8mm Forum: Second-hand Super 8 v 16mm

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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 03, 2014, 10:55 AM:

Why are second-hand Super 8 films invariably damaged, torn perfs and scratched, whereas 16mm films seem to go on forever?

Is it that the first owners of Super 8 films used cheap projectors and often had very little experience in handling films and their projectors, particularly things like cleaning the gate on a regular basis? And, perhaps rewinding on the projector?

The very small perforations of Super 8 films also do not help their longevity. This particular fault does need seem to extend to standard 8 films.

It seems that the handlers of 16mm films had great experience in using their projectors.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 03, 2014, 11:43 AM:

For Super 8 films, I have found that the vast majority of projectors out there are all very capable of writing a print off in one run no matter what you do to keep the path etc clean!
I have only three machines that I trust implicitly.

I cannot speak for 16mm as I have never had any but judging by the comments I have seen on here there are loads of damaged and scratched films, usually all the ones people want and have therefore been run to death.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 03, 2014, 11:45 AM:

Maurice. I stated collecting about 75, but had bought Movie Maker magazine from about73 I recall many letters about super 8 and the damage caused to library prints. Derek Simmonds had many problems in those days, in fact a few stopped super 8 renting and just did standard 8.

If you also look at some of the projectors that were sold then its no wonder that so many films were damaged. Many of the cheaper end were sprocketless relying on just the claw to pull the film through.

I once bought a ex-library print of Naked And The Dead, wow was it damaged lots of torn sprockets holes, and many scratches only a £5 though.

I bought the ELMO ST1200O/M I think it was about 6 weeks wages. And don't tell my boss at the time put it through his business and got the VAT back 25% at the time.

When you look at the old ads for projectors I think that looks very cheap and nasty, they properly were too.

If you look at 16mm this was more of a semi-professional gauge and the projectionist should have had some training.

At my school only about four teachers used the projectors.

Posted by John Hermes (Member # 1367) on July 03, 2014, 11:53 AM:

I have used all three guages extensively (35mm also) and have transferred film to video for thirty years. I would say super 8 is more prone to perforation damage than regular 8 or 16mm. I have seen less perforation damage in regular 8 than anything else. The small perfs in super 8 are the culprit, in my opinion, although with everything in order, super 8 is fine. Terrible scratches in 16mm are seen too, but it is easier to keep the machines clean. If you have a clean machine in good working order and handle the film carefully, each guage is okay.

[ July 03, 2014, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: John Hermes ]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 03, 2014, 12:29 PM:

quote:
I have only three machines that I trust implicitly

What are these, Andrew?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 03, 2014, 02:09 PM:

In this order they are:-

1/ Bauer T610 (probably most other models also) eg 525etc
2/ Eumig S938/940
3/ Beaulieu 708EL (now it's back to original state)

I could also include the Agfa sonnector (Bauer designed) in there as well but it is top sprocketless and really isn't meant to run features with its modest 100w lamp,600ft spool capacity.
Nice machine for short films on small screen sizes though.

All of the three I have mentioned WILL still scratch once they develop a fault but will never when all is A1 in my experience. Plus when all is A1 you really never need worry about constant cleaning etc, they tend to be so kind to film, they look after themselves by and large. I certainly don't need to clean between reels as I hear some on here have to in order to relax.

With this in mind compared to the hundreds of different machines out there to choose from, it is little wonder there are soo.. many damaged prints?

Also not everyone is a born genius projector service engineer, so it is hardly surprising that some decent films end up ruined through ignorance of an ill condition on any machine. This has probably happened to all of us at one time or another. It certainly has me on many many occasions until I find what the fault is & why.

That is my experience of two times around in the hobby and I have owned many many more machines but some including Imac, Cinerex, chinnon, and some of the early Eumig ones I had were absolutely awful at handling film and would put you off the hobby for life in a matter of weeks if you were new to the game and didn't know better existed.

I know Elmo's can be made scratch free but typically you have to work very hard to achieve this and constantly have to monitor for wear etc, regularly lose the bottom loop and without keeping it in a surgeons operating theatre, I find your heart is constantly in your mouth. I never relax while watching films on any that I have had. Can't speak for the GS1200 though,as I have never had one.

Also never had a Fujica or Fumeo so I cannot comment on any of those either. From what I hear Fumeo are very good though I believe. I also hear the best Braun Visacoustic (2000),is a belter but once again, cannot comment as I never have found one in the UK.

One of the measures I use to guage whether or not I have good machine in my hands, is if I can run it backwards regularly without it damaging film. Not many can boast this but my top 3 can and have on many occasions. This is pretty much a necessity if you use your PJ to record on but it is surprising how many do this basic function really badly and will scratch regularly when attempting to do so.

