8mm Forum: EDITING ADVICE: Sound and picture with not quite the equip I'm used to!

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Posted by Roger Faires (Member # 4147) on February 18, 2014, 10:49 AM:

Bear with this prologue please!

I was in film school for about 10 min (exaggeration) back in the 80's and I made a super 8 film by shooting super 8 silent film and then doing an A, B, C and D roll edit on a bench with the proper rewinds and a 4 gang sync block and great viewer. A and B were picture and C and D were super 8 full coat. I did not shoot sync dialog. Our instructions were to make a film with "no dialogue exposition". Tell the story with visuals. An idea I still like very much.

OK, jumping to now: I want to make a film with similar restrictions now.

I am getting a Super 8 Tape deck. I already found some Full Coat. But, if I try to replicate the process I did in the 80's with out the editing bench set up I used - how would I do that by just using a Goko 8008.

Can anyone give me a simple and workable answer?
PS, the last super 8 film I made was in 1985. But I'm Back!!

Thanks!

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 18, 2014, 09:20 PM:

Roger,

Welcome to the 8mm Forum!

I'm not sure how to approach this....I assume you'll be giving up the A-B roll method since you're using the motorized RM-8008 without a gang-sync block. The Goko is not a crystal sync machine so the picture and audio will drift. What are you using for splicing?

Now if you can get a hold of the Steenbeck ST-822 8mm edit table.....

Doug

Posted by Roger Faires (Member # 4147) on February 19, 2014, 10:19 AM:

Hey Doug -

Thanks for getting back to me.

Oh what i'd give for a Steenbeck 6 plate (8 plate?) my editing troubles would never occur. Perhaps I'll be luck enough to find one that I can afford (that still works!).

I don't need perfect sync since I'm not doing dialog but I would like general synch because I'll be using music and narration transferred onto the full coat using super 8 recorder.

If I can still find someone to put a mag-stripe on the final cut film element can I then use the Goko 8008 and the Super 8 Recorder to put the soundtrack on the film itself?

In '85 I took my film to Rupert Taylor in the Bay Area (now deceased) to have a mag stripe added and then I took all elements to Dennis Dugan (now deceased) in San Francisco to do the final mix of sound onto the film's mag stripe. He used a Goko. The results were ok albeit a little "noisy". I can't remember if he was using a 8008 or something else but I know it was a Goko product.

Or am I just crazy approaching it this way? What do people do now if they want to make the most analog super 8 film possible?

Roger

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on February 19, 2014, 01:33 PM:

Hi Roger-

I have never gone to film school, but I've done films like what you describe. The last one I did was about 3 years ago (and I'm itching to do one again [Wink]

).

My method is quite primitive, but with patience, produces great results!

First, I shoot the film, and use a standard cassette tape deck to record dialog, and some ambient sounds (when dialog is needed).

After the film is processed, I check the prints and send to be sound striped.

Next, I edit the film using a small projector, a tape splicer, and a magnifying glass (yes, really).

And, finally, I transfer/record the sound from the cassette to the film. I also add music, and sometimes high-quality sound effects (for things like storms or beaches, etc.)

Note: It really helps to have a projector that mix and fade the sound, etc. I use a Sankyo st800 for this.

It takes forever, but at the end of the day, the results are fantastic, and my viewing audience NEVER suspects the pain I had to go through to produce the short ten minute film!

Well, thats my method. Please don't judge me, I couldn't afford film school [Cool]

.

James

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on February 19, 2014, 01:53 PM:

I used to do the same as James described. Now IF your enjoyment is "process-oriented" rather than final result-oriented, that is to say if you feel it more rewarding when it comes to fidget with timings, cables, plugs, forward-stop-reverse-go operations and all that comes with that, I think you can stick to what he suggested. But if what you really are after is enjoy the completed project, then in my opinion there's nothing better than editing the soundtrack (just that!) on an NLE system, provided you have access to a quartz-sync projector to capture the images on the system and transfer the final mix onto the magstripe. The results are really stunning and "professional" with perfect transitions, perfect sound mix, multiple tracks (virtually endless) and the possibility to correct any afterthoughts without stress on film or projector. Just the way to go in the 21st century.... Please do not get me wrong: I still enjoy using scissors and cement to edit the "pix". But soundesign can be really difficult at times especially if you are working on a challenging project.

Posted by Roger Faires (Member # 4147) on February 19, 2014, 05:38 PM:

Hello and Come Stai - James and Maurizio!

Thanks for weighing in on this too.
Just a laughing aside - my film school was 3 or 4 weeks at Sacramento State University until I realized I couldn't afford to miss anymore shifts at work so I had to leave before the official start of our assignment. Then, not wanting to be prevented from making a film by the pesky reality of not being in film school I cozied up to the AV guy there (or lied - I can't remember) and borrowed equipment and snuck into the classroom where the editing equip was in the evening. I know, I know . . not very classy, in fact lowbrow . . but there you have it.

OK, contemplating all three of your replies. I know what you mean about sound Maurizio. Getting sound right with the quality and complexity is almost hard enough in the digital world let alone the limitations of the tiny mag stripes and splicing and mixing. Like I said, my last film is noisy and a little uneven to say the least.

I do have a very good Elmo ST 1200 HD projector so recording sound onto that should be about as good as projector based recording can be.

But, none of you laughed or scoffed when I posted about adding mag stripes to the film so obviously someone out there is still doing that. Who does it and who does it well? The last one I had done was in the mid 80's and the man who did it was already at least 78 or 80 himself. It looked a little uneven on the film stock.

Anyway, I think I will try the first one back using all analog approach and if that comes out bad I will try the NLE for sound approach.

Last question: Is the Goko 8008 for editing/viewing and an Agfa F8s for splicing a good combo for that end of things? Would the Goko be better for adding sound then the Elmo ST1200 projector?

Thanks and all the best you guys and we'll talk soon! So to speak.
Roger

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on February 20, 2014, 07:51 AM:

Come sto??? Molto bene, grazie!

And of course we didn't scoff at your query on striping - how could we? This forum is based on questions which could be easily be regarded as "off-center" (to say the least) elsewhere. PLUS... It actually is still possible to mag stripe a film at least in Europe and of course there must be people more aknowedgeable than me in the USA to address you right locally. I can do it but never offered it for others: striping is a very delicate operation and you don't want to have it wrong on someone else's film which means to ruin it beyond mending...
The ST 1200 is an excellent machine and your splicer should yeld beautiful results. Theoretically the Goko has excellent REC/PB capabilities but in fact it is a little too sensitive to splices and not very even speedwise which is detrimental to sound quality. So I'd reccomend the Elmo.

Best of luck with your passion!!!

Posted by Roger Faires (Member # 4147) on February 20, 2014, 09:27 PM:

Thanks Maurizio! All you guys are champs. Good luck to all of us in keeping this amazing film thing alive!

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