8mm Forum: dts on Super 8mm

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Posted by Barry Attwood (Member # 100) on July 24, 2014, 12:00 AM:

I wonder if 8mm projectors were still being made today, that we would be only using a magnetic sound pick-up system, I wonder if something like DTS or Dolby Digital could be added to 8mm prints, after all the digital information is only printed onto the edge of the film like the old optical 8mm prints, instead of having an analogue reader you have a digital reader, it's just the way the sound is decoded after all! Wouldn't that be wonderful, and it would make the 8mm prints a little cheaper as no stripe would be needed, although all these prints could be striped to be sold in the conventional way if required. It will never happen now, but it would be mind blowing, the current excellent print quality together with digital (5.1) sound.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on July 24, 2014, 01:29 AM:

Barry, you have vision!

That would have been awesome had the 2 technologies married together. But their timing was a little off. The better part of both worlds for sure.

PatD

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on July 24, 2014, 02:32 AM:

In a theoritical world, replacing the optical track by a DTS time-code track seems do-able. One would still need a DTS processor for sound loading/storage and sync-playing.
Although I wonder if the pulse track could be converted to sound that could be recorded on the mag track, said mag track would then act as the TC track. It feels like something we discussed with Brad many years ago.
Dolby Digital is a different beast. The sound is printed as a series of small "video" signals between the sprockets of a 35mm print. Said space being roughly 1/4 of a super 8 image size. The reader is like a small camera, sending the signal to a special decoder.
I think that, considering the progress made over the last years in film printing, even now that it's going down the drain, analog optical sound would be the best for super 8 prints.
Believe me, a good analog Dolby SR track can knock the teeth off of a Digital track if the projection equipment isn't properly maintained.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 24, 2014, 04:10 AM:

My thoughts exactly Jean.

Lets take it a stage further. A small memory card say 32gig should be able to hold multiple languages in 5.1. Also by utilising the PC output for a monitor you could also have sub-titles projected at the bottom the screen too.

Now this would be fantastic, the proper look of film projection with better than cinema sound.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 24, 2014, 04:38 AM:

Film collecting was/is never cheap. DTS would have put it all beyond reach however desirable it sounds.
If the disc was broken in the future where would a replacement come from?

Posted by Barry Attwood (Member # 100) on July 24, 2014, 04:45 AM:

Wasn't there another system used in some Theaters, SDDS (It's something like Sony Dynamic Digital Sound), how was that put onto 35mm prints?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 24, 2014, 05:55 AM:

As I remember it, digital sound was encoded optically on the little peninsulas between the sprocket holes. They also had conventional soundtracks for the theaters that weren't equipped to play digital sound on the same films.

It's a pretty safe bet an optical track would fit where the mag track sits on a conventional print.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 24, 2014, 06:18 AM:

Using one of the memory cards like those used in digital cameras would do away with the disc problem. And they could be back-up to your harddisks.

Sure that a system solely for super 8 would be possible and run from a laptop. After all the early days of 8mm there were all sorts of types to sync your tape recorders.

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 24, 2014, 06:32 AM:

It might make more sense to have a laptop that can somehow sync with the projector rather than an SD card. The card is just storage. You need an interface to program and control in points and monitoring.

You could potentially do all of this with a laptop, VLC, a cheap digital projector, and a GS1200 w/ a sync box.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on July 24, 2014, 08:02 AM:

Maurice: replacing a DTS disc is easy if you can find someone who owns a set of the same title. The disc is a fairly standard non crypted data storage CD. I've replaced some of my titles (and enlarged my collection) through file sharing over the Net.
Barry: SDDS was yet another attempt of imposing another digital format. It was Sony's own and required another reader. SDDS tracks are on the very edge of the film, most subject to wears and therfore a lower quality print would easily loose its SDDS sound.
Steve: most recent prints featured Dolby Digital and DTS (when available) on top of a regular analog SR track. In case of digital sound failure, you could always revert to analog sound.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 24, 2014, 08:49 AM:

I'm pretty sure a modern high end super-8 sound projector would have a DVD ROM drive, a USB port and come with a disk with the manual and various utilities.

There is just so much that used to be difficult to accomplish in hardware that is downright easy with a microprocessor.

An ELMO or Eumig control app for your smart phone would have to happen eventually (volume, focus, frame, start, stop, lamp percentage, belt percentage...).

