8mm Forum: Sound Heads

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Posted by Mark Kligerman (Member # 4354) on August 31, 2014, 01:02 PM:

Hi Everyone,

I know that Eumig projectors have sound heads that wear down over time. Does the same problem afflict Elmo projectors?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 31, 2014, 01:12 PM:

They all do but Elmo heads are more durable than most.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 31, 2014, 03:20 PM:

generaly speaking heads wear so much more when they are used a lot for recording, if all u do is watch films they shoulld last the life of a projector, Elmo heads are certainly much stronger, or at least that seems to be the common thought, if you buy a used machine that you know to have been used heavily for recording i'd always steer clear [Wink]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 31, 2014, 03:29 PM:

The Elmo heads used a special alloy called Sendust and they seem to last forever. Eumig heads definately wear down a lot faster, particularly the narrow track 2 head. Which is why, when projecting mono films, I always use a modified pressure pad to remove the pressure on the track 2 head of my Eumig 938 (thank you Maurizio for that great tip).

Posted by Mark Kligerman (Member # 4354) on August 31, 2014, 04:45 PM:

Thanks everyone. This is of great help. By the way, how do the sound heads on a Sankyo compare to those of an Elmo?

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on August 31, 2014, 05:50 PM:

Thank you,Paul. But I disagree with Tom: head wear simply depends on contact with mag track, regardless using it for recording or playback - it's just a mechanical thing, not electric/magnetic.

As regards Mark's second question, in my experience Sankyo heads seem to compare very well with Elmo's; they really look like very similar (in fact I suspect they came from the same manufacturer as Elmo's); they do not last that long but much longer than Eumig's and you rarely have to replace it on a Sankyo.

One thing that can affect head's life, especially Eumig's track 2, is cement splices: because of the pressure pads design, these put a lot of stress on the gap whenever a splice is dragged through, if its thickness is too much. Eumig themselves cared to inform in their manuals that the sound quality depends on the condition of the sound head (translating: its wear) AND how good splices are made. A good cement splice not only is hardly audible but will not put too much stress on the system: it must have just a slight increase in thickness and the joined ends must be perfectly aligned longitudinally. Bevel splices are ideal AND they must be clean and flat: sometimes old cement can have some delayed action and bend the splicing point noticeably; perhaps the film will still go through the aperture gate relatively unnoticed but the sound head will suffer from this. Add to that a self made film may contain dozens and dozens (possibly hundreds) of splices and these then become a relevant factor to head wear along with stripe type: paste stripes tend to be sort of coarser to the heads, whereas laminated is slightly smoother.

Finally a question: I had the chance to notice Noris' sound heads and Braun Visacustic's are quite similar albeit very differently arranged as regards their mounting/adjustment. It is usually accepted Eumig were an all-round manufacturer, providing (almost?) all parts for their machines in-house. But perhaps this was not the case of sound heads, unless both Noris and Braun had Eumig make them on their behalf. It would be nice to discover the independent manufacturer of these heads is still in business, maybe just daydreaming!... But does anybody know anything about this?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 01, 2014, 01:40 AM:

A Eumig repair specialist once told me that - at least with an 800 series projector such as an 824 - a mere 200 hours use is enough for serious wear, which is worrying! Presumably there's no way of replacing a worn one unless you find a decent one in a 'spares' projector? If someone could manufacture good sound heads for a range of projectors, they might do good business even in this day and age.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 01, 2014, 03:41 AM:

Perhaps we should ask the Turin-based company "Photovox": they manufacture(d) sound heads for the Fumeo projectors, perhaps they can make some prototypes for other makes' projectors, although Eumig heads are totally different from the ones used in the Fumeo.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 01, 2014, 03:53 AM:

Carrying on from Maurizio's fine points raised, having just watched the full DVD collection of "Men Behind the Movies" and "Armchair Odeon" series, there is a section on the end of one of the discs, as an add on bonus piece of footage, that displays the wonderful design and manufacturing facility that Eumig once boasted all at one enormous plant in Austria.

