8mm Forum: Dates, etc, relating to early Hammer 8mm releases

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Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 27, 2013, 09:39 AM:

I'm contributing to an article that Phil Sheard is writing on Hammer releases, that will appear in the next edition of 'Film Collector'. I have good knowledge of Hammer films released after I started collecting in the early 1980s, but if anyone can confidenly answer any of the following specific questions about earlier releases, I'd very grateful for their help:

a) Approximately when did Derann release the 'Evil of Frankenstein' Std 8 feature?
b) Approximately when did the Americom releases of the 'Curse of Frankenstein' and 'Horror of Dracula' - with the accompanying sound on disks - first appear?
c) When did Derann start releasing their series of Super 8 400' and 4 x 400' digests of Hammer films, such as 'Scars of Dracula', 'The Devil Rides Out' etc?
d) I'm sure that the 'Scars of Dracula' Super 8 4 x 400' version was released in b/w as well as colour. Can anyone confirm if the 400' was also released in b/w? I think the Derann 4 x 400' of 'Countess Dracula' may have also been available in b/w as well as colour, so if anyone can confirm b/w versions of this or any other Derann b/w release of a colour Hammer film, that would be helpful.
e) Approximately when did Walton release their versions of 'Twins of Evil' and 'Vampire Circus'?
f) Approximately when did Ken start releasing their 200' silent editions of 'The Revenge of Frankenstein', 'Frankenstein Must Be Destroyed', 'Curse of the Mummy's Tomb', 'Taste the Blood of Dracula', 'One Million Years BC', 'When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth' and 'Moon Vero Two'?
g) 'The Revenge of Frankenstein' and 'Curse of the Mummy's Tomb' were also released by Ken as 200' Super 8 colour silent editions, but a collector once told me that he had sound versions without the usual subtitles of these, which is surprising as there seems to be no official evidence of sound releases other than in Germany. Has anyone come across sound copies of these?
h) Regarding the Ken 200' silent releases, I have compared the Std 8 and Super 8 versions of 'Moon Zero Two' and found that the Std 8 version - as is often the case with such 200' releases - is a bit longer. Does anyone know if that applies to Std 8 versions of any of the other releases? I'm not sure if they were all released on Std 8, so it would be useful to know any that definitely were on Std 8, and whether 'Revenge of Frankenstein' and/or 'Curse of the Mummy's Tomb' were also released as colour Std 8 versions.

The above questions don't cover all the potential content of the article, so please don't think that we will (e.g.) overlook the later full length versions of films such as 'Scars of Dracula' and 'Vampire Circus', as such releases will be included. But if you think of anything so rare that it's even harder to find than the French extracts from 'Frankenstein and the Monster from Hell', please mention it in case we don't know about it!

Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on November 27, 2013, 01:38 PM:

I can help with the timelines etc [Smile]

Watch this space

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 27, 2013, 03:48 PM:

Hi Mark - thanks for offering to help but I'd better flag up that I've just seen a PM from a forum member who has kindly responded with the very detailed information below. I'll check if he's happy to be credited but in the meantime I'll post the information to avoid any duplicated effort:
a) 1969
b) 1964 to tie-in with the Seven Arts double bill in the States
c) Scars of Dracula end of 1976
d) Countess Dracula 400 released in b/w following withdrawal of colour version
e) 1976
f) Revenge of Frankenstein (Columbia/Capitol) 1964
Curse of the Mummy's Tomb (Columbia/Capitol) 1965
Taste the Blood of Dracula/Frankenstein Must Be Destroyed/When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth/Moon Zero Two (Warner/Ken) 1972
h) Frankenstein M B Destroyed/Moon Zero Two/Taste Blood Dracula/When Dinosaurs Ruled all definitely available on Std 8

Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on November 27, 2013, 04:31 PM:

Hi Adrian

Well that saved me a few hours of going thru back copies of Movie Maker etc 😊

I can elaborate on a few points too.

c) The Devil Rides Out was released in 1976 too.

d) Scars of Dracula was released as a Colour 400ft digest only,

g) Revenge & Curse were released as B/W & Colour silent versions only.

h) Revenge & Curse were only released on Super 8

Probably one of the rarest and early Hammer release's by Derann was Spaceways starring Howard Duff in 1973 as a 4 x 400ft b/w sound feature only,

There was also a long trailer reel for The Legend of the 7 Golden Vampires released in the US which is ultra rare these days,haven't a clue who released it though??

