This is topic Beaulieu Stereo Mag Head Wiring Verification in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 23, 2015, 08:31 AM:
I will be looking to replace my Magnetic Heads shortly on my Beaulieu 708el CD Stereo.
I have already several of these to replace them with.
for those that have done this work and purchased the magnetic heads from Wittners or from other sources, please study the following photographs and let me know please if you can answer my set of questions after the photographs please.
Then an inverted photograph just to give a better view of the points I am raising:-
and now the replacement type heads:-
and another view:-
Looking at my first two photographs it is clear to see that the cable entry into the Woelke 464 Mag Heads is "clustered" or grouped together. The cables then disappear inside the head shell without being able to tell which colour cable goes to which terminal on the magnetic head.
On the new type heads that are fitted to the Bauer Studio Line projectors, the cables go to a plastic socket which just plugs into the terminals on the Magnetic Heads as seen in the last two photographs.
So here are my questions:-
1/ What do the Markings at the end of the Woelke 464 coding stand for or mean?
There are "SA", "RS" "RK" and "R" variants from what I have seen.
2/ The cables are coloured Red, White, Black & Yellow
Please can someone use my lower two photographs to identify which terminal lugs receive each of the coloured cables with the Woelke 464 logo to the front of the magnetic head as fitted?
Any help, as always will be gratefully received thanks.
I would of course, be asking these questions to Wittners also ordinarily but unfortunately they are currently closed while away on holiday.
[ June 25, 2015, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Steve Carter (Member # 4821) on June 23, 2015, 02:04 PM:
That's a different sound-head configuration Andrew, with the heads at the bottom, rather than the heads at top with pressure plates below...I watched a video of this projector to see it in action, very nice indeed...
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 23, 2015, 02:20 PM:
Yes Steve it is opposite to all other machines i have ever used. Works well thoigh for cleaning purposes etc.
Just need someone with some answers now hopefully.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 24, 2015, 11:51 AM:
Anyone? Surely someone has changed a head out on one of these before now? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on June 24, 2015, 12:26 PM:
Hello Andrew
To be honest I was surprised to see you needed to change the heads. I have owned three Beaulieaus in the past and the heads were never a problem.
Are you replacing them to cure a specific sound replay or recording fault?
Kevin
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 25, 2015, 02:45 AM:
Hello again Kevin and thanks for the info, much appreciated.
I am quite surprised to hear from owning three of these, that you've never needed to change a head.
Mine is still ok for the time being, but on certain films, there is a definite difference in the upper frequency range on the narrow track 2 vs the main stripe on track 1.
I've experienced the very same thing on the Bauers after time and as you know, these use the same Magnetic Heads.
I've replaced the worn ones in the Bauers some time ago now and the difference is clear.
While I cannot justify taking the Beaulieu heads out just yet, I feel it's something I need to prepare for and therefore I have replacement heads ready to be fitted for when the time comes.
I am just needing the information in preparation for when that time comes and was hoping someone here would have done the work in the past and could therefore answer my questions.
If I am flying solo on this one, I will try and get my answers from Wittners when they are back from holiday.
Nice to hear from you again Kevin and take care pal ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Steve Carter (Member # 4821) on June 25, 2015, 04:24 AM:
Andrew have you tried demagnetizing the heads, when I was using 8 track studio tape machines, I had to do this quite regularly, it does make a difference to top end, and as you say it's only the balance stripe head, it makes me think of this, as they are both getting equal wear, just a thought...
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on June 25, 2015, 12:50 PM:
Steve, the balance track wears out faster than track 1; also, because track 2 is so close to sprocket, any ondulation of the stripe area will cause faulty recordings/playback after wearing has started on these, because proper head to stripe contact will become next to impossible to achieve, as wear increases.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 25, 2015, 12:58 PM:
Thanks Steve, yes I do do this periodically but in this case, it is the beginnings of wear I'm afraid.
I've had these same symptoms on at least two other occasions on these heads and it is typical of what happens on nearly all Stereo Magnetic Super 8 heads, where the balance does wear much quicker than the main just because it is far narrower and therefore has a far smaller overall surface area on the balance track side to the one on the main track 1 side and also as Maurizio points out, the fact that it's close to the drive sprocket on the balance track side.
On these, it does seemingly, take many years of use to manifest but as my machines do get quite a lot of use in a relatively short period of time, it's only to be expected that my machines will need replacement heads and maybe even motors from time to time.
I've been lucky so far however, ive still to change any motors on either of my Bauer machines or the Beaulieu
--------------------------------------------------
...................................................................
Maurizio, do you have the answers to any of the questions above?
Ironically I was running the Bauer briefly this morning and it suddenly struck me that the erase head on the T610's has the same coloured wiring to its head, not the 464's, just the erase head.