The footage lasts around twelve minutes and shows the full design and manufacturing processes used in the early eighties which was really high tech for back then with many early CNC machines on display using "punch tape" or magnetic tape to hold the programes ha ha! One section of the video concentrated entirely on the manufacturing process of their magnetic sound heads used both in projectors and their cameras. This was one manufacturer that designed and produced all of their own parts from raw materials, even their lenses!

Moving on, I have found that many other companies did in fact use parts from an independent manufacturer and therefore there are some machines which share the same sound head. For instance the Bauer "Studioklasse" series of projectors use the Woelke 464 sound head as does the Beaulieu 708el twin track and Stereo models. I have also heard of people interchanging the Sanko and Eumig stereo soundheads as they are very similar if not the same I believe.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 01, 2014, 04:34 AM:

Here is tip to acquire a "new" projector with almost perfectly new sound heads which should last for years.

The tip?

Buy a projector that was probably bought for filming "baby on the lawn". Baby grew. Interest disappeared. The projector was stored away, then probably found some twenty years later and sold by "baby" who had no interest in his late father's prize possession.

So, look out for the original cardboard box in pristine condition, all the polystyrene insets complete, all accessories present, and, of course, the instruction book. (This latter often mysteriously disappears.)

This happened recently when I bought my Eumig 824 Sonomatic off German eBay. Everything is there right down to the swinging label affixed to the handle, some items are still in their sealed plastic bags.

The sound is crystal clear and it was a great buy.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 01, 2014, 05:54 AM:

Great tip Maurice, but I doubt anyone ever purchased a Fumeo 9119 or an Elmo GS1200 or Beaulieu 708EL for just such purpose from new and therefore gave it so little use only to find it turning up nowadays in someones loft.

These are three of the machines that work best in "Home Cinema" and therefore the most desirable machines by far, and out of the three, only Beaulieu offers new spare parts.

Therefore IMHO it has to be either a Beaulieu nowadays or if out of reach, a Bauer as parts can still be found for these too including brand new sound heads.

I cannot imagine the disappointment of say buying a well cared for GS1200 at let's say £750, only for the main motor to pack in 6 months down the line!

As Adam on here has recently seen, getting someone to part with a spare nowadays is nigh on impossible I would have thought.

I personally would much prefer to buy a used but well cared for high end machine which the owner has already done his homework some years ago and had the foresight to collect some vital spare parts for it over the years like a friend of mine has for his own GS1200's

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 01, 2014, 06:10 AM:

The topic is about Eumig projectors.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 01, 2014, 06:13 AM:

No it's not Maurice, it is about sound heads as the heading suggests. [Wink]

Having said all of that, I did see on the "odeon" series a collector who had converted an Fujicascope SD25 to a 250w long play machine by using an old slide transformer and a set of Spondon arms. The results were amazing but the PJ itself looked a dogs dinner after it had been butchered to fit external fans etc.
Also spondon long play arms are seldom seen anywhere for sale nowadays sadly.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 01, 2014, 06:34 AM:

Eumig sounds heads are defiantly softer, heads will wear eventually but if you use a projector very heavily for recording they will wear quicker.

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on September 01, 2014, 07:38 AM:

How about taking a sound head out of a camera wouldn't these be made to last?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 01, 2014, 09:49 AM:

Only Eumig and Elmo were mentioned in the opening posting. My comment about original boxes applied to them and can also include many interesting projectors, but none are quite in the class of the Beaulieu 708, Elmo GS1200, or Fumeo 9119.

I have all three of the latter and it would certainly be a surprise to find one in its original box. They were probably bought in the first place for "work" and not casual amateur home use, and unless they have been well maintained by their owners there is no way of knowing what you are buying, or whether you will have to go continually into your bank account to keep them going!

