8mm Forum: Elmo ST800 M/O

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Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 17, 2013, 07:59 PM:

I was wondering if anyone has a manual for this, or the plain old ST800? I just bought one on ebay, and wanted to check it out thoroughly when I get it later in the week or next week. Usually I have found that film projectors are pretty straightforward to use, but there is always the chance of something odd with a machine that is otherwise not obvious.

I've read a lot about elmos scratching films, etc, and was wondering also what I can do to keep this from happening? Some have talked of adding rollers, others have said it has to do with wear on one of the guides. I have an elmo 16CL for my 16mm films that I have been extremely happy with, and hope I can get this projector to work for me just as well as it's 16mm big brother.

This is going to be an upgrade for me from a Chinon sp350 that I bought a few years ago off of ebay, which has had problems from the very beginning. fortunately the seller refunded a big chunk of my money on that one! I'll post about the chinon on another thread at some point, as I'd like to get it working properly at some point too.

Here's hoping the elmo arrives in one piece, and is working properly when it does!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 17, 2013, 09:18 PM:

Hi Jon,

I have this machine and have the manual...somewhere! Once I find it I'd be willing to scan and send it to you

I've had mine 9 years now and have rebuilt it so much that the original parts are pretty much the gears, the gate and the frame. Beyond that it's basically a transplant recipient from another machine with new parts but a damaged frame.

For openers I can almost guarantee your sound will not work at first. Elmo used line voltage level switches everywhere in the machine, because low voltage switches have gold plated contacts and cost a lot. The nickel silver contacts in line voltage switches have a habit of building up oxides in storage and may not allow the audio signals through. Work them all a bunch of times (especially the red recording key) and the sound should come back. If that fails try plugging/unplugging the various audio jacks a few times.

In order to successfully rewind reels 400 feet and larger, you will probably need either the genuine Elmo 800 foot reel or the Gepe clone as a take-up. These have a large center hub that drops the film tension during rewind, preventing the clutch on the front spindle from slipping. Other than that you pass about 300 feet and rewind grinds to a halt. Then you have to get out and push!

Please don't let this stuff bother you too much: after all I've been through with mine it's the one machine I would choose if I only could bring one someplace. They are simpler than a lot of the glitzier Elmos, which if you find one in good shape (or make one like I did..) makes them very dependable.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 17, 2013, 10:20 PM:

thanks for the info steve!

I have a number of electronics projects to tackle, some that I have been putting of for many years. Finally, I'm going to buy some deoxit, and some of the associated preservative products. that will probably help a lot with the switches, etc.

I'm most concerned with the dreaded film scratching, though I have a few prints like woody woodpecker, that I really can't stand (his voice at least), and can use those to test it every so often. Hopefully it's as easy to clean the film guides, etc, as people say. I was hoping to find a way to convert it to manual loading instead of auto loading, but maybe that is just not feasible. I also just got a Bolex 18-5 that I need to go pick up on the weekend, i've read here that they are very gentle on the film and less likely than most projectors to scratch stuff, so once I convert the lamp to something a little more modern on that (assuming that's possible) it may be my go to projector for shorter silent films.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 19, 2013, 02:41 PM:

Hi Steve,

It turns out I was mistaken thinking it was an M/O machine. Strictly Magnetic. It turned up today in a box with pretty much no padding, but looks to have survived the trip OK. I didn't have time to really look it over yet, but I really like the swing open cover, and the way the lens pivots out of the way to make cleaning the gate a simple operation.

This one came with the user manual, original reel, a spare belt and the dust cover. It came also with a number of someone's family films, and it doesn't look like it was ever used by anyone for much else. I bet all told it's only had 50' of film through it maybe 30-50 times if that. I know my family watched their movies once or twice and pretty much put them away until I discovered them as a kid, and we watched them once or twice more. It really does look pretty much unused. Hoping that this is a trouble free machine!

Please do send me the service manual when you get a chance. from the looks of it, it's pretty straightforward to use and fix, but there's always something some engineer did their own way when designing most products.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 19, 2013, 05:19 PM:

Hi Jon,

I regret to say the only manual I have is the user's guide. As much as I'd love to have the service manual for this beast, I've never seen even a hint of one in almost a decade! They have to have existed once, but are beyond rare now.

It's one of the great things about these forums is that whenever you have a problem with one of these machines there's probably somebody here who can tell you what's going on, so this is the "service manual" right here.

It's great that you have a low mileage one. Wear of the film guides is a critical thing with these and they aren't easy to replace either.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 19, 2013, 07:13 PM:

I imagine a determined individual could make new guides, or simplify and get rid of the auto loading feature.

I really like how the 16CL works for loading and film transport - I don't think I had ever cleaned it until recently, and it has still never harmed a print, at least not with the nasty green lines, nor has it ever ripped through a few feet of sprocket holes on a lark, as one of the large EIKI xenon projectors I once had did to me. It's really too bad they never made something for super 8 as simple as the slot/channel loading CL-16

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 19, 2013, 07:56 PM:

They say given enough time and money you could fix the Titanic!

The biggest problem area that I've found with the ST-800 is the curved surface at the entrance of the sound head chute which flattens the lower loop before the heads.

It's supposed to have a valley in the middle so it only contacts the edges of the film, but given enough wear that curve wears to a flat and the edges move closer and closer to frame center and can put lines in the picture.

I also think this wear contributes to audible chatter, mostly because when I put a mint part in there it got much better.

