8mm Forum: [Video] Core-Recore film without a split reel using "Winbert's Method"

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 23, 2014, 07:34 PM:

Dear all,

It has been a hot discussion for these last two weeks regarding how to core-recore super 8mm film without a split reel.

I then tried myself and making my own video so you can see that it is possible to do this as long as you have those devices mentioned in the video.

This method is definitely different with the method that Osi was explaining, therefore allow me to call this method as "Winbert's method" [Wink]

It is my own "Stenbeck" [Big Grin]

Don't be panic with other devices seen on the video, they are my DJ gears, not film related at all.

Core/Recore films using Winbert method

Please fell free to ask or give comments.

Posted by Paul Spinks (Member # 573) on February 23, 2014, 08:25 PM:

Very impressive.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on February 23, 2014, 09:01 PM:

Excellent Winbert!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 23, 2014, 10:38 PM:

Interesting [Wink]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 24, 2014, 12:05 AM:

Yep looks great Winbert. Sadly I do not have any DJ gear so I'm still gonna need to see Osi's method, but good to know there are other options for folks... [Smile]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 24, 2014, 02:49 AM:

Thanks guys,

No Dino you don't need to own DJ gears for doing this. Just buy 2 cheap turntables from thrifts store it will do the job.

The idea to put R8mm adapter is to make the super 8mm reel hole narrowed so it will fit good to the center of turntable.

The cost of a 50' reel is almost nothing.

cheers,

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 24, 2014, 08:02 AM:

Winbert,

Fascinating! If only you could core films and lay down beats at the same time.....

Doug

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 24, 2014, 08:14 AM:

If this was Jan Bisterized a little (or maybe a lot...) it could be the very first Super-8 platter system!

Posted by Mark Williams (Member # 794) on February 24, 2014, 12:07 PM:

Amazing!!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 24, 2014, 12:44 PM:

Wish I could get around to getting that video done as quickly as you have done this! Actually, when I get this done, it won't just be how I core films but also showing off my collection.

Good job Winbert!

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 24, 2014, 01:27 PM:

Innovative.
Well done.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on February 24, 2014, 04:10 PM:

Cool! 8mm film playing at 45RPM!

There are two issues here that may or may not be repeatable for others:
- using the 50' reel isn't a true core, and getting a spindle adapter for what Dino has pictured at the top of this thread would be necessary.
- the one turntable I have access to in my life has NO torque. It could do this with zero pressure, and the result would NOT be tight. Winbert, that's a belt drive rig, I presume? Point being, all turntables are not equal in this regard, so buyer beware.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 24, 2014, 06:55 PM:

Hi Bill, thanks for the comment.

Regarding

quote:

- using the 50' reel isn't a true core,

Yes, this is just a quick, easy and cheap solution to Dino's problem for his films on core now.

However, if we cut a half side of the 50' reel (it is an easy work), and when film has been spooled to the 50' reel, we can later flip-flap the base (either a used LP or a turntable slip mat) and getting the film out of the reel. So it is no longer on 50' reel.

quote:
and getting a spindle adapter for what Dino has pictured at the top of this thread would be necessary.

Where is that?

quote:
the one turntable I have access to in my life has NO torque. It could do this with zero pressure, and the result would NOT be tight. Winbert, that's a belt drive rig, I presume?

They are Technics SL-1200MK2. Not a belt driven turntable.

This turntable is not cheap though, just like our ST-1200 (coincidentally, both share the same series numbers [Wink]

). However, I believe a cheap direct drive motor turntable can be bought from a thrift store for $20.

cheers,

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on February 26, 2014, 07:52 AM:

Very impressive Winbert! It made me think of our friends Wallace and Grommit!
Following up from Bill, the set-up would be quite perfect if there was a way to control the tension of the turntable that feeds the film. When I used to make up and break down 35mm prints for a show in the film society that I was involved with, setting the tension on the rewind arm that fed the film, was really crucial in getting the film on core tight enough to be able to handle it, but also not too tight (because that could cause marks on the film). Securing the film on the core with masking tape creates a knot in my belly. Tightening the film on the core by puling it tight makes me even more nervous.... But I think if you can make your set-up a permanent one, you could possibly get it right without any of the above tricks.