I have the following makes still in their original cardboard boxes:- Agfa, Bauer, Bell & Howell, Bolex, Chinon, Cineton, Copal, Elmo, Eumig, and Sankyo. All appear to have had little use.

Another. Not in a cardboard box but still complete in its black transit case, the delightful Fujicascope Sound SH30, a projector to die for.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 01, 2014, 12:16 PM:

Tom, can you please elaborate??? [Eek!]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 01, 2014, 02:05 PM:

Mine came in it's original card box Maurice and in the past month I have seen two lovely GS1200's for sale all with original boxes and all original accessories.

I think there are plenty of "desirable" machines out there that haven't been run to death on Soho and have been kept by caring owners, otherwise why would they spend the £800 or several thousand pounds that these machines cost in the first place?

As the subject was discussing wear to sound heads in general, I thought it was good relevant advice to point out the only machines out there which you can replace these with new.

If I was coming back into the hobby again now, I personally wouldn't look at at any Eumig just because there are no spares to be had. Even if you buy another machine the parts will no doubt have some wear to them including the heads and then what?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 01, 2014, 04:54 PM:

Which is why Andrew, that I severely limit the useage of my Eumig 938, much as I really love this projector. The Eumig 800 series heads were only rated for only about 150 hours, and I have no idea if the 900 series are more durable. My work horses now are GS1200's, the heads never seem to wear out, and you can still get a lot of spare parts for these machines from Leon Norris here in the USA. I have yet to find a part that I need, that Leon cannot supply. Leon once told me that he has only ever had to replace one head on all the GS1200'S that he has serviced.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 01, 2014, 05:45 PM:

Paul, I already know you have all of the wisdom and more to truly preserve all what you cherish, so your remarks don't surprise me one bit. Your Cinema has to be one of the very best there is, just stunning! [Wink]

I would like to get a GS Magnetic head and a main motor from Leon based on what you are telling me, just in case I ever decide to get a GS1200. Probably will stick with Beaulieu, but you just never know in life and these would never go to waste over here.

150 hours!! Jeez.. I do that in a month. Ha ha

I must admit, I must suffer with O.C.D. or reverse psychology a little being an engineer, as I wouldn't dream of purchasing a GS1200 nowadays without already having the necessary essential spares first.Forever the pessimist through experience on these things, me thinks. l.o.l.

[ September 02, 2014, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on September 01, 2014, 11:44 PM:

Well good, I wasn't crazy. My Eumig got muffled sounding in the first couple years, but my Elmo's never did. I always thought it was because my Eumig was supposedly "self-cleaning," and I though some debris built up on it that I couldn't swab off.

From the sound of things, it just wore out.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 02, 2014, 08:40 AM:

You mean by the lack of sound of things it just wore out. [Big Grin]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 02, 2014, 01:00 PM:

I had no idea that Eumig sound heads were rated so low in they're optimum level of great performance! On my 926 stereo, I must admit that the balance stripe sound is a little muffled these days, which is a shame.

I like Maurice's idea! Although, I'd rather get a 938 stereo this next time! I just love the audio quality of the Eumig stereo models!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 02, 2014, 01:27 PM:

The balance stripe side of the head always wears first on all models. This is the one to listen to (track 2) if you get chance to test a projector out before you buy.

If the balance track is loud and clear and shows the same output levels on a VU meter as track 1, the head should have lots of life left in it.

Another advantage with buying a Bauer or Beaulieu is they come with two heads. One is only used as a monitoring head during recording which tends to be little more than a gimmick in use. But what it does mean, is you can save the monitoring head as a spare and fit a worn out one in its place. I purchased a worn head off German E Bay for just a couple of euros and as a result I have a decent spare. I don't know of any Eumig's that have this arrangement, certainly the Elmo's don't, nor the 938.

As good as the 938 is, the head situation and spare part availability in general,would prevent me from buying another nowadays.You cannot even get hold of the patented toothed drive belt nowadays once it fails!