You may need to remove the piece to see this, but it's worth checking out.

-if nothing else, it will tell you a lot about the mileage on the machine.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 20, 2013, 06:40 AM:

Well, the sound works. No scratchy volume pots or anything else like that. Quality I'll have to compare running right before or after the chinon sp350. It seemed more tinny, and less loud over all. Definitely not as good as the 16mm optical sound. The machine seemed a little noisier overall, but it could just need the insides cleaned and lubed a bit.

There was a problem with the takeup reel not winding the film tight enough. For what it's worth, the takeup reel is a German made Elmo reel made from plastic. Any thoughts on what could cause that?

I got lucky and the home movie that I played from the pile of them which came with it was of a stunt plane flying around. Not bad for amateur cinematography. Overall, seems like a solid machine. Thanks for describing the part near the sound head, I'll check that out and make sure it isn't worn out.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 20, 2013, 09:21 AM:

Hi jon, I have one of these too, not come across this problem on mine but I do know they have a spring tensioner adjustment on the rear arm, not sure if there is one on the front, probably I would say. It's just a spring loaded rachet, more tension on the spring stops the spindle from slipping when winding or rewinding. This model comes with an 800ft elmo reel with a large central core as standard to help the rewinding. This tension can be checked with a spring loading gauge(like a fishing scale)and the st 1200 service manual will tell you what the tension should be. Unfortunately I only have the user manual for the st800 but the st1200 service manual is available on this forum i'm sure. Hope this helps, good viewing.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 20, 2013, 10:30 AM:

Is this the thing where the film doesn't wind tight so it bulges out on one side of the supply reel until it overflows the reel upon rewind?

I've always wondered if that's really an issue of the film not being lubed enough, so that it doesn't allow itself to tighten down on the reel as it spools back up.

I have a couple that do this, but most don't, so I'm guessing it's either the film or the supply reel.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 20, 2013, 12:30 PM:

I only ran two films through, and neither have been lubed by me. I'll try running some filmguard on them when that shows up and see if it makes a difference before changing any spring tensions.

Thanks for the tip on the 1200 manual being helpful for that, I'll look for it and see.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 20, 2013, 02:28 PM:

I'm very interested in how your filmguard experiments work out.

I'm not sure how directly the rewind on the ST-1200 compares to the ST-800. I also have an ST-1200HD and the rewind is like the winch on a tow truck. I often use an 800 foot reel with a small diameter hub on the ST-1200 and it doesn't even break a sweat rewinding that reel. I think the ST-800s innards are actually closer to the ST-600/ST-180.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 20, 2013, 02:49 PM:

Here is a link to the service manual of the ST1200 which may be of help.
http://pokeysoft.no/movies/ReelStuff/ELMO-Projector-ST1200-Service-Manual-Digital-Reproduction.pdf

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 20, 2013, 08:01 PM:

Hmmmmm....

I just remembered something. I've had problems with the volume on mine getting fainter and fainter until all of a sudden I realized I have the volume knob full throttle and it's still not as loud as I like.

If you think the audio isn't powerful enough, you might have the same problem I've had. This is a symptom of oxides on the switch operated by the recording key.

With the machine powered down, try depressing and releasing the flat red key just above the volume knob a bunch of times and see if the sound gets louder.

In good shape these machines have good sound that's as loud as you need it. About two years ago I ran mine on the internal speaker in a big room with about 50 people and it did just fine.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 21, 2013, 07:34 AM:

Thanks for the tip on that switch. There's some stuff called deoxit from caig laboratories that is supposed to solve problems with bad switches and potentiometers, etc. They have a number of products that are supposed to clean and preserve contacts so they sound better. A little pricey, but I've been told they work. I plan on getting some soon. Also they make a solution that is supposed to be good for renewing rubber pinch rollers and cleaning them.

I wiped some armor all on the inside surface of the take up reel last night. And just tried it out this morning, works perfectly. Armorall is basically silicone emulsion of some sort with water as a carrier, not harmful to plastics, and makes things nice and slick. I'm guessing the better solution, though, is to live the film.

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 22, 2013, 02:40 PM:

So the armor all on the takeup reel stopped the uneven takeup, but I think the better all around solution would be to live the film properly. If one is not careful and puts armor all too close to the middle of the reel it can cause slippage when the first few feet of film is winding.

I have a new problem now, that when loading film, the pressure plate for the sound head has stopped lifting far enough. The film is now bumping into the plate or the pressure rollers and bunching up. I can life it manually and get the film to load properly, but it no longer wants to auto load. Any thoughts on what might have gone wrong? It looks like the linkage is not pushing it hard enough in the lamp off/stopped position. It allows the plate to close properly when in the lamp on/run position. Is there something sticking, or that needs oiling in there? Or something else that I should check?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 22, 2013, 04:44 PM:

I've seen this one myself.

1) Make sure the end of the leader is trimmed using the trimmer on the machine. It should be a shallow curve at the end.

2)Take the first inch of the leader and bend it further in the direction of the curl.

I've seen the sound chute not close tightly enough (crud lodged in the innards of the machine), but never not open wide enough.

-first time for everything though....

Posted by Jon Byler (Member # 3933) on September 22, 2013, 05:35 PM:

All of those precautions have been taken. I started a new thread with some videos that I found on YouTube hopefully explaining things better. I'm hoping not to have to take out the motor, etc in order to get at this stuff. New thread is here:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008584

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