>

Dear Osi,

quote:
Wish I could get around to getting that video done as quickly as you have done this! Actually, when I get this done, it won't just be how I core films but also showing off my collection.

it would be really interesting to see your collection, but I don't think that is a priority. However, many of us are very keen to see your set-up for putting films on core. It sounds ike it is even more simple then Winbert's method. You don't have to put a whole feature on cores, just one 600' reel would do nicely.
I counted 18 posts from you since you said that you would do this, so it can't be the case that you don't have any time to spare. I think it would be really good if this topic could be closed and we all move on!
And most importantly, several other collectors would really benefit from learning your trick.

- Rob

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on February 26, 2014, 08:31 AM:

The secret in tightly making off a 2000' 35mm film on a hand rewind is to have the feed spindle's screw tension fairly tight, and to hold the film's edge with the forefinger of your left hand as it progresses from its start, on its core, to the film's end.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 26, 2014, 05:00 PM:

quote:
the set-up would be quite perfect if there was a way to control the tension of the turntable that feeds the film. When I used to make up and break down 35mm prints for a show in the film society that I was involved with, setting the tension on the rewind arm that fed the film, was really crucial in getting the film on core tight enough to be able to handle it, but also not too tight (because that could cause marks on the film). Securing the film on the core with masking tape creates a knot in my belly. Tightening the film on the core by puling it tight makes me even more nervous.... But I think if you can make your set-up a permanent one, you could possibly get it right without any of the above tricks.

Thanks for the comments Rob. But I am more a collector without knowing the terminology you are writing. This can be due to a language barrier too due I am not a native English speaker.

Can you tell me if we are rewinding film on a projector will the problem you have mentioned above happen too? Because I don't see any different betwen rewinding on a projector or in my "steenbeck".

Please note that 45RPM is much slower then a spinning in a projector rewinder. Beside the Technics SL 1200 is a quartz turntable so it has a constant speed for every turn. What I see from these features is equal spool making the film is tight enough without need to pull the film. I was in purpose to throw the film on core that hard to show how tight it was. Beside you can also see that the fim was round enough not an egg shape proving it was in good spool. When the video shows I was pulling the film, it was not meant to tight the film but to show that there was no enough space for film getting loose. That was a rubbish film so I was dare to pull the film like that. Should it be my precious collection, I won't do that.

If it is not masking tape what people use to tie the film on core?

Btw guys, this video was made not to answer Osi's thread. So he still has the obligation to proove his words. Osi get your camera and do what I have done.

But please do not continue to debate regarding Osi's method here but instead write in his thread.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 27, 2014, 02:15 AM:

If its like 35mm you wont need masking tape at all...just loop it round your core just once by hand, and pull it tight with your spare hand, while using your other "your finger" to stop it from spinning on the core [Cool]

....its real easy to do.

Generally I would keep masking tape well away from film altogether, as there is always the risk of some residue from the masking tape adhesive getting on the film.

Graham.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 27, 2014, 03:50 AM:

Graham, it is fully understand if you are talking 35mm since it has wider surface hence more stable. But with 8mm width film can be easily fall apart especially if it is 1200' high. Am I right?

As for the masking tape, I think that is the reason it is used for masking because it doesn't leave residue. At least that what I see with "3M" brand I was using. Should other brand leave residue it would be on the edge side, right? Will notgive any impact to the picture. Anyway just buy "3M" [Wink]

Cheers,

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 27, 2014, 12:26 PM:

Winbert...

Just a thought with Super 8, If you are putting the film on cores, then why not just cut up some bits cardboard to place on either side of the film to support it....a bit like making a sandwich, but with the film on the middle then wrap it up with masking tape, that way its safe.