Also the 610 with it's Schneider lens and near silent running noise is a far superior machine to use in the home environment IMHO. From standard, it gives off a far sharper, brighter picture and has decent sound when slaved. Does an outstanding job of re-recording films also just to cap it off.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 02, 2014, 01:54 PM:

David I've always been wary of worn out Bauer heads: they have such a shape and the gaps protrude so little from the head's case that, when the mag gaps have gone, I am afraid they might start to scratch the film... [Frown]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 02, 2014, 01:58 PM:

Mine's alright Maurizio, obviously you have to keep an eye out for further wear to the dummy head, but no scratches so far six months in. [Smile]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 02, 2014, 03:29 PM:

I think the best advice with projectors is to buy two of the same model, if possible, keeping the best one in low useage mode, and using the other for most showings and as a source of future spares for the best one.
I wonder if anyone has ever taken a Eumig sound head apart to see how difficult it might be to reverse engineer it. It would be easy to measure up all the components of the head and create 3D models and CAD files on Pro-Engineer software, which would be exported to CNC machine tools. But, I imagine the cost would be a show stopper.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 02, 2014, 05:04 PM:

I tore apart the factory head my first S 926 was equipped with, once I realized the R/P gap for track 2 had split in two parts, probably due to some defect in manufacturing. I then installed a new one I purchased even before I bought the projector, 'cause I had previously experienced soundhead wear on my MArk 804 and could find no spares; in fact I had to change projector for this reason, but first I made sure I could get as many spare heads as possible. This was about the end of the Nineties... Why did I choose another Eumig despite the bad experience? Well, I had three spare heads at the time, I thought maybe these were stronger than the previous series's, there wasn't much choice in my home town, I found the 926 relatively cheap and... it was a beauty with all its microswitches and led lights. Plus I ewas only 20 and relatively unexperienced... Indeed I never regretted that choice, though, and I used this projector for some of my most challenging soundtracks.

So back to the main topic, basically the head consists in what seems to be an industrial ceramic container with four slots, two for each track, where every required gap is hosted (two R/P gaps and two Erase ones); once you removed the soldering points, you uncover these four slots and what you can see is a series of wires wound around the metal elements which protrude from the contact area. These elements are made of layers of magnetic alloy (possibly permalloy, which to the best of my knowledge, has excellent magnetic properties, albeit poor resiliance): 4 (main track) and 2 (balance track). Apart from the material used, one of the biggest differences between these heads and the heads used on projectors such as Elmo's or Sankyo's is the latter's can have the R/P section split from the erasure section: they are physically separated and held together by a screw. It's even possible to split them back from each other; not so with the Eumig head. Also, unlike series 800's, Eumig Series 900 heads are relatively easy to install and adjust whereas adjusting tilt and azimuth on Jap machines is a real pain in the neck. That's because the pressure pad cartridge is assembled in such a way, once installed, it becomes perfectly consistent with the rest of the head assembly, it fits with the sound head most like a Lego brick would do with another one. At that point every time you change azimuth, the pressing pins literally follow the head. And because of such arrangemente, there is no need to adjust tilt. IMHO it is a really clever design whose only flaw is the sound head softness... Again finding a supplier/new manufacturer for these heads would be great and give new life to thiese otherwise excellent machines.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 02, 2014, 05:39 PM:

If new heads could be manufactured for Eumigs, I think most of us would be perfectly happy with a playback only head, which would simplify things quite a bit.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 02, 2014, 08:01 PM:

I had a Eumig S940 with great sound. Then the next one I had with muffled sound. Both of them were in cosmetically perfect condition with both being in the original box. I loved the sound of the first one. Very musical and smooth.
I have a GS1200 Xenon in the original box with all the accessories. And another GS1200 in the box with no accessories. The GS1200 Xenon had very few hours on it but it looks like the motor control board went bad at one point and it was put back in the box. No wear and tear at all and is in MINT condition.
The Beaulieu 708 EL HTI was in Mint condition as well with 50 hours or so on the machine.
I think with the really High End machines the owners spent so much on them for the most part they used them sparingly. I have seen a few junker Xenon machines but not too many. And I have only seen one junker Beaulieu HTI. I bought it and Bjorn from Sweden brought it back to life.
I haven't had bad sound from any GS1200 and I have had a lot of them!

