8mm Forum: Coverting S8mm to Digital query, Halo effect

This is topic Coverting S8mm to Digital query, Halo effect in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009138

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on April 26, 2014, 10:41 PM:

Hi all, I have been transferring old family Super 8mm films to Digital, while I am happy overall with result, be it using my Panasoc HD digital Camera or a CCD camera Video camera, which I cannot tell much difference with using either of them and using Adobe Prem Elements 12 to edit them, one issue stil bugs me and maybe it is something one cannot avoid, the occasional strobing effect that causes a slight double image on objects especially people when filmed in bright light and wearing bright clothing for example, I call it a halo effect.

I tried using lesser Watt bulb on my Sankyo 600 Projecter 75 instead of 100W altering white balance and Iris on cameras.

Even in Adobe PE the white balance tool, sharpen effect doesn't help, am I missing something here? Or maybe after perfection which one cannot get.

Thanks

Phil

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 27, 2014, 03:54 AM:

It's a problem arising from the fact the projector's shutter is not in sync with the videocamera's pick-up element (regardless it's CCD, MOS or else). If you have NTSC, the only way to minimize and almost eliminate it is to speed up the projector to 20 fps; with the help of its 3-blade shutter, you will get a resulting speed of 60 frames which is compatible with your videocamera's scanning time of 1/60 of a sec. Of course the action in your footage might seem a little too fast, in which case you can slow it down during post (Premiere has wonderful facilities for this).

As an alternative to tweaking the projector's innards, if your videocamera allows fine tuning of its shutter's speed, you can try and optimize it for the present projector's speed which should be around (18x3) 1/54 of a second. This will probably not solve the problem 100% but certainly will drastically reduce it, and you will get this strobe/blended frames only very occasionally but this is down to the fact the projector is not quartz-controlled.

Hope this helps.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on April 27, 2014, 03:08 PM:

If your camcorder will take external filters...try using ND filters to reduce exposure of whites.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 27, 2014, 04:26 PM:

Janice, your suggestion will also reduce the darker areas of the image: the gamut will remain the same. This is not a problem of exposure latitude IMHO...

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on April 27, 2014, 04:43 PM:

I always use an ND filter and it greatly improves the hotspots and halos. I then adjust levels in Premiere. Maybe this is not Phil's issue, but can't hurt to try.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 28, 2014, 11:15 AM:

Gotcha!

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on April 29, 2014, 01:21 AM:

Many thanks for replies and suggestions, the ND filter was something I was unaware of. I doubt either camera can exactly take a filter lenses, but I believe I can update one to fit.

Was aware of frame rates, I read awhile back on a site I thought I had booked marked, that there is some sort of formula one can use, not sure how right that is, anyway both video cameras are set to 1/25fps and projector is 18fps, I don't get any flickering.

Oh I am in Australia so I use Pal by the way.

And yes Maurizio ( Janice) are right I can adjust speed, colour etc in Adobe PE, Been learning to use it, actually have created a couple of videos, but older ones, have more of the above issue.

As for variable speed projector or one that can run at 20fps, is that necessary for PAL? As these are hard to find, I have come across a couple which have something, called two adjustable potentiometers on circuit boards inside the back cover “That is from details on a ELMO ST-800 SUPER-8 SOUND PROJECTOR

http://www.8mm16mmfilmscollectibles.com/super-8.htm

Thanks
Phil

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on April 29, 2014, 02:12 AM:

Phil...Your Sankyo 600 actually has variable speed adjustments. If you ever do have sync problems with your transfers there are two pots located in the upper right corner in the back of the projector. Use a plastic screwdriver or wooden letter opener to turn the sloted pots.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on April 29, 2014, 04:08 AM:

In the case of PAL, you want your projector to run at 16,66 frames per second (refer to Janice's picture); this and the use of its three-blade shutter, will let you achieve an actual framerate of 49,(9) fields per seconds, which is perfect for your cameras being set at 25 or 50 Hz shutter speed operation.
But how do you know when the right speed has been achieved? Very simple: set up the videocamera ready for use with the shutter set as described; run the projector in FWD lamp on mode and turn the relevant trimpot in the direction shown (veeeeery gently, please) until you see no flicker on the blank screen. Note, you may want to start this process with the iris almost closed so it's easier to spot any flickering, and maybe use multiples of 50 at this stage (like 200): this too will make any flicker more apparent. At some point you may notice you can hardly further improve the illumination on the screen; that's the mnoment to stop tunign the motor and reset the camera to 25 or 50 Hz. Voila, you are ready to go.

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on April 29, 2014, 04:16 AM:

Many thanks again you two, a lot of knowledge you have.

Janice with ND filters, one has to be careful I can see from my research to make sure their optical, some on Ebay may not be what they appear. Do you have any brand recommendation or source to get them from? Ta Phil

ps, at first look I didn't think my Sankyo 600 had them, but yes they are there, even the wiring is same, see picture. Thanks again.