From back(main)left to right, to front (balance) left to right, it goes... White, Red, Yellow, Black.
I am hoping this is a standard as the wiring colours are identical and therefore I'm also hoping its the same format as used on the Beaulieu Woelke 464 heads?
Hopefully all will be revealed soon, including information regarding the last letter codes printed on the heads.
[ June 25, 2015, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on July 25, 2016, 01:15 AM:
High Andrew,
I have replaced Main Head , a long time ago, 25 Years, on the "Older" Stereo 708, for a one offering same technical feature (BOGEN?) , so what, it was not necessary to make adjustment on the Electronic Sound Card.
In a same operation , I renew the Nylon head skates and I noticed uneven wear for these.
Moreover, I assume it is very important to install new skates associated with a new head as a set ( Like when you replace brake discs on car always with new shoe-pads systematicaly)and controling the contact pressure too.
Also, some Super 8 movies "Low Cost" categories (Hefa, Piccolo,etc...), showing irregular Mag Strip (Liquid Strip Origin ?) are terrible for heads (And film path too).
Did You keep the former head and observed the wear shape with a magnifying lens?
Was the wear slightly offset ?
Let me know......
Phil
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 25, 2016, 02:19 PM:
Hi again Phil.
It's still hanging in there Phil thanks.
It did show symptoms of deterioration on the balance side of the head fairly soon after I got the machine running correctly in the early days, but since, it hasn't gone any worse at all.
I have everything to hand for when the time is right and I will have this head re profiled to extend its life as a spare, but for the meantime, it still performs satisfactory.
I also have,and will obtain more of the vital nylon pressers you speak of.
I agree that both should be changed out when a new head is fitted to ensure the very best contact between stripe and head tracks.
Many of the balance tracks are so narrow when pasted in places and misaligned, I've found you can really only judge the heads performance fairly by using with a known decent recording made on a pre striped stock film to gauge whether or not the balance side of any mag head, is performing adequately, or indeed in need of changing.
I am still unsure of the wiring configuration to each of the four pins on the head, so any help and information on this,I'd be most grateful for Phil to use as reference in the future sometime. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Also Phil, I've so far never been able to find out what the different variant lettering on the heads themselves mean.
I.e. SA, Rk, R, RS etc
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on July 25, 2016, 02:35 PM:
Hi Andrew,
Well, I think there are many thing to develop around the Head Subject.....
I am away for many days from now, but I 'll Check what I did .....25 years ago !!!!
I kept the former head, as I was thinking reprofiling was possible.
If this is the case this is a great new.......
There is a procedure in Beaulieu service Manual to set the head to the sound card for 708 EL mono (To get the max performances).
That needs electric measures (If I remember), unfortunately, this is far from my knowledges at this time.
An other subject to follow......
Phil
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 25, 2016, 02:53 PM:
Yes indeed, and as said any information on those head code references or wiring colours to each of the pins...
I am all ears.
Otherwise come the time, I'd have to sabotage a perfectly good rubber gromit going into the head shell, to find out for certain.
There are several companies here in the UK that can and will still re profile magnetic heads Phil.
They also send you back a test report for each head after their work.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 27, 2016, 05:39 AM:
Nice to see recently Wittner's (Beaulieu.de), are now adding even more spare parts for these fine machines, to their range!
I noticed recently these include the rear cover, something someone here was trying to find a year or so back, as well as erase heads etc etc.
Well done Wittners!
Keep up the good work.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on July 27, 2016, 03:27 PM:
Including heads, even the erase head:
http://www.beaulieu.de/pages/s8_wzub1.php?rubr=s8_wzub1
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 27, 2016, 04:13 PM:
It's just great I think that you can still get hold of all of these brand new essential parts.
I've got video projectors made 25yrs later that now run totally unsupported by their manufacturers.
Beaulieu may have sold the lot to Daniel, but they certainly knew how to look after their customers with the necessary spares!☺☺
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on August 16, 2016, 01:25 PM:
Hi, Andrew. I am sorry only now I have seen your questions which you addressed to me as regards contact wiring.
Unfortunately I wouldn't have been able to answer, perhaps it might be possible to determine which wire is which with some trial and error practice, once detached from the original head. If you touch one of these wires unconnected to a head, you will get a very harsh noise from the loudspeaker: check on the vu-meters and there you go. Not very professional - I know - but I have no other idea at this point.
PLUS.... the good news is one day I might have this same problem: I have just cut a deal for purchasing one of these fine projectors (supposedly in very good working order - I hope it's actually the case) and I am eager to grab its main selector knob ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
By the way, where can I download an Italian or English manual for the 708 Stereo?