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 02, 2014, 08:34 PM:

The best thing you can do for your sound heads, for any projector, is to keep all your films clean and well lubricated. A slippery, polished, stripe surface will reduce head wear very significantly, and provide much better sound.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 03, 2014, 06:31 AM:

Paul, I totally agree.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on September 03, 2014, 07:34 AM:

Back in 1968 I bought a brand new Eumig Mark S standard 8 sound projector...and ran it and ran and ran it. After about two years, it needed new heads, but it was easy. The replacement heads just snapped in place. The standard 8 stripe was, of course, wider and easier to track that Super 8 main and balance stripes. But the snap in assembly really made it easy.

Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on September 03, 2014, 08:48 AM:

I'm thinking if the Eumig soundheads really do only last 150-200 hours I am going to be in trouble soon on my favorite projector 810D LUX HQS. I'm sure I've put that much time on it myself. I remembered somebody previously saying you can get new or reprofiled soundheads for your Eumig and I found it again http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006825#000000. Sorry I am on my mobile and can't make it a link. Has anybody else sent a head in for this service? Any more good or bad feedback on it?

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on September 03, 2014, 10:32 AM:

There is a finite point of wear on a Eumig head, beyond which they cannot be resurfaced. Somertone resurfaced one of mine at reasonable charge. The other head I sent them was too worn to be treated like the previous one. Google them for their website.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 03, 2014, 11:09 AM:

stick with 16mm you cant beat it

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 03, 2014, 11:57 AM:

It's good to see you guys keeping a "head" of things.

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

This is a magnificent discussion! I honestly had no idea that you could actually take your sound heads off and get them "resurfaced"? and get a lot more time out of them. That's amazing.

1. What is the actual process that they have to go through in order to restore your sound heads?

2. As long as the sound heads are caught in time (with only so much wear), can you keep your sound heads working indefinitely?

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on September 03, 2014, 12:21 PM:

Mention was made of paste and laminate strip. Is paste slightly raise in the middle and laminate flat?

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 03, 2014, 12:32 PM:

Osi, as I pointed out in one of those discussions regarding "resurfacing", I am afraid it's a term/process that can only apply to sound recorders' heads: that's because over the course of time the tape will dig into the head's surface, creating a tape-wide groove that will impair tape to head's gap contact, since the tape pressure felt pad (usually found on most audio tape recorders) will still lean against that part of the head's surface which doesn't come in touch with the tape (and is thus left wear-less). At that point the felt pad will not excise enough pressure on the sound head and the sound "image" will first be less steady, then will lose an enreasing part of high frequencies. Uness it is a "closed loop" (dual capstan) recorder which can do without pressers. "Resurfacing the head" will then, imply filing off the parts of the head's surface unaffected by wear so that the worn part will still come in full contact with the tape.