I hope this additional info is of help

Regards Mark W

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 27, 2013, 10:48 PM:

Hi Mark.
Many thanks, that's also very useful. 'Spaceways' is an entirely new one that wasn't on our list, so that's good to know. From the same Hammer era, Phil has mentioned a 4 x 400' Std 8 release of 'Four Sided Triangle', which was news to me. I'm very intereted to learn of the 'Seven Golden Vampires' trailer because Phil astonished me by referring to a rare US feature release of this film, so I expect the trailer is from the same (unknown) source. When you say a "long trailer reel", do you mean it had one trailer but was above average length?

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 28, 2013, 05:28 AM:

Didn't Derann release a "Dick Barton" on standard 8, not sure which one. I have a trailer (standard 8) to one I'll check the title. And did PC49 get a release?

And of course the three Quatermass films all on super 8 as 4x400ft plus 400ft. Experiment was also 400ft silent in an old Mountain catalogue. It was also complete I think in standard 8.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on November 28, 2013, 06:58 AM:

Curse on reg 8 snd is a good print

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 28, 2013, 07:31 AM:

David - You're right about a Dick Barton feature and trailer on Std although I can't recall offhand which of the Barton films it was. I'm not sure about PC 49 but Phil's article is on the horror/fantasy releases so not every Hammer will be included. Incidentally, regarding the non-fantasy films, I have a 4 x 400' Super 8 print of 'Women Without Men', which seem rare, and of course there's the 400' in scope and flat of 'The Lady Vanishes'.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 28, 2013, 03:20 PM:

Was "The Lady Vanishes" the last Hammer Film? You could include that in the horror section. Really bad casting in the two leads.

I was surprised that "The Brides Of Dracula" was never released by Derann, even in a 'white box special'. I remember talking to Derek Simmonds about Hammer Films and that was one he wanted to get.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 28, 2013, 07:22 PM:

David - 'The Lady Vanishes' was the last Hammer film, apart from the 1980s TV material, until the 'new' Hammer released 'Let Me In' in 2010. I'd agree that the leads are a weakness, although in every other respect I think it actually beats the Hitchcock version - a view that quite a few people seem to share.

In fact in the article, I believe Phil will give readers an insight into how close we came to seeing a 'Brides' feature.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on November 29, 2013, 04:41 PM:

Totally agree with your comments, with two better leads this would have been a very good film.

With Angela Lansbury, Herbert Lom, Gerald Harper and Arthur Lowe (Charters) and Ian Carmichael Caldicott they made it far better. And the latter two were well cast too.

Of the Hammers Horrors I always enjoy their Dracula's, but only a couple of the Frankenstein's do I enjoy. The first was very good, both Lee & Cushing were perfect cast. Most of their output was good to watch, sit back and enjoy.

Of all the production studios I have quite a few from Hammer, you get the feeling from watching them that they enjoyed making them. They were a bit of a family type when you read some of the books about them.

And they are good to watch of course.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 29, 2013, 05:08 PM:

Has there ever been a decent Super 8 release of Evil of Frankenstein ?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on November 30, 2013, 08:53 PM:

Michael - No, not on Super 8 (there was the Std 8 b/w release).

David - Hammer knew that Arthur Lowe and Ian Carmichael made a very appealing Charters and Caldicott, and there was talk of a spin-off TV series featuring them. But the company slid into bankruptancy at the time that the film was released, so even if it had been a hit, I expectg the idea was doomed.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 01, 2013, 12:40 PM:

Thanks, Adrian. Another collector tells me that, in addition to the B&W print, Derann did, in fact, also have a colour Std 8 print for rental only. I hadn't been aware of this and I wonder if any of these colour prints survive?

Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on December 01, 2013, 03:15 PM:

Yes that is correct Mike I think there were only 2 or 3 prints struck for rental only.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 01, 2013, 04:30 PM:

Do any still exist, Mark?

Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on December 01, 2013, 04:33 PM:

I vaguely recall a colour standard 8mm turning up on eBay a few years ago so there may still be hope,I think the print was letter boxed too.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 01, 2013, 05:04 PM:

Thanks, Mark [Smile]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 01, 2013, 07:00 PM:

Phil thinks there were 4 colour prints although I once had a conversation with Derek about them in which I think he said there were 6. I owned one for a while in the 1980s but sold it. That may sound shocking in view of the rarity, but I have never seen a print with such 'perfect' scratches - it was as if people who had hired it has carefully ensured that the mass of lines covered every single part of the frame! There was also some lost footage at the star of a reel and it was a soft print. The only good point was nice colour. The master must have been a 16mm US TV print as it included the extra scenes shot for US TV screenings. It wasn't letterboxed. Derann sold the trailer in Std 8 colour, though, so that's easier to find.

