quote:

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for those of us with 50hz electricity, further adjustment can be made by switching the flag inside the back cover to 60cycles, allowing 16.66 frames per second

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John, how do you get to 16.66 fps? When I calculate it, the change of the setting from 50 to 60 Hz should make it 16.66 % slower but you'd achieve 15 fps then. Or am I seeing something wrong here?
 

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Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on January 17, 2013, 03:06 AM:
 
To clarify the last two posts for those who may think that moving the flag actually CHANGES the speed.......it doesn't, the movement of the flag simply allows the front panel speed knob a different range of movement, giving a different range of speeds. It compensates for the fact that different mains frequencies result in different film speeds because the motor runs at different speeds.
With my 810d, I achieve 16.666 fps for transfer by means of a very simple Triac control circuit inserted in one motor lead and controlled by an external hand operated potentiometer.
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 17, 2013, 07:22 AM:
 
Great stuff! So what is the result of switching the Hz flag on the S807D please?

We are talking standard UK mains voltage.

Thanks,
 

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Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on January 17, 2013, 07:59 AM:
 
The flag should show the 60 Hz reading horizontally. Then you have to lower the speed slider on the main side; for conveninece in setting its position, you can have the machine run with lamp on and your camera at 50 Hz; move the slider until you see no flicker at all in the viewfinder. You''l be amazed - it's very easy.

Alternatively if your camera allows for non-standard shutter setting, in the past I achieve excellent results with a 3-balded shutter Sankyo 800: by setting the camera's shutter speed at 45,5Hz flicker was totally cancelled without touching the projector's speed. Perhaps you may want to try this too.
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 17, 2013, 08:10 AM:
 
Thanks Maurizio,

Well I'll be! You mean that slider runs through a *range* of speeds? I thought it was a hard-wired switch from 18 to 24 set speeds! Now I can see that the Hz flag position determines different regions on the slider.

Can't wait to try this out. My cam has a 1/50 manual setting which synchronises three times 16.67fps (=50).

My Bell&Howell is a two blader so I have to run it at 25fps (2x25=50).

Will update
 

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Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on January 17, 2013, 01:44 PM:
 
Perfectly spot on, Richard, included the fact the speed lever runs through a range of speeds (like always in Eumig machines using this arrangement).
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 17, 2013, 06:20 PM:
 
Thanks Maurizio,

Can anyone kindly identify the capstan (or how to locate it) that drives the flywheel please?

This shows the lamphouse side of the projector with the lamp temporarily removed.

S807D interior

Either the film is missing the capstan or the capstan is just not turning, which would explain the stationary flywheel?

S807D flywheel

Thanks again,
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 17, 2013, 06:40 PM:
 
The capstan should be in the film path after the gate but before the sound head. If it's not there, it can't be anywhere!

If you turn the flywheel manually you should be able to see it rotating on the same shaft.
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 17, 2013, 08:14 PM:
 
Thanks Steve,

There is the problem. If you follow the line of the wheel shaft through the projector it would emerge in the general region of the audio panel, on the opposite side of the projector.

capstan / flywheel shaft

Any idea how to remove this panel please? There is a large screw to undo but the panel is then held in place by the tone, volume and also the main selector dial just beneath the speed slider.

I can't see any method for removing these knobs, there are no screws locking them to their shafts that I can see?

There's also the Super / Regular sound switch right on top of the capstan, in fact this unit including the switch effectively conceals the capstan. I am wondering if 'N' or 'S' settings might affect the flywheel / capstan? That's a long shot.

capstan / gauge select, audio unit

[ January 17, 2013, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Richard Kemp ]
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 17, 2013, 09:11 PM:
 
On my Eumig they pull off their shafts.

(The knobs are held on by friction only.)

Be gentle, but be firm!
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 17, 2013, 09:18 PM:
 
That is helpful Steve.

How crucial is getting that flywheel in motion please - what will be the result of it remaining static?

Thanks,
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 17, 2013, 11:07 PM:
 
For silents it doesn't matter at all. For sound films it's night and day.