Oh, yes the lettering on the sound heads... Do not know for sure but the "SA" designation might stand for Sendust Alloy: at least this is the case with Elmo's head... But this is just a guess. Perhaps some French or German member might clarify, hopefully.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 17, 2016, 02:30 AM:
Great news Maurizio regarding your latest acquisition! I'm certain it will become a firm favourite of yours in no time.
Good news also then, surrounding the sound heads, if they are indeed Sendust alloy for the SA variants. I have a few spares of these.
I will try changing the nylon pressers soon just to see if that makes a huge difference or not.
At the end of the day, whatever differences I noticed in the beginning regarding the slight loss of high frequencies from the balance side, certainly hasn't got any worse now over time and is very dependant on the actual film itself.
Some play just as well from track 2 as from track 1, so I just think think a lot of it is down to slight misalignment from one original track 2 recording to another here.
I don't suppose we can always expect perfect tracking and alignment from something only 0.4mm wide!
Least of all when some are pasted and wavy and even patchy at times!
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on August 17, 2016, 06:34 AM:
Thanks Andrew, for the prediction...
And I agree with you Re tracking capabilities of S/8 tracks. I guess one should always record a sound test film on any new projector to keep as reference whenever a doubt arises concerning head wear/misalignment over time. Which is what I usally do and will do on the 708.
Best of luck with the pressers replacement.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 24, 2017, 05:47 AM:
I am bringing this thread back to life to show a fellow collector and another Beaulieu enthusiastic owner, the original magnetic head coding on my own machine as illustrated above in the photographs earlier.
I asked the question at that time of what the last two identification codes stand for and unfortunately I never got a definitive answer.
So I will put this out there again now in the hope that someone like Kevin Clark or Phil Murat here etc etc, could perhaps answer this conundrum now with any luck?
Here are some of different ident codes to be found as the last two letters referencing the magnetic heads.
SA, Rk, R, RS etc
Any ideas guys?
My original type are FK 464 R and FK 464 RK btw.
The R is the monitoring head.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 24, 2017, 09:25 AM:
Hello Andrew,
Even if the theorie for Mag Head is quite simple (Coil plus air-gap), the only thing I know is during "playing" this is a Voltage fluctuation which is traduced.
During "Recording" this a current fluctuation which is traduced....
Then a Mag Head dedicated to "play" only can have different performances than a Mag Head which is used for "play & Record".
A "play & record" head is a compromise design.
May be this is the reason why "Woelke" references are FK464R for "Monitoring" and FK464RK for "Play & Record".
Anyway as this is Super 8 (this is not HIFI), and I assume both head are interchangeable.
May be using "Monitoring" head in place of a "Play & Record" head leads to a loss of signal power during "Recording"
If this is the case, that could mean during playing the signal level could be higher than a "Play & record Head" (To be confirm by an Audio specialist.....)
I have already replaced the "Play/Record" head during the 80/90.(The 1st Beaulieu I have bought as a 2nd hand machine ,had played one movie feature a day for 2 years !!)
I bought interchangeable items (BOGGEN ??) from a small compagny specialized in Mag heads for any systems (cinema, audio, computers, etc....). So what I installed is a bit different from genuine one, but i can't ear any differences at this time.
Concerning wires colours (for my new head):
First set (RED/BLACK) is for main track
Second set (BROWN/GREEN) is for small track
BLACK & BROWN are supposed to be connected to ground.
For FK464, Yellow and White are connected to the ground.
[ August 25, 2017, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Phil Murat ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 24, 2017, 09:50 AM:
Thanks Phil but on mine at least, you only have Red, White, Yellow and Black cables going into the head.
Red and White are bound together as are Yellow & Black but the two are kept separated until entering the head shell.
No Brown or Green coloured cables exist on my Stereo model above.
Are yellow & Black therefore used for track two do you think in this application as would certainly appear to be the case?
I have these same heads removed from a Bauer machine that have idents RS and SA also?
The ones sold by Wittner from original Beaulieu stock were advertised to be fitted to either Bauer or Beaulieu machines regardless.
What you suggest above also then makes me ponder over how any design differences would manifest themselves in the make up of these heads between a straight playback head and a record/ playback head.
Different thickness of coreplates perhaps?
Different number of coils or different thickness of copper wire used maybe?
Different sized air gap perhaps?
One answer leads to many more questions with most things scientific.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 24, 2017, 10:03 AM:
At this time , this is what you have (This is from 708 EL, but ST is almost the same).....
and Schema ST ......
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 24, 2017, 10:05 AM:
Yes that's it Phil, wiring as exactly the drawing suggests.
The drawings though, still doesn't make it clear how the cables are actually configured to the heads in each case. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 24, 2017, 10:15 AM:
Andrew, an other idea :
While playing any movie on your machine, head cover removed, so terminals, wires and connetors can be reached.