Posted by Paul Dann (Member # 2583) on December 02, 2013, 03:32 PM:

Evil of Frankenstein would have been part of the MCA package acquired by Derann in 1969 which also included Psycho (recently screened by ITV for the first time on Easter Monday 1968 I believe) and Universal's The Invisible Man and Phantom of the Opera.
The print would probably have been borrowed from Sound Film Services of Merton Park who were the exclusive distributors of the MCA 16mm catalogue in the UK
A colour print was available from Derann for £4.10s (£4.50) hire for 7 days

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 09, 2013, 04:01 PM:

I still have a few loose ends regarding Hammer releases, so if anyone can comment on any of the following, I'd once again be very grateful. You would be contributing to what I'm convinced will be the most comprehensive listing ever of Hammer releases!
a) I know there was a 50' Americom 'Curse of Frankenstein' so I expect there was also a 50' 'Dracula'. Can anyone confirm this. Does anyone know if the 50' versions were only Std 8?
b) I believe the 200' Anericom releases ('Curse' and 'Dracula') were available in colour, on Std/Super 8 as well as b/w. I know there are rare sound versions with sound on stripe but does anyone know if these were both Std and Super and both b/w and col?
c) Can anyone confirm that 'Four Sided Triangle' was a Std (only?) feature? If so, was it full length or 4 x 400'? If it exists, it was presumably Derann?
d) Phil thinks 'Phantom of the Opera' was released full length in b/w Std 8 as well as b/w Super 8. Can anyone confirm the Std 8 release and if so, was there also a Std 8 400' version?
e) Phil also thinks there were Std 8 versiona of the Derann features 'Quatermass 2' and 'X the Unknown' but I've never heard of them. Can anyone confirm if they exist and if so were they full length or 4 x 400?
f) Has anyone ever come across Super 8 trailers to 'Rasputin the Mad Monk' and/or 'Plague of the Zombies'? If so, were they on Thunderbird reels?
g) Does anyone know of any other Hammer trailers, other than 'Horror of Dracula' and 'House of Fright' (i.e. 'Two Faces of Dr Jekyll') that were specifially released on Thunderbird trailer reels and have not been released by anyone else? This only applies to Thunderbird releases, and not releases by LA Films and others, as we are aware of those.
h) Can anyone remind me which of the Dick Barton films was released as a Std 8 4 x 400' and trailer?

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on December 12, 2013, 11:22 AM:

Wasn't Mystery of the Mary Celeste an early Hammer Film? It was available from Blackhawk. Also Movie Magazine #2 The House of Horror, available, I believe, from Perry's was a compilation film of various scenes from Hammer Films.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 12, 2013, 12:02 PM:

The Mystery of the Marie Celeste Hired this from D G Hurst The Hammer reel was released by Derann.

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on December 12, 2013, 12:09 PM:

It was by Blackhawk as well. I have the Blackhawk catalog that lists it. I suspect that this title probably fell into public domain. Good little film.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 12, 2013, 03:40 PM:

David's referring to 'Movie Magazine No.2' being a Derann release - 'Mystery of the Mary Celeste' was only released by Blackhawk, on 16mm as well as Super 8. It was from Hammer's brief era of production in the 1930s. The Blackhawk releases are the full USA cut of the film, but there's a significantly longer British version that I believe is still unavailable in any form.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 13, 2013, 02:52 AM:

Sorry about that slightly misleading post. D.J. Hurst was a film library who had a very good selection of titles. I hired "Mystery of the Mary Celeste" from him. Not sure who did the print though. It was in a few catalogues at the time.

He of course had all the 'Hammer' releases available. When he started to close his library due to ill health I bought loads of films.

The "Hammer Movie Magazine No2" was from Derann 400ft.

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on December 13, 2013, 04:04 AM:

I am fortunate to have copies of both Mystery of the Mary Celeste and Spaceways on 8mm. Are there any other known 8mm prints of these older, non fantasy, Hammer Films?

I know The Four Sided Triangle was mentioned but not confirmed.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 14, 2013, 10:30 PM:

Four Sided Triangle, if it was released, certainly could be classified as fantasy. The only Hammer film that's earlier than 'Women Without Men' (1957) that may have no fantasy elements is the Dick Barton release on Std 8. But I say "may have" because it could be the Barton film featuring a madman with a death ray, which would arguably make it fantasy! It's unfortunate that no one has been able to identify which Barton film it is, especially as I have the Std 8 trailer to it somewhere, and I've wasted hours searching for it!

