8mm Forum: Newbie ?? To synch or not to synch?

This is topic Newbie ?? To synch or not to synch? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on March 30, 2015, 01:18 PM:

8mm projector ?? for online inquiries! 3-30-15

Hello!

I am trying to dump both 8mm & super 8 to my computer via a telesync box

and a sony hi8 camcorder with a capture unit (aren't we all:) I knew I would

run into a frame rate problem before I started, so my projector does not have

any type of speed control whatsoever. I am under the assumption after

reading various posts, that most film in this category run on average @ 18fps,

yet camcorder and/or capture unit grabs it at 24fps? I have seen other

brands online that have either a switch to toggle between 18-24 or a variable

speed control, but I haven't seen what that control tops out at. One was 14-

22fps, which is close, but it makes sense ( I could be wrong ) that if it was 24

(or 23.97fps) that would eliminate the "strobe" or "flicker" effect. I have/use

anything from a simple Nero program, to Vegas &/or Premiere to edit in post,

but with what I have now, it looks better just playing it on the projection

screen.

Do you have any suggestions or products that can fill this request without

spending $1500-$3000 on a machine that has a camera and dvd burner

already built in?

I've seen everything from shooting it on a screen/wall/piece of paper to

making a lens out of a webcam (which looks very in depth) and was just

wanting to get thoughts on both process and products.

Thank you in advance for your assistance, and moreso for such an

informatiable site!

Sincerely,

Dave

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 30, 2015, 01:25 PM:

Welcome, David. This phrase : " I am under the assumption after
reading various posts, that most film in this category run on average @ 18fps, yet camcorder and/or capture unit grabs it at 24fps?" is not clear to me. What kind of "category" are you refering to ? Usually, films taken by amateurs with a camera are at 16 fps in 8mm and at 18 fps in super 8. Silent studio films are usually projected at 18 fps and sound films at 24 fps. The only rule is : does it look on the screen ?

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on March 30, 2015, 02:14 PM:

Thank you Dominique for the fast reply.

Sorry, I'm still learning syntax here [Smile]

Thx for being patient.

Let's try this:

I tried to use a Bell&Howell Mx33 dual 8 film projector which can switch from 8mm &/or super 8. I lined it up with an Ambico telecine box (the $25 one just to start) and lined up a Sony Hi8 Handycam Vision camcorder on a tripod. The camera was connected to my computer (8gb Ram) and did a test run just using a simple capture program via Nero 2014. Considering this isn't top of the line gear, the picture thru on the Ambico wasn't too bad, but since the film projector is running either 16 or 18fps depending on what type of reel I have on (8mm or super 8) the capturing program is grabbing frames at 24fps... so obviously, there is a huge strobe effect. (hence, like you said... How does it look?)

Horrible! lol

After researching around, I see there are other projectors that have a variable speed control, but everywhere I look online, I can't seem to find any postings for projectors for sale that say (example) "this projector can operate at 16-24fps depending where you set the adjustible speed control"

I saw one that said it operated between 14-22fps. I also saw a recommendation that you should run the projector at 20fps...

My ??, or confusion is:

Wouldn't you want the projector and the camcorder/capture program to be at the same fps ( I "assume" lol that would be 23.97/24fps) and that would get rid of the stobe n flicker effect.?

No matter what, I def. need a different projector, but not sure what to get. At 20fps you would lose around 10%, but it's supposedly not noticable to the average viewer. That being said (or stated online) at 22fps you would only be talking 5% loss?

Hope that makes a bit more sense... and wondering if Chinon 2000-3000 models can fill this for the time being.

I'm more an audio engineer, and learned on old 4 tracks and now using reel to reel 1/4 decks to transfer and restore using ProTools, Cubase etc... point of that. If I can learn the mechanices of the basics, then it will help me down the road with more sophisticated equipment and just a great building block to start out with in the film world of it.

thank you again!

Dave

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 30, 2015, 02:36 PM:

Dave, Your "Strobe effect" comes from the incompatibility between the "Shutter frequency" of the projector and the "field rate" of the camera.
A NTSC camera (USA) has a frame rate of approximately 30 per second, which gives a field rate of 60. The projector has a shutter frequency of "FPS x 3" for a 3 blade shutter. If you run the projector at 20fps, this produces a shutter frequency of 60, which matches the camera.... and the flicker/strobing will disappear.
Obviously, a film shot at 16 or 18fps will appear fast in your capture, and one shot at 24 fps will appear slow. Having captured your film, you then use an editing program to digitally restore the correct speed.(Yes, it DOES work!!!!)
Martin

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 30, 2015, 02:44 PM:

You are correct in that you need to sync your camera shutter speed to the speed of the projector. Older cameras such as yours do not have electronic shutters or "syncro scan" features so you will need a projector that has variable speed capabilities and can project both film sizes. The projector should be described as having variable speed, and ideally this is done via a rheostat. You would also want a projector that has an inexpensive halogen lamp. A good choice that fits these requirements is a Sankyo Dualux 2000H. There are others that will work well also. For a very detailed description of any projector you might consider, go to the Super 8 database at this address: http://www.super8data.com/
Once there, click on the projector icon (third from the left) on the top of the page. Then click on the brand you want to check out. Then click on the model number. You'll see a picture of the model and all the specs. Make sure it says variable speed. Copy down the lamp letter designation (EFN for example). Go to ebay and enter those letters and the word "lamp" and see that there are many listed and generally not priced over $10.00. You do not want a projector with a lamp that is obsolete and very, very expensive. The Chinon models you mention use a CXR lamp that will likely cost at least $30.00 each.

