8mm Forum: Standard 8mm or Regular8

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Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 09, 2013, 07:02 PM:

Are there many of our forum members still collecting in this gauge
in silent or sound?

Posted by Julian Baquero (Member # 2520) on August 09, 2013, 07:06 PM:

Hi Hugh, I just bought a EUMIG Mark S standard 8mm projector and finally got it to work. I have just a couple of films in standard 8mm, but I am interested in starting a collection. I already own several super 8 machines and 16mm, needless to say I would also love to have a portable 35mm projector.

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on August 09, 2013, 07:35 PM:

I love Standard 8mm and have many features and shorts in this gauge and still collect this format to this day. My favorite projector so far for projection is the Kodak Analyst 8mm, runner up is the Bolex M8. Long live 8mm!

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 09, 2013, 07:43 PM:

Yesterday I got some new titles ... Will see through during the weekend if I have the time. I use an Eumig Mark-S 710D

Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on August 09, 2013, 07:48 PM:

I have quite a few regular 8mm films. However, I don't have very many sound ones, seems like I don't run across them very often.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 09, 2013, 08:03 PM:

I love standard 8mm. I love the super high quality, all metal, standard 8mm projectors and cameras made by Bolex and Bell & Howell. I love double run 8mm camera film.
I think a good case can be made that super 8mm was unnecessary, and that it added nothing that would not have been achieved with standard 8mm. Fairchild already had a double 8mm magnetic sound camera in 1963! Certainly super 8 was a step backward in terms of the plastic Kodak cartridge - far inferior to the double run 8mm film which utilised precision metal camera gates. What were Kodak thinking?
When all the super 8 plastic projectors and cameras have fallen by the wayside, the 8mm metal cameras and projectors will still be running like new.

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on August 09, 2013, 11:43 PM:

I too like collecting standard 8, I have a few projectors that are easy to fix as it is usually the lamp or belts to look at when trouble strikes.

I recently aquired an Elmo Standard8 sound projector and have slowly been building up a collection of films, true there arn't alot around but I still have managed to get about 10 over the last few months!

But also like Super8 and 16mm and one day hopefully I will move into the 35mm guage [Smile]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 10, 2013, 01:08 AM:

I like (and have films and material in) double 8, super 8, 9,5 and 16 mm. The only gauge for which I have no camera and thus never shoot in is 16mm.

Posted by Akshay Nanjangud (Member # 2828) on August 10, 2013, 01:40 AM:

Spare a thought for me. I have had 'The Devil Doll' on Standard 8mm for two years but haven't watched it yet. Still searching for an 8mm sound projector.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 10, 2013, 04:41 AM:

I have never collected on Standard 8, only Super 8 and 16mm.

For any members wishing to add Standard 8 films to their collection be advised that Independent 8 always have plenty of titles on offer.

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on August 10, 2013, 05:14 AM:

I went into Std8 about ten yrs ago & still collect it; some titles or subjects are just impossible to find in other guages! [Wink]

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on August 10, 2013, 07:36 AM:

I was just going to say just the same.Some of the rarest titles in my collection are in std 8 and have not been issued in super,although in 16 mm you can find practically everything.But if you have decided to stay with 8 mm, for reasons of space,wallet size and personal sanity,and especially if you are looking for "older stuff", std 8 is a must!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 10, 2013, 08:42 AM:

Hugh
I think you should alter the heading, as it is it reads as one versus the other.
I suggest "Standard/Regular 8".

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on August 11, 2013, 09:13 AM:

I've picked up some great Standard 8mm sound features at the CineSea conventions, among them Psycho and The Night Caller. I also got a hold of a very nice Eumig Mark S 810D from John Capazzo.

Doug

Posted by Joe McAllister (Member # 825) on August 11, 2013, 10:29 AM:

I have a number of Std 8mm films in my collection including many that are rare on any guage. ie "Storm over Asia" full length feature, plus some kodak amber prints. One title is a silent British feature from 1928 that was never released to the cinemas as the coming of sound overtook it. Instead there was a sound remake with many of the same cast. So the silent version was never released in any medium apart from std 8 as far as I can discover. There is also a wealth of home movies on the guage.

Many of the silent shorts found on Std 8mm are in fact superior in quality to Super 8mm copies made years later when the masters were in poorer condition and the print stock had less silver and therefore less tonal range.

Sadly getting a projector with the light output of Super 8mm machines to get the best from the format is difficult.My silent machine is a Bolex M8 which has a converted light source (24v 250w) which coupled with a HiFi 12.5mm lens gives me a picture that rivals the best super 8mm light output.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on August 11, 2013, 02:23 PM:

I have about 30 Blackhawk railroad films and 75% of them are standard 8 silent. I also have many 200' digests of Ken/Castle/etc. in standard 8. A few sound titles as well. I love standard 8.

