8mm Forum: HDR telecine clips SUPER 8 and REGULAR 8mm

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Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 11, 2013, 04:13 PM:

Hi only want to show some hdr telecine clips i have done [Smile]

i run the film two times thru the projector one low exposure and one high exposure and then use my avisynth hdr script

all movies are from ebay

here is the link to them https://vimeo.com/user20493099/videos

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on October 12, 2013, 07:57 PM:

They look very nice! Do you have clips of the original film to see what has been improved?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 13, 2013, 12:14 AM:

Thanks [Smile]

you mean without denoise
or without denoise and hdr

here i have some photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/94271811@N03/

i can put up later maby a clip without denoise and hdr [Smile]

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on October 13, 2013, 02:25 AM:

Are you taking two frames one after the other, or running the film through the projector twice?

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 13, 2013, 02:41 AM:

Mattias.... maybe you could explain your process in more detail. You initial post said you were running the film through the projector twice. This would give you two capture files. Are you then layering the two images in your video editor to create a hybrid image?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 13, 2013, 04:00 AM:

Janice Glesser yes that is correct

i run the film through the projector twice

so i have one directory with normal or low exposure about 3500 images like image1.tga image2.tga image3.tga and so on

and i have second directory with high exposure about 3500 images like image1.tga image2.tga image3.tga and so on

then i combine the images together like low exposure image1.tga with high exposure image1.tga and so on i do that with a avisynth script

hehe it take much hard drive space [Razz]

ex a super 8 120m reel is about 32500 images it´s 174gig and two exposure it´s 348gig

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 13, 2013, 01:29 PM:

Interesting Mattias...I'm wondering if a similar result could be accomplished using just one pass. You could then layer two copies of the same images in Premiere or After Effects... one adding a high exposure filter and the other a low filter. Then combine the images using a blending mode (not sure which one would work best). This techniques is done in Photoshop all the time. I've used it to lighten dark video. It could help with hot spots.

[ October 13, 2013, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 13, 2013, 02:24 PM:

yes that maby works

hmm i use this http://strony.aster.pl/paviko/hdragc.htm to get the most out of the normal or low exposure and it works very good

but on does darkest scene it needs little more help from the high exposure image to get all the Details

heh the hdr script i use do little over 10 overlays to combine together low exposure image with high exposure and it´s very slow about 0.80fps it´s faster but i use a other script to align the low exposure and high exposure before i put them together if i do not do that i get ghosting

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 13, 2013, 06:28 PM:

Thanks for the link Mattias...looks like a nice plugin. You've given me lots of ideas to try [Smile]

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on October 13, 2013, 07:21 PM:

I know it is not entirely fair to judge a video transfer without first seeing the screen projected film, but looking at the samples provided I am unimpressed with the grainy images shown.

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 14, 2013, 12:06 PM:

Thomas yes you are right when i denoise it i do some unsharp mask so i get back some grain

i gess i over do it little with the unsharp mask

and i triple the frame count because that was only thing that fix
temporal denoise in fast moving scene after i use select every third frame then i get back to orginal frame rate

it´s just trial and error for me just learning

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on October 14, 2013, 06:32 PM:

Mattias,
My apology, I was reading several threads and went back to reply ...choosing the wrong thread. Actually, I do not find the grain in your scans objectionable, at all.
My remark about grainy images, was meant for the Moviestuff.TV thread, in reference to the Retro 8 samples.
Your scans look to superior to these,..my compliments to you.

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on October 14, 2013, 07:02 PM:

I find if I run two passes with film, I get alignment issues, I instead flash the LEDs twice, once with high brightness and once with low brightness and capture the same frame twice before advancing the film.

Although, with the newer sensors such as the Sony ICX674 I find the sensor has enough dynamic range at 12bits per pixel to capture the full gamut in a single pass without the need for two different exposures.

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 14, 2013, 09:12 PM:

Thomas no problems and thanks [Smile]

Pete that would be great to flash the LEDs twice but i have no idea how to do that :/
best of course is to have better camera [Smile]

i use this led the 6w colour temperature 5500-6000k i have try some other led light to but they did flicker

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-12V-MR16-GU5-3-3-2W-6W-3W-9W- 12W-LED-Spotlight-Light-Bulb-Downlight-/271186262819

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 15, 2013, 02:26 PM:

one more clip but it´s less good i wanted to test how older films convert to digital
i did not convert the color to grayscale so it have old look

here is the link https://vimeo.com/76934533

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 20, 2013, 11:16 AM:

Ernie Zahn i have now upload a compare clip

Vimeo

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 20, 2013, 12:18 PM:

Super transfer Matthias. They are getting better and better. I'm not a avisynth expert...but have used Video Fred's scripts with nice results. I like the results of your transfers a little better in that they still maintain that film-look.