Now it should be plain clear that, because the gaps of a film projector are not embedded in the head's case but usually protrude a few millimeters, once the gap (the part which makes contact with the stripe) is worn, that's it.
Yet I have now to go a little further: in the case of EUmig machines, the pressure pads have a contact area of just 1 mm or so, hence the pressure excised onto the stripe (and conversely, the wear imposed onto the head gap) is very much concentrated on a very tiny portion of the gap itself. But because the gap is actually a little longer (2-3mm both before and after the actual contact point), the stripe will, in the course of time, dig in. As a result, even if there is still ca 50% of the "head", the stripe to head contact will become less consistent, there will be another "gap" between the two which we don't want - absolutely, since good recordings do need a very good contact between stripe and sound head. The result: muffled sound on the higher end of the frequency range (to various degrees, of course: the deeper tha gap, the worse).
You can also see that projectors with less tip-shaped sound pressers show a more uniform wear on the heads, making it almost unnoticeable.
Now in the case of someone who posted on this topic here, I tend to think the operation which he think was successfully accomplished, was, as a matter of fact, just filing away the parts of the very gap before and past the contact area. The gap surface was brought back to a plane level and good contact between head and stripe was regained. It's fine but it's not eternal because the gap will eventually wear in the same way. So, even if you can say you can still use a partially worn head, I woulnd't say it's the perfect fix because nothing is actually added to the head, but it's taken away; much like when you have to readjust a valve section of an engine (rectifying??). FYI the operation can be performed at home (in the case of projectors!!!) by using a very small abrasive disc, a powerful magnifying glass and a lot of care.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 03, 2014, 01:06 PM:

Well David is right of course about 16mm, you dont have any magnetic heads to worry about. In that respect, it is too bad that super 8mm optical prints never became widespread.
However David is quite wrong that 16mm cannot be beat. The fact is that super 8mm magnetic sound is vastly superior to 16mm momo optical, and of course well recorded super 8 stereo puts 16mm optical to shame.
Obviously Eumig designers never imagined that their projectors would be subjected to thousands of hours of running by film collectors. Elmo, in their wisdom, obviously did.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on September 03, 2014, 01:25 PM:

I am "he" who had this process done and it transformed a duff head into a good performer. It cost £30. For this money I'd rather not try at home and ruin the head. So let's not get bogged down with fine details. I had this done and it worked.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 03, 2014, 02:22 PM:

Yes paul I agree super 8 was good sound but its a pity the projectors didn't last ,if only they would have made them more heavy duty

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 03, 2014, 02:55 PM:

There are plenty of Super 8mm machines with superb build quality and plenty that will last as long as any portable 16mm machine, but of course will always sound far superior playing magnetic stereo tracks while ever the heads are still available to buy new or can still be found. I also don't need ear defenders to watch my films whilst trying to drown out the projector noise.

At least a couple of decades left in mine yet that's for sure.

Simon I am sending 5 Woelke heads off to them next week in the hope at least 3 can be rejuvenated to give a few more years yet [Smile]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 03, 2014, 04:57 PM:

Yes a lot of super 8 projectors do not have the build quality of 16mm machines and can be plasticky and toyish, but as Andrew points out there are many really solidly built super 8 machines. Among them the GS1200 of course, which is built like a tank, and I see no reason that my GS1200'S will not last me another 30 years.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 03, 2014, 05:20 PM:

Paul is right about keeping your films lubed but also I would watch out for the later years grey/browney Derann stripe which is like grinding paper for sound heads, bumps and holes even and very very rough.

Best Mark.

PS filmgaurd is best for prints with that stripe.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 03, 2014, 06:44 PM:

I agree Mark. The quality of some of the grey striped Derann films was appalling. I could'nt even re-record some of them. I can imagine they would be really rough on the sound heads.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 03, 2014, 09:29 PM:

I have to say that in my experience the superiority of Super 8 magnetic sound over 16mm optical is largely 'theoretical'. I have certain great examples, particularly from the Kodak pre-stripe era, such as 'Who Dares Wins', with sound so good that you can forget it's 8mm. But I'd also say that the sound on the majority of my 16mm print beats the majority of my Super 8 ones. Relatively modern 16mm prints, and some older ones, can have stunningly good, full bodied sound. Don't forget that a large proportion of Super 8 tracks are recordings of optical sound, some from 16mm prints! As for Super 8 stereo - great in theory but I used to think it was almost miraculous if you got a Derann feature beyond the pre-stripe era and found both tracks on every reel were of high quality with the same tone and similar volume!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 03, 2014, 11:55 PM:

Generally speaking Adrian, you are absolutely correct about the poor balance stripe after pre-striped stock. I have a good few exceptions though that were pasted and yet can re-record in stereo just perfectly.