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 15, 2013, 06:14 AM:

I've found my standard 8 trailer for the Dick Barton film.
It's "Dick Barton Strikes Back"

Had to dig down deep to find it, and cheat I have no standard 8 projector at the moment. At least you can just view a frame on a super editor.

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on December 15, 2013, 08:36 AM:

I do remember back several years ago an ad in a publication of someone trying to sell an 8mm feature length copy of Vampire Lovers. This was the only time I have seen any mention of this film on this format. Maybe someone else could confirm if this ever existed.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 15, 2013, 09:25 AM:

I've never heard of a 'Vampire Lovers' feature, although I believe someone on the Forum mentioned getting an Italian Super 8 edited version (2 x 400' or 3 x 400') not so long ago.

But there certainly are both feature length and edited versions of various Hammer films on Super 8, pirated in small quantities. E.g. I used to own 'Horror of Dracula' (full length US version) before the Derann release and it was clearly filmed off a screen in 50 foot lengths! The sync was OK but not perfect. It was just about watchable and must have seen better in pre-video days. I heard of a 4 x 400' of 'Taste the Blood of Dracula' that I believe was produced in the same way. I don't think these were one offs as I once saw a list offering various films that could not be legal releases.

Posted by Luis Caramelo (Member # 2430) on December 16, 2013, 07:14 AM:

hi!fellas,i do my self got the :vampire circus,great print from derann,full lenght 3x600ft,released by hammer...

regards;
luis caramelo

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 16, 2013, 11:27 AM:

William Powell advert from MM Oct 1970 "The Phantom Of The Opera" Herbert Lom Hammer in both super & standard 8 10 reels Cost £35 Black/White

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on December 16, 2013, 03:52 PM:

Adrian, I'm sure you are aware of Moon Zero Two having been released by Ken Films 200 ft silent. Fun little digest. Just don't want to leave any stone unturned. Look forward to your article.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 16, 2013, 09:17 PM:

Guy - I do, but thanks for mentioning it - you can't be too careful! 'Moon Zero Two' 8mm b/w silent has the distinction of being the only home viewing version of the film for decades! I temporarily had both the Std 8 and Super 8 versions, and just kept the Std 8 because it's longer.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on December 17, 2013, 07:44 PM:

Adrian,

Sorry to come to this thread so late.

The first Columbia catalog I have that lists "Curse of the Mummy's Tomb" is from 1971. I don't have a 1970 catalog, but that title does not appear in the 1966, 68 or 69 editions.

I doubt if Columbia ever released sound versions of "Revenge of Frankenstein" or "Curse/Mummy's Tomb", or at least not with the same edit as the silent versions. Scenes are started/ended in mid-sentence and are used for the way they look rather than any dialog that was being spoken, especially with "Curse". I've seen sound striped copies of these, but these were done by collectors.

Here's a relevant section of an Americom catalog that should help you out:

The last column lists Standard 8mm sound striped prints of "Snow White & The Three Stooges", "Curse of Frankenstein" & "Horror of Dracula" as being available in both B&W and color.

Doug

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 17, 2013, 08:49 PM:

Many thanks, Doug. You have confirmed that the 'Birth of Frankenstein' extract was b/w only but also available in 50'. I was assuming that the striped sound versions were Std and Super 8 but it looks like they were Std only.

Regarding the 'Revenge of Frankenstein' 200', I once came across and bought a German release with sound with similar box artwork, but unfortunately the sound and print were not very good so I didn't keep it long enough to make any comparison with the US release.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on December 21, 2013, 11:38 AM:

Adrian can you please check your PMs. Thank you.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 27, 2013, 05:28 AM:

Adrian do you me to upload some scans of some of Derann, Powell adverts from the film mags?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on December 27, 2013, 09:04 AM:

David - many thanks for the offer but I know Phil is short of space with regard to fitting in all he already has in the way of visual content. But I'll keep your offfer in mind if there's ever another version published somewhere.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on January 08, 2014, 03:00 PM:

The 'Dick Barton' feature is 'Dick Barton Secret Agent' Derann ad from Movie Maker March 1972.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on January 08, 2014, 04:03 PM:

Hi David - thanks for the info but I believe 'Film Collector' has now been printed, so nothing new can be included. In fact shortly before I finished working on it, I was assured that both DICK BARTON SPECIAL AGENT and DICK BARTON STRIKES BACK were released as Std 8 features, so they are both in the list.

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