You take a small screw driver and just make a snap contact on any of red or black treminals. the one who make noise is connected to head #1......
What do you think?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 24, 2017, 12:08 PM:
I will find out visually thanks Phil, come the time as I will remove the outer case to gain access to the head terminals to remove the head.
I was just curious to find out in advance the configuration but no one seems to know for certain.
It's just a shame I cannot find out what all the tags mean on the end of the head codes.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 04:22 AM:
All we seem to know so far is that RF is a recording / playback head while R coded heads are just designed to be used as playback heads as in their monitoring duties for the machines these are fitted to.
Still leaves RS and SA 464 heads unanswered for though sadly.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 25, 2017, 06:51 AM:
Hi Andrew,
For my information, where did you report "SA" & "RS" ?
If this is on Beaulieu's, What are the models (means, HTI, Studio, etc....)
If they come from any of these models which were producted untill 90's, that could be some uprated Heads showing improved performances.
Also, tell me if these heads (RS, SA) are showing a plastic body (inside the metal cup).
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 06:58 AM:
Yes they can have removable plastic inserts for use with other machines other than Beaulieu, Phil,.. and no I have not seen these types fitted to either of my Beaulieu machines, just my 3 Bauer T610's (but not always these two types of head).
I wouldn't know what type is fitted to the later HTI or Studio models Phil as I simply don't own one.. (yet )
Perhaps someone like Alan Rik who does own one or two of these models could take a peek at his heads and reference their codes for us all here?
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 25, 2017, 07:07 AM:
Does they look like this :
This is what I installed 25 years ago on my first Beaulieu.
And works pretty good.
There is "no name" written on the cup. It is supposed to be "BOGEN" style
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 07:23 AM:
No Phil, they don't, they just look the same as any other 464 type head and have the Woelke logo printed on them with the ident coding 464 RS or 464 SA after the Manufacturer Ident.
They are all original heads.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on August 25, 2017, 07:38 AM:
I can take a look once my projector arrives back from Germany. Its in transit now.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 25, 2017, 07:42 AM:
Just an other information Andrew, I had to replace the guide plate below during head replacement due to some extra wears on pins and somewhere else.
Once pins are worn, you can experience loss of sound quality .....
HEADS GUIDE PLATE
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 07:54 AM:
Cheers Phil, that is something i hadn't previously considered given that this component is metal!
I'd only considered the "Pressers" being worn, as a reason to change out any other component associated with poor sound reproduction from either track other than of course, the actual heads themselves.
Top tip Phil thanks and once again, the power of the "collective" surfaces within hours of stating as much.
Thin washers or shims fitted beneath this plate would sufficiently counteract against any wear to the pins and still should leave the film path "safe".
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 25, 2017, 08:04 AM:
Yes Andrew, this is metal but mainly brass (plate and pins)material, to stay amagnetic of course.
Unfortunately Chromium "flash" coating is a very ordinary quality. This is not Hard Chrome Plating quality.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 08:10 AM:
I have to say Phil, neither of my own look like the colour of that one there. I will grab a few photos of them later fitted in place.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on August 25, 2017, 08:14 AM:
The "yellow" colour is due to missing light (no flash light).
This is actually "white" chrome
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 25, 2017, 08:37 AM:
Ah, ok then Phil, they are probably identical then in their appearance thanks.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 04, 2017, 09:22 AM:
Has your machine arrived back with you now from Germany Alan?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 05, 2017, 06:45 AM:
????
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 05, 2017, 08:41 AM:
Hanging out in customs looks like. Because of the weight they must think it's an IED!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 05, 2017, 12:00 PM:
Thanks Alan and can't wait to hear you have it back, safe and sound and practically perfect in every way.
Once you've had chance to make up for lost time I'd really appreciate it if you could reference your head codes for us all please.
It would be interesting to see if they differ in any way on the later models.
(No pulling apart necessary for any of this btw)
Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 06, 2017, 08:49 AM:
As regards differences between record and playback heads, I once read in a very much aknowledgeable audio magazine, record playback heads have narrower gaps than playback only heads.
In the case of S/8, though, it should be noted the PB head and the Rec head are actually the same to retain the standard 18 frame image-to-sound separation, the monitoring head only being used during recording for checking final quality in real time...
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on September 06, 2017, 10:32 AM:
Hello Andrew,
PM sent.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 06, 2017, 06:45 PM:
Thanks Phil & Maurizio, much appreciated.
The playback only head was the monitoring head in this case Maurizio as it is never used to record anything, only to monitor sound after recording has already taken place so it's positional placement as I understand it is unimportant except to say these heads cannot be utilized as a record / playback head by swapping the two over.
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