Also the argument regarding the fact that the sound often comes from 16mm origins doesn't hold water when you can re-record from a digital source. That is something that is impossible on 16mm. Just like all of my optical S8 prints, what it comes with, is the best you can have and nearly all of my optical prints I would stripe and re-record if striping polyester was cheap enough and available in this country. Many used to go to the trouble and expense of doing just that years ago because the sound quality was so poor on their airline prints.

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on September 04, 2014, 01:19 AM:

i always found that super 8mm film and projectors were in the mickey mouse catagory. this is my own personal view. i know many who love the gauge. but you only have to look at this forum to see the many many problems that arise from super 8mm machines. it is indeed a great pity that no maker made a robust no frills super 8mm projector. even the GS 1200 had gadgets on it that most never ever used. i remember years ago that if you only possesed a sankyo or a bell & howell etc you were classed as having an inferior machine. especially by GS 1200 owners.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 04, 2014, 02:01 AM:

If you want no frills that is what an ST1200 is.

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on September 04, 2014, 02:09 AM:

a no frills robust machine. i dont class the ST 1200 as robust. sorry.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 04, 2014, 02:25 AM:

I would consider the Fumeo Machines as very robust. Not my favorite to use as I like the ergonomics and world class feel of the GS1200 and the Beaulieu Machines but the Fumeo 9119 I had was built like a tank with all metal parts. Manual threading and you got the feeling that If it fell off a building all you would need is a pair of pliers and you could get that thing working again.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 04, 2014, 10:44 AM:

quote:
I am "he" who had this process done and it transformed a duff head into a good performer. It cost £30. For this money I'd rather not try at home and ruin the head. So let's not get bogged down with fine details. I had this done and it worked.

Simon, I was just trying to explain why this cannot be done indefinitely, and trying to offer some inkling about the fact we are not talking about rocket science here. I too once "resurfaced" a Eumig head on my own... It worked plus... I spared £ 30 [Big Grin]

(not that I knew there are people offering this service at that time, so many thanks to you).
But IMHO it's not just a matter of "fine details" to get bogged down with; it's a matter of having as many information as possible which, consequently, puts everybody in the condition to make a better choice. In other words, just my toppence...

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 04, 2014, 11:25 AM:

The Elmo 1200 series are one of the most popular machines ever made, they are quite robust compared to the Eumigs, (nothing wrong with Eumig's tho), and at least with the 1200s you can get to the heads to clean them [Wink]

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on September 04, 2014, 12:25 PM:

the problem with the elmo was the plastic film path. after much use the film gets sctratched. ie scratches to the right when projected. i know several collectors had rollers fitted to stop the problem. a bad design fault by elmo.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 04, 2014, 01:50 PM:

All true and in many more places besides, as has been documented on here many many times. But to say they are not robust is nonsense when around 5 working examples a week come up on e bay globally on average. Nearly all still work perfectly apart from perhaps needing a change of belts and many of them were made around 40 years ago! What other electro mechanical machines do you see in such numbers that still work from that same era and would draw such a comment as "they weren't very durable or robust".

For whatever faults they have with the guides, for those who are fans of these machines, and i am not particularly one of them, they find ways around the scratching problems from the guides and then have a decent workhorse of a machine, on parity with many 16mm I would have thought and probably about as noisy! ha ha.

Most still have their original magnetic heads and still work well so not bad at all for 40+

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on September 04, 2014, 02:19 PM:

Andrew. it is just my personal view i am giving. as i said, there a many big fans of these machines.all said and done, we all use what suits.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 04, 2014, 07:40 PM:

Andrew - I have to say your argument that I can't favourably compare 16mm sound to Super 8mm, because I "can re-record Super 8 from a digital source" is dubious to put It mildly. Personally, I CAN'T re-record from any source, and I expect that applies to a large majority of members here. Even if I gained the appropriate knowledge equipment and skills, I certainly wouldn't have the spare time. Much as I'm a Super 8 enthusiast, I'd have difficulty thinking of any other entertainment medium where an important aspect of its quality is judged not on what you get for your (substantial) expenditure, but on what you can potentially achieve via do it yourself enhancement!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 04, 2014, 08:51 PM:

Haven't we done the 8mm vs 16mm thing enough here?

