8mm Forum: Earliest super 8 sound projector?

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 17, 2015, 01:57 PM:

What was the first model to come out and when ...

(... and as to the "when" question, no answers like, "Right after the first super 8 sound film came out", nyuk nyuk!)

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 17, 2015, 02:20 PM:

My guess would be that there wasn't anything earlier than the 1970s since that's when Kodak brought out their cartridge cameras and established the standards we still go by in S8 sound (for better or worse...)

-but here's the Kodak M100:

http://www.van-eck.net/itable.php?lang=en&size=0&cat=film&merk=91&type=Instamatic M100

-dated 1965.

If this is accurate it means that there was at least one Super-8 sound projector as soon as there was any Super-8 at all.

(I don't think we'll be finding a S8 sound machine dated 1964 or earlier: there wasn't any film for it yet!)

What's interesting about this is I've always thought the reason that we are stuck with that short 18 frame separation between picture and sound on stripe is because that was as much as they could manage in the Kodapak camera cartridge. If that's the truth, it means they already had the sound cartridge system roughed out something like 8 years before it hit production.

It also would mean that the first Super-8 sound projector was meant to show commercial prints and not home movies. I've always had the idea the package movie business was a side effect of people shooting 50 footers of Aunt Bertha's Garden Party, but just maybe that's not really true!

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on November 17, 2015, 03:26 PM:

I think Eumig brought out the Mark S sound in 1965. That was my first sound projector and I loved it. It was partly a slot loader as once past the gate you had to stop the projector and feed the film in the slot where the sound heads were.

Graham S

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on November 17, 2015, 03:38 PM:

Wow. 1965 sounds really early.
Wikipedia says this about the sound film date, so it seems the projector may indeed have predated the film?:
"The original Super 8 film release was a silent system only, but in 1973 a sound on film version was released. The sound film had a magnetic soundtrack and came in larger cartridges than the original because the cartridge had to accommodate the sound recording head in the film path. Sound film also requires a longer film path (for smoothing the film movement before it reached the recording head), and a second aperture for the recording head. Sound cameras were compatible with silent cartridges, but not vice versa. Sound film was typically filmed at a speed of 18 or 24 frames per second. Kodak discontinued the production of Super 8 sound film in 1997, citing environmental regulations as the reason (the adhesive used to bond the magnetic track to the film was environmentally hazardous)."

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on November 17, 2015, 03:45 PM:

The Eumig Mark S sound had a valve amplifier in it. Also had the old Eumig power lead, not the later kettle lead. Not sure when super 8 mag sound films were available.

Graham S

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on November 17, 2015, 03:48 PM:

That's a good observation Graham!
According to Kodak themselves, "In 1973, Super 8 film was made with a magnetic full coat strip on the side of the film that made it possible to record sound along with the image."
So mag film was 1973, but we have earlier sound technologies!

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on November 17, 2015, 03:53 PM:

Matthew,
I think kodak is referring to Camera film only for their cartridges.

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on November 18, 2015, 08:09 AM:

It seems sound for film, in general, has been around for quite some time:
http://www.cinematechnologymagazine.com/pdf/dion%20sound.pdf

Here is some history from up near me here in Canada. It gives the sense of the scene at the time:
"Kodak introduced super 8 film in 1965, then super 8 sound film in 1975. In 1975, many young artists, again at OCA, were holding super 8 parties which led to the publicly-funded, annual Toronto Super 8 Film Festival (1976-1983) held first at OCA, 100 McCaul St., and Cinema Lumiere, 290 College St.. It joined an international network of super 8 festivals, so super 8 people came from around the world. Lenny Lipton projected his 3D super 8 films. Many local films were shown, but these festivals were dominated by "industry-envy" films."

It is interesting to me that any Super 8 sound machines existed BEFORE the first super 8 film was made?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on November 18, 2015, 08:55 AM:

The detail we are missing is what was the state of commercial 8mm sound print making around 1965. For example we know that R8 picked up sound somewhere along the line and that there were R8 sound projectors back before Super-8 came out.

I'm guessing Kodak was thinking about a strong commercial print industry long before sound home movies came out, otherwise why be bothered with bringing out a sound machine?

What's interesting is that one of the plans Kodak had for Super-8 was TV news production. They thought the small, lightweight cameras would be friendly to shooting on location. This was at least part of the thinking behind developing the 200 foot cartridge.

-obviously it never caught on, but it's interesting to think about what it would have been like and what it could have caused in terms of development of the technology.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 18, 2015, 10:26 AM:

Mathew is correct. Apparantly, magnetic sound has been around a good deal shorter time than I expected.

Optical sound super 8 features, were already being manufactured as of 1967, (for the airlines), so optical sound was about earlier. That's not really a surprise, as there were optical sound 16MM for many years earlier. it would be natural for manufacturers to use the available technology when adding sound to super 8.

Posted by Thomas Dafnides (Member # 1851) on November 19, 2015, 03:18 AM:

I believe Super 8 was used for broadcast news in some European/ Asian countries including the BBC on some level. Occasional super 8 clips (amateur footage) could be seen on U.S.A. news. Saturday Night Live (USA TV show) in the early 80's used to broadcast a popular segment utilizing a puppet shot in Super 8, "Mr. Bill". Later, when it was shot in broadcast video , it lost all its charm .
The TV journal program, 60 Minutes, sometimes utilized super 8 in undercover operations overseas, where pro cameras where not permitted. I can also recall seeing an ultra low budget comedy feature film on USA Cable that was shot on Super 8.
Kodak in the 60's, envisioned Super 8 not only for news but as the future format for localized cable TV production that would sweep America in the 70s. Portable Color video cameras in the early 70's were expensive (the cheapest over 10k... inflation adjusted) with poor picture quality.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on November 19, 2015, 05:05 AM:

It is not a surprise that sound projectors had been available before sound cameras as it was the case for other gauges. There had been dual gauges from the begining of super 8, so I think that as sound was available on standard/regular 8, super 8 could not have been only silence to encounter commercial success. It is said that super 8 had been used by some Italian TV channels. Maybe an Italian memeber could confirm or deny this information ?

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on November 19, 2015, 05:31 AM:

Graham
When you mention the Eumig Mk S that was a Std.8 only sound projector. I think the Eumig 709 was the first Eumig dual guage sound projector which was a bit later than 1965. It had interchangeable gates and sprockets for each gauge.

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