The problem you have here is you have two kinds of motion going on at the same time. The film in the gate moves, stops, is projected onto the screen(three times actually) and then moves on to the next frame before starting all over again. The film past the sound heads is just a continuous flow at constant speed.

The average speed is the same, but one is stopping, bursting forward and stopping, and one is just sliding by like a river.

How is this possible in the same piece of film?

There’s a loop of film below the gate. One end is pulsating from the action of the claw in the gate, the other is constant speed. Since there is no tension in the loop, most of the pulsation is used up in the loop vibrating back and forth, but you still need something with a lot of inertia to really smooth it out: that's why there is a flywheel right before the heads with a roller on the film surface.

A sound projector without a functioning flywheel couldn't isolate this pulsation from the sound heads, and whether it was a war picture or not, you might just hear a sound something like machine guns in your sound.

It's one of those nice, simple solutions to problems smart men figured out before they started writing "code" to make the World right (so far: not so good!).

I bet you can fix it!

When you find the capstan see if it clamps down on the film when you go into "forward/project". Usually it remains disengaged so you can thread the film. Maybe it's hung up...
 

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Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on January 18, 2013, 12:01 PM:
 
Please remove the lower portion of the cover and take some more photos of the area comprising the pinch roller (a black rubber roller) and the track selector: this way the flywheel shaft (capstan) should be visible and we should be able to figure out what is keeping it from spinning.
 

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Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 18, 2013, 12:14 PM:
 
Hold on tharrr!

On this machine the roller is after the heads, isn't it?

My mistake....

It would be better if it was before the heads, but it still helps.
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 18, 2013, 12:18 PM:
 
Thanks Steve & Maurizio,

If I can remove the panel knobs - & if I can do this without harming the projector - I will remove the panel. Otherwise I considered carefully unscrewing the 'N-S' unit and removing it to reveal the capstan, since I do not use sound strip film.

But first I'm going to experiment with the speed slider, just to make sure I can get 16.67fps here?

Bests,
 

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Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on January 18, 2013, 01:11 PM:
 
Richard,
DO NOT remove the "N-S unit"! You will not see the capstan any better if you do and you may break one of the attached wires. YOU may not use sound film at the moment, but if you break one of those wires you will find it difficult to mend for anyone who may want to use sound later.It may look to be easy... but it's even easier to be wise AFTER the event!
Do as Maurizio says... remove the panel.
1. Pull off the sound control knobs... they push fit.
2 Pull off the Forward/Reverse knob... it push fits.
3. Unscrew the large flat screw between the sound knob spindles (it's captive).
4. Grip the edge of the panel at the front end and pull it gently towards you. It will swing about the spring clip at the rear end and then pull away. Job done.
5. To put it back, engage the spring clip at the rear end, push the front end in and do up the screw.

With the panel off you will be able to see everything.

DON'T disassemble anything unless you are sure what you are doing!. If you are truly mechanically competent I have some helpful documents on this series of machines that may prove useful; PM or email me if I can help.
Martin
 

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Posted by Richard Kemp (Member # 1621) on January 18, 2013, 01:47 PM:
 
Thanks for saving the day, Martin!

Will update - Can I just confirm that running the flywheel will affect the projection of silent films please? If it will have no effect on silent films - I do not run or make sound films - then there is no point in me interfering further with the Eumig, which is running very well at the moment.

Please advise,

Many thanks for all the helpful advice!

[ January 18, 2013, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Richard Kemp ]
 

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Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on January 18, 2013, 03:32 PM:
 
Fortunately Martin preceeded me: once I broke one of those wires attached at the N-S selector, meaning one of them came apart practicalyy because I... err stared at it! So follow Martin's advice and just remove that panel, that's the way to go. And yes on this machine (like in every sound projector regardless of gauge) the capstan/pinch roller assembly is placed AFTER the sound heads. Only the GS 1200 has an extra tiny roller placed right before the heads to further smooth the film's motion.

PLease post photos of what you will see once the cover is removed: I am very curious to see what prevents the flywheel from spinning...
 

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