If you could provide a sample of the script(s) you are using (such as for this last comparison transfer) that would be helpful to understand the syntex and the setting you used.

Also...are you doing a frame-by-frame transfer or realtime?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 20, 2013, 01:05 PM:

Thanks [Smile]

this is a modified videofred script here it is

***************************************************************

#SetMemoryMax(1920) #enable if you use MT mode
#SetMTMode(2,4) #enable if you use MT mode
LoadDll("C:\avsplugins\fftw3.dll") #change the path where you have the dll files
LoadDll("C:\avsplugins\mvtools2.dll") #change the path where you have the dll files

a=ImageSource("G:\Reel1\hdrstab\image%d.tga",start=0,end=32428,fps=18).ConvertToYV12().Changefps(54) #i tripple the frame count from 18 to 54 it did help the denoise in fast scenes i use later SelectEvery(3,0) to get back to orginal 18 fps

return denoise(a).SelectEvery(3,0).ConvertToRGB24().imagewriter(file="I:\outputDIRECTORY\image%d.tga",start=0,end=0,type="tga") #i output it as image sequence just play this .avs file with ex media player classic

function denoise(clip movie)
{
block_size=16
block_over=block_size/2
USM_sharp_ness=30 USM_radi_us=3
USM_sharp_ness1 = USM_sharp_ness
USM_sharp_ness2 = USM_sharp_ness+(USM_sharp_ness/2)
USM_sharp_ness3 = USM_sharp_ness*2
USM_radi_us1 = USM_radi_us
USM_radi_us2 = USM_radi_us-1
USM_radi_us3 = USM_radi_us2-1

cleaned=RemoveGrain(movie,2).unsharpmask(USM_sharp_ness1,USM_radi_us1,0).unsharpmask(USM_sharp_ness2,USM_radi_us2,0)
#SetMTMode(5) #enable if you use MT mode
vectors= MVAnalyseMulti(cleaned,refframes=6, pel=2,truemotion=true, blksize=block_size ,blksizev=block_size, overlap=block_over,dct=0,idx=1,search=1,threads=12,prefetch=1)

T=MVDegrainMulti(cleaned,vectors, thSAD=1100, SadMode=0, idx=2,plane=4,threads=12).unsharpmask(USM_sharp_ness3,USM_radi_us3,0)
#SetMTMode(2) #enable if you use MT mode
b2=t.blur(0.9).NonlinUSM(1.2,1.5,1.2,3.5).mgrain3().blur(0.1)

return b2
}

function mgrain3(clip last)
{
blksize_size=8
overlap_size=blksize_size/2
dct=0
tmotion=false
super= last.MSuper(pel=2)
bv1 = MAnalyse(super, isb = true, delta=1,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
fv1 = MAnalyse(super, isb = false, delta=1,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
bv2 = MAnalyse(super, isb = true, delta=2,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
fv2 = MAnalyse(super, isb = false, delta=2,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
bv3 = MAnalyse(super, isb = true, delta=3,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
fv3 = MAnalyse(super, isb = false, delta=3,truemotion=tmotion,blksize=blksize_size,overlap=overlap_size, dct=dct)
l=last.MDegrain3(super, bv1,fv1,bv2,fv2,bv3,fv3,thSAD=650)
return l
}

function NonlinUSM(clip o, float "z", float "pow", float "str", float "rad", float "ldmp")
{
z = default(z, 6.0) # zero point
pow = default(pow, 1.6) # power
str = default(str, 1.0) # strength
rad = default(rad, 9.0) # radius for "gauss"
ldmp= default(ldmp, 0.001) # damping for verysmall differences

g = o.bicubicresize(round(o.width()/rad/4)*4,round(o.height()/rad/4)*4).bicubicresize(o.width(),o.height(),1,0)

mt_lutxy(o,g,"x x y - abs "+string(z)+" / 1 "+string(pow)+" / ^ "+string(z)+" * "+string(str)+
\ " * x y - 2 ^ x y - 2 ^ "+string(ldmp)+" + / * x y - x y - abs 0.001 + / * +",U=2,V=2)

return(last)
}

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on October 20, 2013, 01:19 PM:

Super Mattias...Thnx [Smile]

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on October 23, 2013, 03:42 AM:

i have new compare clip it's about hdr and exposure

Here is the link Vimeo compare exposure

And here i did a little screen capture how it looks when i use the denoise and sharpening script

Denoise and sharpening screen capture

Posted by Stig Lundberg 2 (Member # 2999) on January 16, 2014, 05:04 PM:

Where in Sweden are you situated? I have a clip on out of date K40 with barely no colors that might be saved by your process.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on January 16, 2014, 06:48 PM:

Mattias, nice work. What are you using to do the initial transfer?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on January 17, 2014, 06:04 PM:

Stig Lundberg i live north of sweden near polar circle [Smile]

Bill Brandenstein thanks [Smile]

i use a machine vision camera and a old projector Eumig 810 LUX you can see it here how i do the capture
https://vimeo.com/82866312

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on January 21, 2014, 11:04 AM:

That's some nice engineering there, Mattias. The critical point is the camera and raw image file, but you've been ingenius with the rest of the chain too.

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on January 21, 2014, 06:20 PM:

Thanks [Smile]

soon i post some more clips [Smile]

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on January 27, 2014, 04:25 AM:

Hi got a new TAIWAN & THAILAND 1970s Super 8mm cilp

https://vimeo.com/85107570

i have some before and after denoise and sharpening pictures here

http://flickr.com/photos/94271811@N03

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 27, 2014, 07:54 AM:

Hi Mattias,

Interesting result!

How do you see your technique with other transfer technique such as Tobin, MovieStuff, or Fred's.

Unfortunately your experiment is using 18 fps and amateur films. So it does not reach the max result.

Should you be able to get packed films (which is always 24 fps and no camera shaking) or at least trailers of Hollywood films, we can then compare your technique with professional transfer system. Can you?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on January 27, 2014, 05:11 PM:

Thanks [Smile]

my technique is very slow because i run the film two times thru the projector to get the low and high exposure

i have only cartoon as packed films and i have a super 8 test film

here is a picture of it

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3777/11013222224_0af01ac1e4_o.jpg

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 27, 2014, 07:03 PM:

Yeah, looking at "Thailand and Taiwan" clip, although the quality of the still frames (after denoised and sharpened) are very good but when it is playing, the camera shaking and the 18 fps make us dizzy, so we cannot get the full performance of your technique.

BTW the SMPTE scan you make is around 294 kb/frame. So 1 sec at 24 fps will be around 7MB. This means a 50' film at 24 fps (2.5 minute/150 seconds) is 1 GB ! [Eek!]

Your "Thailand and Taiwan" clip is around 25 minutes. I downloaded at HD quality and get 864 MB. So this is still highly compressed, isn't it?

But should we be able to have a terabytes hard disk and super fast computer, can the resolution still go higher than 294 kb/frame?

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on January 28, 2014, 04:16 PM:

The original SMPTE scan frame is in bmp format and it´s 5.6mb big

but now i capture to tiff format and it does have a lossless compression LZW so it get little smaller between 1.5mb to 3mb files

the "Thailand and Taiwan" clip in image sequence is 28981 frames and 132gig

the "Thailand and Taiwan" clip that i did upload to vimeo is 4.5gig and max i can upload per week to vimeo is 5gig

i did use Megui encoder setting was
very slow
Tuning:Grain so it preserve the grain little better
Quality:17.7
AVC profile:High
AVC level:4.1

but vimeo encode it again so the quality gets worse :/

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on February 03, 2014, 09:18 PM:

Disneyworld Florida 1974 Regular 8mm

https://vimeo.com/85767429

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on February 11, 2014, 09:50 PM:

Here is a old less good quality Regular 8mm clip it´s from 1939

https://vimeo.com/86430617

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on February 13, 2014, 07:22 PM:

This is just scary good. I can't say I've seen DIY look better, nor would I expect to.

Posted by Mattias Norberg (Member # 3177) on February 14, 2014, 12:47 AM:

Thanks [Smile]

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