Posted by Ernie Zahn (Member # 274) on July 24, 2014, 08:59 AM:

More likely just the USB port. DVD is just too lossy to be a good Cinephile pairing to Super 8.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 24, 2014, 09:43 AM:

Hey Ernie,

I'm thinking of the DVD drive as a means of syncing up regular DVDs, as some of us do now by means of multiple devices. Other than that it could be a means of playing second system sound tracks done as a CD.

I could also imagine films showing up unstriped, just optically encoded to automatically select and play a soundtrack on a CD locked in sync.

-and when when the end comes, dim the bulb, turn down the volume and stop the transport as soon as the film clears the machine.

If there is a second machine and the next reel is loaded up, do a changeover.

Of course as this becomes so automated it's hands off, it becomes less and less of a hobby.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on July 24, 2014, 10:06 AM:

Wonder how the dts or separate sound card would handle splices and missing footage? Let's just go back to Vitaphone.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 24, 2014, 10:15 AM:

No problem if the films has timecode on it. Shouldn't the soundtrack auto correct for missing frames?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 24, 2014, 10:17 AM:

Exactly

-let's build this sucker! [Wink]

Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on July 24, 2014, 10:35 AM:

I have a couple of sound movie digests using the Vitaphone Sound system. They were packaged by Americom.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on July 24, 2014, 11:33 AM:

The only format that would be doable is dts timecode on track 2 track with a mono mag analog backup on track 1 (if the dts failed).

In theory yes this would be possible, but it would require an original 35mm print of the movie and the Super8 print, and a few days of work in a non-linear editor tweeking the timecode to match the differences in the prints. But yes when it was all said and done, it would work.

Dolby digital and SDDS could never work on Super8.

It's MUCH easier to simply re-record the mag with dbx noise reduction though. What you have to do (and this really should be done with any re-recording) is to record pink noise onto the stripe you will be recording onto. Then play it back and see how far off the frequency response is and adjust to get it flat gain. Then reverse those settings and re-record through the new reversed curve and playback again to see if the raw output is indeed flat. Once this has been obtained you should start your recording through the reverse curve.

Note the above will only work 100% on the same machine that is recording/playing back...that is if you want absolute perfect quality.

From there simply add a dbx noise reduction box inline while you are recording and obviously inline upon playback as well. You will be shocked at the resulting quality. It'll be dangerously close to a CD. I've re-recorded a few Super8 prints in dbx this way and it blew everyone away.

Posted by Barry Attwood (Member # 100) on July 25, 2014, 03:53 AM:

I didn't realise how technical it would be to arrange something like a DTS track onto 8mm, so I suppose the only real alternative to a mag track is the good old fashioned optical track. Still it was only a dream, but I do wonder sometimes if 8mm projectors had carried on being made in large amounts what new technical applications could have been placed into them over the preceeding years.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 25, 2014, 08:36 AM:

I think that remote RF or IR control of the projector functions, most specifically focussing, would surely have been a feature of the top projector models.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on July 25, 2014, 08:59 AM:

-continuous autofocus!

(So the image stays sharp as the lamp heats up the optics.)

There are days I think my eyes are tired or the print is soft, only to discover what's really needed is a slight re-tweak of focus.

-but hey, for all the good it will do we can decide this machine should be powered by fusion!

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 25, 2014, 01:46 PM:

Looks like my little project for the darker nights is to try and re-dub a copy of 1 reel I have in German to English.

It would be fantastic if you could get films with a full 5.1 soundtrack on a memory card and they synced up to your projector.

The reason I say memory card is durability and the ease of the use of your laptop.

Dolby Digital DTS or what ever could all work with the sound from dvd/blu-ray I would think.

Only problem with optical tracks how many could use them.

Am I dreaming or too much wine. I do wish it could happen.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on July 26, 2014, 04:33 AM:

Yes DD/DTS has been used by Keith Wilton at the BFCC with a DVD player sending pulses via a pulse extractor box to the tape sync system of an ELMO GS1200. In this system the disc controls the projector speed.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on July 26, 2014, 04:53 PM:

quote:
Dolby Digital DTS or what ever could all work with the sound from dvd/blu-ray I would think.

That's nothing more than simply playing the DVD in sync with a Super 8mm print.

quote:
Yes DD/DTS has been used by Keith Wilton at the BFCC with a DVD player sending pulses via a pulse extractor box to the tape sync system of an ELMO GS1200

Same thing as above really. It's just running in sync with a video.

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