Other forum members will likely chime in with other recommended projectors. Janice Glesser has used various different projectors for transfers and will likely chime in also. She knows her stuff. Good luck.

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on March 30, 2015, 03:56 PM:

Last edit! lol 5:06pm

So, with a variable speed projector, can I assume if you are doing 8mm (16fps) and/or Super 8 (18fps) that the variable speed control will base off of each independent setting? Let me try and reword that...

Example: If I am in 8mm mode and let's say the "middle" is set at 16fps, would I have as much leeway (below or above "middle=16fps" and the same at 18fps (super 8)... ugh. I know what I want to explain, but it's not phrasing right.

Can I get to 20fps to capture at NTSC (60fps) on either setting or is there any loss of quality

Sorry everyone, I'm trying LOL

Martin!!! TY so much. I knew it was sub-dividable someway, but that cleared it up! very simple to do, but apparently there is a fine line between clever and stupid, me being on the latter! ty again!

And Barry, thank you as well for the info. Being new on this end, knowing what needs to be done and trying to explain it without the proper jargon was rough, but this help out tremendously! You both rock the mic!

Dave

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 30, 2015, 04:29 PM:

David, I'm still Learning English ;-) I would recommend you to read what members like Janice do for transfering. You may find some answers suitable for the American system.

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on March 30, 2015, 04:43 PM:

IK ga ervan uit dat Nederlandse?? Of in het Frans?

Je engels is prima! IK wist niet dat 8mm was strikt 16fps en super 8 was 18FPS ... noch heb IK beseft dat het geluid op 24fps. IK ging ervan uit dat mijn apparaten voor het digitaliseren van 23,97 NTSC dat ik nodig had om 24fps naar 24fps lijkt logisch, maar Martin en Barry uitgelegd dat als je sub-delen door 20 fps zou overeenkomen met 60 die NTSC opnamesnelheid. Wat u zo vriendelijk zou willen zijn om me in principe "brandt de zekering" en nu begrijp ik het compleet! Niet slecht voor een touring gitarist LOL TY!

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 30, 2015, 04:55 PM:

Ik denk dat in Brussel uw beste weddenschap Nederlands zou zijn .

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 30, 2015, 05:04 PM:

David en Thomas, bedankt voor uw woorden in nederlands maar ik ben franstalig ;-) Ik ken natuurlijk een beetje nederlands maar engels is gemakkelijker voor mij :-)
David and Thomas, thanks for your words in Dutch but I'm French-speaking ;-) I know of course a little bit Dutch but English is easier for me :-)

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on March 30, 2015, 05:12 PM:

Apparemment, j'aspire à la fois ! Lol

But I will get better at all this as time goes by!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 30, 2015, 05:32 PM:

You learn every day ;-)

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on April 02, 2015, 08:44 AM:

Hi dave, if your projector has a DC motor, then you could add a speed controller to it if you can use a soldering iron.

Which projector do you have?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2015, 03:09 PM:

Hi Pete, just sent you your requested docs. Just let me know mate if you didn't get a full set. I will have another go if not.

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on April 02, 2015, 03:21 PM:

Thanks Andrew, They are coming down now.
BTW, I usually use wetransfer.com for sending a bunch of docs etc. at once, it has a 2GB limit and is fast and you can drop whole folders to it.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2015, 03:29 PM:

I'll try that Pete, if I have to do more. These are forwarded Pete so some of the messages may not make sense to you.

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on April 02, 2015, 05:31 PM:

hey Rick... yes, it does have a DC mag. motor in it. Bell & Howell MX33 I'm very curious now") Thx

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on April 02, 2015, 07:03 PM:

Rick??

I'd have to find a manual for the MX33, but you could drive the motor directly with an inexpensive (under $30) speed controller.

Alternatively, there may be a speed-adjutment potentiometer on the motor control board inside the projector.

Posted by David Thomas (Member # 4770) on April 03, 2015, 11:33 AM:

Thanks again to everyone on here! It's been more than helpful

Any other suggestions, ideas, websites to start with?

Pete & Andrew brought up ideas I wouldn't have thought of (obviously) I also saw things from swapping out bulbs with LED's which makes total sense (as to not melt film) all the way to attaching webcam's inside (or a different) lens and skipping the whole telecine route all together. I'm fairly handy when it comes to basic wiring, but rebuilding a projection motor or knowing exactally what types of lenses, distances, lighting, etc I know very little besides rule of thirds LOL

just anything along these lines. Thx again, everyone have a killer weekend!

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