Back in 2010 I shot about 10 rolls of standard 8 Kodachrome of my son and his car projects and the footage is just beautiful. I had been setting on it and the developing deadline forced me to use it up! It will be a nice keepsake for my son to look back on. And years from now it will still look beautiful.

Bill [Smile]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 11, 2013, 02:34 PM:

Nice to know from all contributors that the old bootlace still lives
on.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on August 11, 2013, 03:11 PM:

I have more R8 titles than S8. Several Helen Holmes railroad features, Tom Mix, Buster Keaton, Chaplin,various cartoons, A&B, and a couple Syfy. Most are silent...but a few with sound. I enjoy them all.

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on August 11, 2013, 04:07 PM:

Joe, I would love to know the title of the std8 silent 1928 feature, that you own.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 12, 2013, 05:48 AM:

Std 8 was the norm, I actively hunt for the sound and silent subjects, they were so sharp and clean, yes? - Taking nothing aways from Super 8 - call it regular, standard or single, I find this gauge particularly intriguing because all the rarest films were printed on this since it's 1932 inception - The search is ever-fascinating - Shorty

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 12, 2013, 05:53 AM:

Joe
Single?

Posted by Bradford A Moore (Member # 426) on August 12, 2013, 07:21 AM:

Some of my rarest titles for sure are in 8mm. A few of Lon Chaney, The Monster, The Unholy Three, He Who Gets Slapped, and West Of Zanzibar. Here are some other features too. Witchcraft Through the Ages, The Goose Woman, Dr. Mabuse, America, The Kid Brother, Ectasy, Tabu, Golem. I generally have to agree with what others have said, 8mm, can be sharper, and have better focus too.

More than not my 8mm features are some of the best in my collection, and can hold up against anything I've seen on 16mm. For those of you who haven't given 8mm a try, I would suggest doing so.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 12, 2013, 08:08 AM:

The good news with Standard 8 is that so many features made it onto the gauge and probably well over 500 at that. My favourite has always been Ghost of Frankenstein along with The Invisible Man which are very good quality prints and worth looking out for. Once again Derann spearheaded the UK Std 8 feature scene with the legendary hire library along with many others back in the 60’s and beyond with many memorable films lining the pages.

Full length features like..
Island of Terror
Orders are Orders
Magnificent Obsession
Monster Maker
Touch of Evil
Brief Encounter
Night Caller
Beast from haunted cave
Blue Skies
Psycho
Devil Doll

Were all popular rentals back in the day. [Cool]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 12, 2013, 08:16 AM:

Don't forget "Hercules" Lee, and "Ulysses", "Evil of Frankenstein",
"Something Creeping in the Dark", "Night of the Damned","The
Projected Man","To Hell & Back", all in glorious colour, std 8mm
features of course.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 12, 2013, 03:02 PM:

Yes, single - British term

Posted by Bryan Chernick (Member # 1998) on August 12, 2013, 05:59 PM:

I don't collect very many commercial films, I like to shoot and project home movies. I shoot both Regular 8mm and Super 8 but I prefer Regular 8mm. I think both the cameras and projectors are a lot more fun to work with. There are so many more varieties in the designs of Regular 8mm cameras and projectors than there are for Super 8. In my opinion Super 8 cameras and projectors are mostly plastic boxes that were made in a few factories in Japan to very similar specifications. I know, some are much better than others but they lack the variety in basic design that there was with Regular 8mm.

My 8mm projectors include a Bolex M8, Bolex 18-5 and a Keystone K109D. My Bolex cameras include a H8 Rex 4, H8 (non-reflex), C8, B8, B8L, D8L, P1, P2 and K2. I also have a Nizo Helomatic and a Sekonic Dualmatic. They're made of metal and leather and built to last.

Posted by John Hermes (Member # 1367) on August 12, 2013, 06:22 PM:

"I love standard 8mm. I love the super high quality, all metal, standard 8mm projectors and cameras made by Bolex and Bell & Howell. I love double run 8mm camera film.
I think a good case can be made that super 8mm was unnecessary, and that it added nothing that would not have been achieved with standard 8mm. Fairchild already had a double 8mm magnetic sound camera in 1963! Certainly super 8 was a step backward in terms of the plastic Kodak cartridge - far inferior to the double run 8mm film which utilised precision metal camera gates. What were Kodak thinking?
When all the super 8 plastic projectors and cameras have fallen by the wayside, the 8mm metal cameras and projectors will still be running like new."
I have transferred Reg 8, Super 8, and 16mm films for almost thirty years and have seen probably a couple million feet of film. Regular 8 has its own share of problems: complete rolls fogged by not loading in darkness, rolls inadvertently double exposed, footage jittery due to not threading correctly, etc. Even regular 8 magazines have the annoying characteristic of a different frame line for almost every roll. Too much frame area was wasted by using the 16mm perforations. The super 8 frame has 50% more area which certainly, all thing equal, yields a finer grained, sharper image. I agree that the super 8 silent and sound cartridges were poorly designed, leading to potential jams and unsteady footage. However, the super 8 frame used the 8mm width much more effectively.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 03:57 AM:

Sorry Joe, Single 8 is the same as super 8 ,different cartridge,
Standard 8mm in the UK is Regular 8 in the US.
I think Single 8 was Fuji.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 05:30 AM:

Is it also called double 8 in the UK and the US or only in one of both countries ?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 13, 2013, 06:32 AM:

In the UK we had "8mm Double Run", and "25ft double eight, 50 ft 8mm after processing".

Reference: Wallace Heaton 1954 catalogue Cine Apparatus.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 08:21 AM:

So, Maurice, you mean that in the UK double 8 does not reffer (or is not commonly used to reffer) to the gauge itself but on the shooting "double exposure" system ?

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 08:32 AM:

To put it simply Dominique, the std 8mm 25' was a double 8 roll,
for cine shooting, once split, was std 8mm for projection, although
the gauge was usually referred as std 8.Remember,the film had
to be turned over in cine shooting, thus the "double 8 " name, as
the film was then split & joined to make up the normal 50' spool.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 13, 2013, 08:36 AM:

I love filming with Super-8, as a matter of fact I'm editing a new film this week.

-but I would have been happier if Kodak had gone with something more like the Fuji Single-8 system. It does eveything the kodapak cartridge does plus rewinding for double exposures and allow a metal pressure plate to hold the film in steadier focus.

-plus it's just simpler.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 09:18 AM:

That is so true Sreve, Single 8 gave the properties of std 8 to s/8,
and the single 8 cameras like the Fuji PI & 2 fit into a pocket.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 10:43 AM:

Hello Hugh. I know the double 8 camera system as my first projector and camera were in this gauge (I received them in the early eighties when I was a kid from people who had turned into super 8). I was wondering if in English "double 8" refers only to the shooting system, like when you talk about double super 8 or if double 8 is also (like in French) used to refer to the gauge (double 8 camera, a double 8 film, a double 8 projector for examples).

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 13, 2013, 10:45 AM:

Kodak's standard 8 25' roll was, in fact, 16mm in width, (with double the number of perforations.) It was exposed down one side width and at the end the spools were changed over for the remaining 25' to be exposed.

With the actual film being 16mm wide it could be processed on 16mm developing machines.

After being processed it was slit down the middle and the two halves joined to make 50' of film which was returned to the user in the good old yellow box.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 12:57 PM:

As far as I'm aware Dominique, the "double 8" bit is only for raw stock, as double S/8 or quad s/8, as would be used by labs in
printing film.As Maurice correctly stated, it was a 25' strip of
film re-punched for amateur use.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 01:50 PM:

Thanks. Just for information, I see that both of you, Maurice and Hugh are using past tense about the double 8 shooting. But there is still filmstock for this gauge and the system has not changed, so I think we can use the present. Who could had forseen in 1965 or in 1985 that there would still be double 8 stock in 2013 ?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 13, 2013, 02:04 PM:

I am not implying that standard 8 is no longer available. My comments refer to its original introduction in answer to previous questions.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 02:08 PM:

Good. In English it has probably a different effect than it would have been in French. [Smile]

The most important is that gauge, too is still alive and seems to attract some interest.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 02:15 PM:

Very true Dominique, but look at 9.5, this little film gauge is still
tickling along after all these years, a credit to the users all these
years hence.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 02:20 PM:

I shoot in 9,5 at the beginning of July, the preceding time was in June. I didn't bring my camera on holiday only for technical reasons (the security checkings in Israel are strict and they can open your gun looking camera which of course ruins your film).

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 13, 2013, 02:43 PM:

Well done Dominique, it's good to know that folks like yourself
still use a film gauge like 9.5. Makes you wonder if the digital stuff
will last as long.I've said it before, and I'll say it again, use this
stuff now, enjoy it, get your fun out of it, tomorrow is an eternity
away.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 13, 2013, 02:47 PM:

You're so right, Hugh.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 13, 2013, 04:34 PM:

One of the great joys of Standard 8mm is being able to use cameras like this:

Posted by Erik Snel (Member # 4017) on November 18, 2013, 03:05 PM:

i love standard 8 as well as super 8, i even have 16mm and a few 9,5 mm films. i own more than enough projectors to use with those films (135 to be exact yes i know i collect stuff [Smile]

, and 87 of them are build by eumig.

a footnote, the difference between super and single 8 was not only the cartridge, super 8 was made of cellulose acetate and single 8 of polyeste. this made it stronger so the film could be thinner and the reels in the cartridge smaller.

standard 8 is called in holland dubbel 8 (double 8) or just 8mm and super 8 just super 8 [Smile]

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 18, 2013, 04:43 PM:

In French, it is also called double 8. It seems from what what written on this forum that standard 8 or regular 8 (following if you are in the US or in the UK) refers to the gauge and that double 8 reffers only to the camera film system.