[ April 29, 2014, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Phil Mitchell ]

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on April 29, 2014, 09:44 AM:

You will either need a set of 3 filters #1,#2, #3...Hoya, Tiffen, Sony are good brands. There are some brands from China that are cheap enough though to give them a try. There is also the option of going with the variable polarizing ND lens. I don't have one...but I'm looking at buying one to try.

I find by using the ND filter I don't have to stop down the aperture as much which reduces flicker. I admit to not knowing all the science involved in video transfers... hence most of my knowledge has come from just plain old trial and error. I'm also a projector and gadget junkie... so buying and trying some of these accessories is fun too.

I also find that there isn't one formula for each roll of film or even from scene to scene...especially home movies. Footage that is very dark you may not want to use any filters and try adjusting the brightness and contrast and levels in post.

Good luck with your transfers and most important....HAVE FUN!

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on May 07, 2014, 11:27 PM:

Thanks for reply and suggestions Janice.

Yes I've read up a bit more about these filters ( one of my camera's actually can take 37.5mm ones. ) The polzaring one, not sure if that is same as what I keep finding a UV one, which also cuts down ghosting if filming in outdoors and bright sky.

I keep finding them rated as ND 2, 4 6 etc, but a set of 3 would be way to go, as who knows what strength one needs, there are also ones that can be adjusted on how much they filter. So a set as you suggested is what I will try, but I get myself a UV one, can get them in Australia under $20. As for slowing projector down, ah yeah I did that, can't say it helped, slowing 18fps down to maybe 16 or even a little turn on that pot, caused a flickering strobe effect when I projected and captured. I think I stick at 18fps as I don't get any flickering etc at that speed.

Do you or others here know much about Eumig machines? I have a S905, which has that knob on it's rear which can slow film down to take a still or something, one I got cheap off Ebay when I first started this. Something is playing up, as to get projector to run, I have to turn that knob first, which isn't right, wasn't orginnaly like it. Cheers Phil

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on June 08, 2014, 03:37 AM:

Hi Janice and others. How’s things.

Janice thanks for putting me onto ND filter, wow it helps, and typical the cheaper $9 one on EBay ended up being a better one than $35 one. Isn’t that always the way. Have you tried the Polarising one yet, I got one and also an Ultra Violet one, can't say they do much. Well not so far in my brief
Testing.
The ND filter is real getting rid of the ghosting around bright objects and people, making things far clearer after digital capture.

But have a look at this short video post, maybe I can’t do much with something like this as it seems to have been filmed on a hazy day and into sun and original camera man had maybe exposure wrong.
But if you or others have any suggestions if there is a tool or effect in Adobe Premiere to clear up this sun Glare, I would be very grateful.
Also anyone know how to put a border around a video in Adobe, where the black is, I can widen film which I have working with safe margins, still would look better with some border.
One can do it in Sony Vegas Pro trial, but I am not forking out $600 plus on it for one feature different.

Cheers and thanks
Phil

Ps Janice I post a video tomorrow maybe of a film I have used ND filter on. ( Also I fixed the Eumig S905 issue.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA0XK8EEG7w

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on June 08, 2014, 06:10 AM:

Quote ... " As for slowing projector down, ah yeah I did that, can't say it helped, slowing 18fps down to maybe 16 or even a little turn on that pot, caused a flickering strobe effect when I projected and captured. I think I stick at 18fps as I don't get any flickering etc at that speed."

Fact ... Strobing occurs when the speed IS NOT 16.66 fps. So if you got NO STROBING at the original setting, but it "strobed" when you moved away from that setting, then the original speed WAS 16.66fps, not 18 fps.

Were you the first owner of the projector, or had someone else PREVIOUSLY reset it for transfer purposes?

Martin

[ June 08, 2014, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on June 08, 2014, 10:28 AM:

Hi Phil...I"m really glad the ND filter is working out for you. As far as the sun glare...my opinion is just leave it. It looks really cool and many cinematographers plan sun glare shots on purpose. I don't think you want to get into frame by frame rotoscoping with After Effects. I've done this and it's a very long and tedious process [Frown]

To add the borders you want. First in Premiere Pro enlarge the image to fill the top and bottom of the frame. Then from the menu... select Title > New Title > Based on Template > Mattes > Matte Pillarbox. Save it as you would any title and drag it to the layer above the video and stretch it to the proper length of your clip in the timeline. This will add vertical black bars on the right and left side of the 4x3 image to clean up the edges of the frame.

When you initially set up your transfer you should try and fill the top and bottom of your viewer and center the image if you are using a 16x9 format on your camera. This will minimize any enlarging you might have to do later in Premiere.

[ June 08, 2014, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on June 09, 2014, 06:30 AM:

Hi Janice, thanks for reply and instructions.

