this had to be at the correct constancy. An article in Film For The Collector (I think) mentioned the trials & errors, tearing of hair and spoiled film over the first few months till they got it right. The machine had lots of rollers and a large drying cabinet where the film was looped up and down quite a few times to curer the paste. Pressure rollers were used to flatten the paste onto the film. This is from memory.

I had to send a couple of prints back due to the paste just lifting off the film.

Remember the balance stripe was just that, to allow the film to spool level. At one time Walton Films stopped putting it on their films, they got loads of complaints and started putting it back on. Think to have stereo sound on super8 is a minor miracle.

Back in the 80’s I sent some black leader film to have stripe put on this was paste, the company could have been Film Facility’s Magnetic.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 18, 2012, 02:36 AM:

Kodak stopped supplying pre-stripe stock because it was uneconomic. The banning of chemical stories were all a bit of a smoke screen to hide the truth.

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on October 18, 2012, 04:48 AM:

I suppose John's statement could be called Clancy-fied information. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on October 18, 2012, 05:35 AM:

So they used the old ‘Global Warming’ scam to make people think it wasn’t Kodak then. Looks like they made a mistake stopping production, now that they have gone bust. Like to think that’s why.

My theory on ‘Global Warming’ its not caused by power stations or cars because aren’t these products derived from trees, plant and animal life millions of years ago. If that is true they are carbon neutral.
No global warming stems from TV & communication satellites. They work on low powered microwave transmissions. Just think about what that means?

Back to magnetic stripe on film, is any company out there that can stripe film? UK preferred. I have almost used all my black striped leader, and will soon require some more doing. Its plastic type.

Would the profile be different between laminate and paste stripe? This could make a big difference to the sound heads on your projector. Not sure about this but would the heads wear and possibly cause problems if your films were mainly one type of stripe and then play another type? I know paste stripe had rollers to smooth it out.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on October 18, 2012, 11:31 AM:

According to D. Cheshire Book of S/8 Filmmaking, paste stripe is a little more abrasive than laminated.

Poly film can only accept paste stripe; celluloid accepts both types. Switching from one type to another on the same film will cause a certain audible difference, though it's almost impossible to say which type of stripe putperforms the other, if both striping have been done as state-of-the-art. Also some slight variations in the focus might have to taken into account if using a very fast lens (F1.0). As a rule of thumb you should always have just one type of stripe on a given film.

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