Posted by John Yapp (Member # 2873) on November 18, 2013, 06:51 PM:

So Maurice, does this mean that every roll of std 8mm has a splice after 25ft?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 19, 2013, 02:36 AM:

Yes, John, it has, although I am not sure what size spool the Bolex H8 camera used.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 19, 2013, 03:26 AM:

I collect silents in the R8 format, features preferrably [Smile]

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 21, 2013, 01:59 PM:

I have a couple of standard 8 films, but nothing to show them on. What is a good projector to buy?

Are these OK Silma 240 which was also a Prinz Compare Standard 8 from Dixons. Or Eumigs, which ever must be sound

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 21, 2013, 04:26 PM:

I had bad experience with the Silma. I had the same problem with two projectors : the speed button (at the rear of the machine) not responding anymore.

Posted by John Last (Member # 3414) on November 23, 2013, 10:53 AM:

Standard 8 is great! I've just edited a 1959 film that I took all those years ago and it's as good as new. I have a Eumig S 712 and a Eumig Mark S for sale (both v.good sound projectors) if any one is interested.

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on November 24, 2013, 07:28 PM:

At the time Super 8 was introduced...Consumer Reports did a review of the new film format. Their conclusion was that Super 8 offered no significant improvement to justify replacing working standard 8mm equipment.
The higher priced Super 8 cameras did offer improved resolution over Standard 8mm, but many super 8 cameras had inferior plastic lenses, whose picture was sometimes inferior to standard 8mm.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 24, 2013, 08:43 PM:

In fact, super 8 was a step backwards in many ways. The tatty Kodak plastic cartridge was a boondoggle - Fuji showed how to do it properly with their single 8 cartridge. For whatever reason, prime lenses were abandoned in favour of zoom lenses for both camera and projectors, and a lot of these were plastic instead of glass. So picture quality went out of the window with a lot of cameras and projectors. Most cameras and projectors also seemed to switch from metal to plastic construction at the time of super 8 introduction.
IMO no super 8 camera ever matched the quality that could be obtained with Bolex 8mm cameras fitted with prime Kern Switar lenses.
Yes, super 8mm in theory should be 50% better than regular 8, but in practice this was rarely realised. And there were no technical advances achieved on super 8 that could not have also been obtained on standard 8.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 25, 2013, 06:14 AM:

And we had to pay more for using Kodak's new baby. Standard 8 film ran at 16fps, whereas Super 8 ran at 18fps. Did they ever say why the change in speed was necessary?

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on November 25, 2013, 10:57 AM:

Kodak set 18 fps for Super 8 to adhere to the ASA (American Standards Association) standardised "silent" speed adopted in 1960 for 16mm projection. Some manufacturers such as Bolex changed from 16 to 18 fps well before Super 8.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 25, 2013, 11:00 AM:

I also wondered why there was a 16 to 18 fps move. From what I readed (not exactly about that but about filming at 24 fps instead of 18 or 16 fps), a higher speed improves the sound (at least it was like this before) and the picture. It also allows the film to heat less when it pass in front of the projector lamp. But does 2fps really make a difference ? Or is it more, as suggested, to make you buy more filmstock ?

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on November 25, 2013, 11:07 AM:

John, I am unable to send you a PM.

Could you provide some more info on the Mark S you are selling, and possibly pictures?

What is your asking price?

My mail is ch.bjorgen@gmail.com

regards
Chris

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on November 25, 2013, 11:09 AM:

2 fps doesn't sound much but it's a 12.5% (1/8th) increase on 16 fps. The change was justified by the American Standards Association to reduce flicker but many people pointed out that the Bell & Howell 16mm projector of the time overheated below 18 fps due to the slower speed of the cooling fan. Of course Super 8 was a more expensive format at 72 frames per foot not 80 frames per foot and 18 fps not 16 fps!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on November 26, 2013, 02:41 AM:

I quote from the Bell & Howell Projector Book by Edwyn Gilmour (Focal Press 1960):-
"The normal projector lamp to be used is a 750 watt lamp. For really large screens you can also use a 1000 watt lamp, provided you only project sound films at 24 f.p.s. Never use the 1000 watt lamp for projecting silent films at 16 f.p.s.; at that speed the cooling provided by the fan is insufficient."
The book refers to the wooden blimp models, 601 to 640.

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