They both have merits and given the money, time and space I would do both.

-given even more I'd have a 35mm theater with a seperate drive-in out back, so maybe it's for the best my resources are limited!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 05, 2014, 07:35 AM:

Adrian, the investment is for the print not the mag stripe or else we would all have been happy paying £50 for a TDK C90 back in the day. The fact that Super 8mm users can bring their soundtracks to another level using lossless digital sources nowadays just puts the icing on the cake for top relatively modern prints. Plenty on here do this even if not regularly.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 05, 2014, 09:40 AM:

Steve - you're right that Super 8 v 16mm has been done to death. I probably shouldn't have contributed to any such diversion of this thread and as someone who likes and uses both, I don't think there's any need for competition. However, the relative merits of optical and magnetic sound do perhaps have relevance in a thread about sound heads.

Andrew - your point regarding a C90 makes little sense as no one buying a cassette tape would listen to a complete film soundtrack without any images to accompany it! Perhaps we can agree to differ but although I acknowledge that several members here sometimes do their own recordings, I'm convinced that a large majority would feel that the quality of a S8 soundtrack should make a significant impact on its valuation. E.g. I have a mint full length print of 'The Railway Children' that I intend to sell. Because the quality of the recording is poor, I was intending to offer it for around two-thirds of what the price would be if the sound was good. If anyone disagrees and would be inclined to pay 90 or 100%, please let me know!

I'll add that another flaw in your argument is that even if a S8 print is considered in terms of how good the sound could potentially be, that's still theoretical until the quality of recordings on the stripe can be evaluated. It's well-known that there have been periods when Derann's striping made it very difficult for collectors to get optimum results. Many collectors will also be aware that Derann prints, at least in the 1990s and beyond, had stripes that had audible 'built in' noise with crackles and pops that were very annoying even if the actual recording was OK. If Derann re-recorded a film, I think it would generally eradicate the noise but I don't think collectors using projectors were always so successful. I recall one suggesting to a member of Derann staff that new prints should be 'erased' before any recording was done, which would have been a solution, although thankfully not all their prints had the noise I'm referring to.

[ September 05, 2014, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 05, 2014, 02:53 PM:

Adrian, the analogy between mag stripes & an audio cassette was merely to point out, obviously, that the monetary value of the sound stripe when buying a film is very little compared to the actual transparencies otherwise no one of sound mind would have purchased any of these feature films at the prices they sold for when new. The argument as to which is the best between optical or magnetic soundtracks does not bring about any modicum of debate as far as most people are concerned, simply because everyone knows the frequency range is far greater on a mag track than an optical even on pasted.

BTW: if you decide to sell " Railway Children" on low fade stock anytime soon, I would buy for a good price irrespective of soundtrack. Before now, I have bought films in German only to have them back in English Stereo inside two days.

What I found the most laughable aspect from this whole 16mm vs 8mm debate is that an event organizer who would like presumably, to sell all guages of film on the day (after all there is even a promotion of such on here) , and will certainly be promoting the event to collectors of film of all guages and therefore presumably would like collectors of all guages to turn up, spend a little cash and support these events,... would then imply that 16mm is the be all and end all in projection! Furthermore would then infer that most super 8mm projectors are all past their sell by date given that they are little more than toy projectors due to piss poor build quality, which of course is an untruth on many many counts.

Surely that isn't great tact and diplomacy on any 8mm forum with regard to customer relations leading up to a convention, now is it?

[ September 10, 2014, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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