I was not using Premiere Pro, but Premiere Elements. V 12.1

I downloaded trial of Pro CC, looks certainly like it has more features than Elements. I'll see how I go. Lots to learn, but fun doing it as you say.
As for Sun Glare, yeah I am probably trying for perfection not possible and it after all is a natural event, one sees it now in digital films and say on TV news reports.

Main thing is ND filter has got rid of that halo ghosting effect, even on a bright sunny day at the beach. And it is quite amazing what I am seeing in a couple of films I have used it on, that I had not picked up before.

What is the Polarizing Lens supposed to do Janice, you tried it yet? Thanks Phil

Martin
Re Strobing and speed, no I was not first user of the Eumig S905, I bought it off EBay last year (that person or someone before him certainly played around with speed or something on this unit) and it has never worked right till now, but I am using the Sankyo 600 I have for my film captures, far netter machine in my view
The S905 after some adjustments, has one minor annoyance, its belt is slipping along its drive rod on the cog, only a little but enough to make any speed adjustments I make using the hexagon plastic adjuster underneath the FPS speed knob. I can see it slip each way depending on which way I am running unit. Hence when a voice over comes on, it is a little too fast, is there any product that can be used? Just wondering. Ta Phil

ps don't let You Tube adjust any video you upload, one I uploaded yesterday it said it was shaky and I let it adjust it, if you ask me, it is even more shaky.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on June 09, 2014, 09:01 AM:

Phil, I don't know Premiere Elements...but if it doesn't have the Letterbox and Pillarbox matte features...you can make your own matte in Photoshop or the free GIMP.

I haven't used a polarizing filter yet...so can't provide any feedback. Technically like an ND they are used to cut down glare when filming in bright sunlight situations. I don't know if they work with film transfers.

[ June 09, 2014, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on June 11, 2014, 04:25 AM:

Thanks Janice, I see how I go.

Still learning Elements, it may have feature.

Cheers
Phil

Posted by James E. Stubbs (Member # 817) on June 21, 2014, 08:48 PM:

An ND filter is a good way to cut out halo. Another method I've used, which also reduces the presence of scratches, is placing a piece of opaque ground glass between the lamp-house and the shutter. This diffuses the light giving more evenly lit projection eliminating hot spots and most flares.
Cheers,

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on June 22, 2014, 01:41 AM:

Thanks for suggestion James.

I look into it.

ND filter is good, although it does cut out, well it seems to effect two colours mainly, blue and green, one has to be careful if what one is capturing has sea or sky or a lot of green scenery, although I am expiermenting with Elements to adjust it back.

It is quite amazing in a way of what one picks up on the same films they have done a first capture of without ND filter, to what I now see using ND filter. Things are clearer.

Cheers
Phil

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on July 06, 2014, 01:53 PM:

Phil...I finally bought a Fotga Variable ND Filter off Ebay. I found the quality of the lens was not that great...at least for my telecine setup. I'm capturing directly off the film. Combining the macro lens with the variable ND filter I could not get a sharp focus. Perhaps a higher quality lens would work better.

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on July 07, 2014, 02:12 AM:

Hi Janaice, how's things.

Don't know that brand, but this is the one I got off Ebay, it has variable settings so you can adjust how much light is getting through. Depending of what I am capturing I use near the min setting on it, but as you would know it varies.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201043821581?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Also I will post in a minute or 5 back on thread about my Sankyo 600, Doc Frank has contacted me and suggested Micro Switch he did comment that these units are buggers to work on. He ain't kidding.

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on July 07, 2014, 02:03 PM:

Phil...here is the fader I purchased...it's pretty must equivalent to the one you bought http://www.ebay.com/itm/251445945469?var=550360691362&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649.

I think it would be fine for shooting off a projected image...but capturing directly from the film gate... there's a very short depth of field and focus is much more critical. It's a cool little filter though and I can use it for my regular video content.

Posted by Phil Mitchell (Member # 3876) on July 09, 2014, 02:45 AM:

Hi Janice
,

yes it would be, but for filming straight off the gate as you are doing, I have know real knowledge of.

I've seen some videos on YT where p[eople change the Bulb etc in projector and line up a non digital camera to film directly from modified lense of projector, they use 3 small LED lights instead of a LED Bulb,, I've seen, I do not know the results of this is much better than what I am doing, it all depends on quality of 8mm one has orginnaly in my view. & a modified gate etc, seems a lot of work to me, anyway good luck with it.

Yes for straight off a capture screen like I am doing the ND adjustable lens dos get rid of halo effect and again using camera if it has a iris adjustment option, that is almost same thing, not quite. I find lens better to use, as one runs a film, it is easier to adjust it rather than going through options of camera to adjust Iris to right setting.

Tell me if you know what is normal speed a commercial super 8mm film with sound runs at? like a Cartoon one.

I am just wondering why projectors have 24fps as 18 seems more common, although only sound I have to go by is what my father recorded onto film himself during editing. He obviously recorded it at 18fps.

Cheers
Phil

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2