Graham.

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on February 27, 2014, 12:49 PM:

Winbert, how do you deal with the static electricity? Looking at the film, whatever kind of mat you use the film may be charged with static and I don't think that this may be fiendly with the magnetic track [Smile]

In any case, I wish I had another turntable (I already have a SL-1300 [Big Grin]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 01, 2014, 02:42 AM:

Fabrizio, the electric static is too small to erase the soundtrack on magnetic track.

Of course you must have been aware that printed picture will not be effected with the electric static, no matter how strong it is, right?

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on March 01, 2014, 03:25 PM:

I don't know how electric static may affect the developed picture, apart from attractng dust onto the film.
As far as I read, it may affect raw film stock when you wind them, as it may create sparkles in total darkness, thus impressing the film.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on March 01, 2014, 04:48 PM:

Yes, I was going to say the static electricty would be a dust magnet.

[ March 10, 2014, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Bill Phelps ]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 10, 2014, 11:44 PM:

quote:
I don't know how electric static may affect the developed picture, apart from attractng dust onto the film.

Electric static will not effect the developed picture. As for attracting dust, some film cleaner has anti-static properties. So that should not be a problem, I guess. More over, the electric static from the Turntable is also too small (plus there is a slip mat there before the platter).

I wrote this in the other forum that super 8mm film collecting is (an almost) gone hobby. We have to use our creativity to reach the result, not only relying on the available tools.

For those who live in big countries must be lucky with abundant sources of film related things, but I live in Indonesia, a developing country with limited sources. If I only think about a split reel (and only a split reel) to wrap film outside the reel, I will never reach that.

Another example, I know splicing film is best to use perforated tape + a splicer or film cement. You know what I am using here... "super glue"!

For me is the final result, not what tools you are using!

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on March 11, 2014, 05:49 PM:

Couldn't I wreck my turntable doing this? After all, it's not designed to spin anything heavier than an album.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 11, 2014, 08:28 PM:

quote:
Couldn't I wreck my turntable doing this?

Brad, to be honest, the answer is I don't know. It is pretty much depend on what turntables are used.

quote:
After all, it's not designed to spin anything heavier than an album.

I am not going to give this fact for defending my method. But the weight of one album is 180 gram - 200 gram. Since long time a go, it is not unusual a turntable can stack to 5-7 vinyls (with disc changer).

A 800' with plastic reel is about 600 -700 grams, so I guess it is still OK.

Again, this is a DIY method, do with your own risk. As I said earlier, just use a cheap turntable (direct drive, not the belt driven ones) that you can get from thrift store which probably is around $20. Find those do not have needle and cartridge (we are not going to use them anyway), so it will be even much cheaper.

cheers,

Posted by Paul Spinks (Member # 573) on March 12, 2014, 05:51 AM:

Hi Winbert,

an old friend of mine used to do race nights at clubs when all the races were on 16mm film and he used Elf projectors as he found them to be the most reliable. He always used super glue to splice his prints and found it to be the best way to do it in his opinion. I have always used tape myself but I have always thought that I might give it a go sometime. Knowing my luck I will probably glue my fingers together.

Paul.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on March 17, 2014, 07:31 AM:

Here is a method I just did last night.

Buy a sheet of foam poster board for 1.00

Trace a reel on board.

Cut out 2 pieces. make hole in center.

Place 1 on spindle.

Attach film end in slot where spindle lock is. Or very small piece of tape.

Start by hand to hold end in.

Place second piece of board over first.

Start rewind. Hold foam board with fingers.

When done rewinding tape in four places. Done!

Great way to ship film.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 17, 2014, 08:36 PM:

The ingenuity on this forum never ceases to amaze me [Smile]

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on March 17, 2014, 08:45 PM:

It is kind of amazing at times. We have a lot of thinkers here. You included. I just bought a large nail clipper!

PatD [Wink]

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