[ July 03, 2014, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 03, 2014, 03:33 PM:

I think the introduction of auto threading was the worst thing that ever happened to super 8mm. A totally unnecessary feature, it has undoubtedly been responsible for the mutilation of more super 8 footage than anything else. My bolex 18-5 manual thread projector can be so easily threaded up in a few seconds, and it has never scratched, torn, or buckled, a single frame of film.
Many super 8 projectors were(are) really cheap and nasty, and the designs ignored the simple basics of protecting the film. Even Eumig dipped into cheap and nasty waters with some of their sprocketless design projectors, some of which were in fact not so inexpensive.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 03, 2014, 03:47 PM:

You are right Paul, but the ones that got it right (auto-threading that is) got it spot on, and this doesn't cause a problem on them.

I have never owned a manual threading machine but I know the Fumeo is well respected for just the same reasons as your Bolex.

Posted by Ken Finch (Member # 2768) on July 05, 2014, 11:59 AM:

Just like to add my "penerth" to this topic. In my experience including running a film library, and using all 4 narrow gauges,
The worst culprits are the projectionists who have liitle interest in the hobby and never bothered to follow the instuctions provided by the manufacturer regarding cleaning, maintenance and care of film etc. Secondly, self threading projectors which I have never found to be as efficient as manual threaders whatever make. Thirdly sprocketless projectors which were only ever designed to run vsry short films efficiently. Finally, plastic parts which ware quickly and then cease to work properly. I may add that the perfect projector does not exist on ANY gauge!! Ken Finch. [Big Grin]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 05, 2014, 01:09 PM:

The 35mm Kalee 21 was pretty good when I worked for Odeon.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 05, 2014, 01:17 PM:

I tend to agree with Ken on this topic. Lazy, inexperienced projectionists who when confronted with a malfunction which requires the projector to be stopped and the problem rectified, simply resort to the old adage 'The show must go on' resulting in permanent film damage. I would also agree that some of the cheap projectors have a reputation as film shredders. Especially some auto thread machines that are near impossible to unlace.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 05, 2014, 01:46 PM:

Ken your words echo that of many, and much of my own, however even for the novice or lazy projectionist the auto threading and scratch free film paths of the ones I mentioned are pretty much fool proof even without meticulous cleaning. Obviously this is assuming all is in good order on the machines to start with.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 05, 2014, 04:22 PM:

Andrew
And that is the problem. You are talking about machines that are 50yrs old and have had little or no use for many years. They are then purchased by people who are used to 'plug in and play' machines and have no concept of these projectors or the procedural requirements needed for operation. I once sold a Eumig to a novice and he complained that once plugged in it made a noise which sounded like the motor was running. He could not understand that it was just the fan. What do they teach these people at school?

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 05, 2014, 04:23 PM:

Andrew
And that is the problem. You are talking about machines that are 50yrs old and have had little or no use for many years. They are then purchased by people who are used to 'plug in and play' machines and have no concept of these projectors or the procedural requirements needed for operation. I once sold a Eumig to a novice and he complained that once plugged in it made a noise which sounded like the motor was running. He could not understand that it was just the fan. What do they teach these people at school?

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 05, 2014, 04:24 PM:

Andrew
And that is the problem. You are talking about machines that are 50yrs old and have had little or no use for many years. They are then purchased by people who are used to 'plug in and play' machines and have no concept of these projectors or the procedural requirements needed for operation. I once sold a Eumig to a novice and he complained that once plugged in it made a noise which sounded like the motor was running. He could not understand that it was just the fan. What do they teach these people at school?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 06, 2014, 01:59 AM:

When the Eumig is plugged into the mains the motor runs, the fan is attached to it.
The drive starts when the control knob is turned, this moves the rotating drive into contact with the large black disc which then revolves thus driving the mechanism.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 06, 2014, 02:27 PM:

Quite right Maurice. The point I was making is that the projector doesn't run when you plug it in. It's just the fan. (Unless you plug it in with the control switch in forward or reverse of course.)

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on July 07, 2014, 07:11 AM:

I totally agree with Paul. So called "self" threading projectors are the prime cause of most of the damaged super 8 films out there. Even collectors with experience and decent machines fall victim sometimes to their films being chewed up and crinkled up ...sprocket holes shredded.
Same thing happened when 16mm projector makers serving schools came out with self threaders.
Oh, how I love my Kodak Pageants ...totally manual threading machines.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on July 07, 2014, 07:12 AM:

I totally agree with Paul. So called "self" threading projectors are the prime cause of most of the damaged super 8 films out there. Even collectors with experience and decent machines fall victim sometimes to their films being chewed up and crinkled up ...sprocket holes shredded.
Same thing happened when 16mm projector makers serving schools came out with self threaders.
Oh, how I love my Kodak Pageants ...totally manual threading machines.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 07, 2014, 07:41 AM:

You can say that again!

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