This is topic Did Derann ever disapoint you? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 01, 2016, 07:46 PM:
The praises of Derann's print quality are all over this forum, and for the most part Derann became the bench mark of Super 8mm print quality. But not always. There were occasions when I was severely disappointed in the product I received from them. Three in particular come to mind:
The feature length American In Paris was probably the worst. I was expecting a glorious pin sharp print similar to Singin In The Rain, instead of which I got a soft focus print which w as even more blurred and washed out over the whole length of the right side of the film, and the sound was atrocious and impossible to re-record. Plus the editing was a hack job which ruined the whole pacing of the film.
The honors for runner up goes to the feature length black and white print of Dead Of Night, the superb Ealing Studios horror film anthology. Or should I say the grey and white print, because that's the way it looked throughout, with soft focus and washed out highlights. This film also had dreadful sound quality.
Third place goes to the 400ft Three Cheers For The Girls, a great compilation reel of some of Busby Berkeley's lesser known musical routines. This film is another 'grey and white' dupey print with poor sound.
None of these films should have been up for sale by Derann, but they were.
Any others?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 01, 2016, 07:59 PM:
Once pre striped stock dried up and Derek then within a few short years met his maker, things became very very different Paul, no doubt about that.
However, then again in Derek's lifetime, he solo crafted through sheer determination, that striped stock of some kind kept coming through to the punters via £10K of scrap Polyester film and was able somehow to find another UK Lab after losing the superb Rank Labs in Bucks!
It was a minor miracle of Derek's sheer determination that we got anything at all once the "big" 2 pulled away from producing Agfa and Kodak Pre Striped Stock!!
Time caught up with them all in the newly aroused Digital era sadly!
If Derek had lived until now, even without the energy or inclination, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would have had the pursuasive powers to have made Kodak realize what a void of a lifetimes work they have, until now, left behind themselves and completely turned their back on!
Derann and Derek in particular, from all of my understandings, kept our 8mm alive way beyond what anyone else was prepared to do so far as investment was concerned.
We should have no complaints given the outcome of circumstance as we know now!
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 01, 2016, 08:42 PM:
Paul,
You said American In Paris was feature length, but you also commented on the editing. Can you please clarify?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Thanks
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 01, 2016, 08:50 PM:
My son had DVD of classic Mickey Mouse cartoons, and one: "On Ice" caught my eye.
Derann had it available new so I paid the full Code "E" (£25.99) and got back a film with colors like it was 40 years old on E-bay from someone's attic!
Gary Brocklehurst told me the negative was the problem and it was the best they could do, but by the same token they refunded me and reimbursed me for the return shipping too.
The big disappointment wasn't a technical one, kind of a communications...thing.
I come to this a lot later than many here: I got into sound in 2002. I'll only have one brand new projector my entire life and only one brand new feature too.
I had been lusting after a print of "Toy Story" ever since I found out it was possible to get one. One Christmas my wife decided to surprise me. She ordered it in September just to be sure.
-Christmas morning there was a shiny box under the tree...with an IOU for my print!
Come about June, a hefty package was on my porch!
It had finally ARRIVED...except it really hadn't!
I threaded "Toy Story" up and found myself watching "Hunchback of Notre Dame"!
("WHAT THE....????!!!!")
I was afraid: "What if I LIKE this movie?! Will we wind up buying TWO features??!!!" (-Clever sales strategy!)
(Fortunately I didn't, especially not that much!)
Once again: Derann didn't leave me hanging, they made it right in the end.
My very last brand new print arrived from them 260 feet on a 200 foot reel! The head of the film was a good half inch higher than the flanges and that first time through the machine had the feel of walking a tightrope! (How they jammed it into a 200' box I have no idea!)
-So they weren't perfect, just like the rest of us. Even with that I wish I could do it again!
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 02, 2016, 01:16 AM:
Nope
There service was second to none.
I once bought a second hand print from there second hand list "Once Upon a Mouse" had it for a couple of years, but I was never that happy with the sound track. I contacted Gary and offered to pay "as it was an old second hand print", if they could re-record the sound track. I sent the film to them and within a couple of weeks it came back with "perfect" sound. Not only did they do this for me, but refused to charge me for doing it and the return postage....brilliant. I did once buy a new print of "Motor Mania" the picture quality was stunning. I phoned Gary to say thanks for the stunning print but a pity its got no sound ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
. Sent it back and again a few weeks later, it came back with an excellent sound track
I must say, I do miss Derann films and in particular dealing with Gary, either over the phone or as in the case, in later years the internet.
Posted by Del Phillipson (Member # 513) on February 02, 2016, 03:49 AM:
NO, end of, without Derek & Derann super 8 would probably have died out years ago. Yes maybe sometimes prints weren't as expected but when you saw the process in which they were made you can forgive that, plus they were a great bunch of guy's too.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 04:46 AM:
Steve, it's a cracking film, you should have bought both! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on February 02, 2016, 04:58 AM:
Derann did a Great Job: From my side ,this is the best rate Quality/Price ever seen. Perry was very good too. Contact with Gary was excellent. They were very professionnal, it was easy to exchange a print or a reel if a problem occurs. The only think I never solve completly is the quality problem of Reel Nr3 from "Little Mermaid" (Some funny light shadows appears from time to time, otherwise this is a very good copy, look like to be stable , 25 years later!!).
80% of my collection come from Derann from 1985 to 1995 (from memory) and is polyester base.....
Congratulation to the Team and Perry's Too !!!
D. KEMPSKI copies were "probably" the best due to a great negative source, but price was very High.
Very stable colours many years after, very sharp pictures, serous Lab job.
In comparison, products from "Film Office" offer a quality much more fluctuating, due to laboratories Job and Negative sources.
Many "Film Office" movies fade out and turn to pinky.
"Les Grands Films Classique" were much better than Film Office, but more specialised in Classicals (Great Copies from Charlie Chaplin features - Don't miss them- , also "Drole de Drame", "l'Auberge Rouge", etc...are great)
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on February 02, 2016, 06:31 AM:
Did they ever disappoint me - only by closing down!
Mind you I did laugh at the label price of the last (50ft) trailer I bought from them - £80 for Hello Dolly, it was less than that for each 600ft reel of the feature. Ged didn't charge me that, of course.
Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on February 02, 2016, 06:36 AM:
In all my years of buying from DFS i can honestly state that as a company who sold films DFS never disappointed me.
Sometimes the quality of their prints did but this problem was always resolved in some way.
Just before they closed i bought the feature of THE CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN from them. It was the last remaining copy.
Unfortunately it had a serious lab fault with the colour.
Ged gave me a full refund instantly.
Yes not all the product they sold was "perfect" but i was glad to put up with an "acceptable" amount of defects that were down to the masters used.
I really miss DFS and all the team.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 02, 2016, 12:54 PM:
I've been told the measure of character is not never making mistakes, but taking responsibility when you do.
They always did whatever it took to make things right when there was trouble, and more than that when a choice had to be made they usually worked things out in my favor.
Gary was just a generally decent guy to deal with. I told him I needed a really faded print, but with a decent stripe to work out recording with a projector.
-he sent me one free and insisted on it too.
I said at the time they closed that they changed this hobby for me. I could ignore the scattering of sound prints on E-bay, but when I found out about them and saw their catalog of brand new sound films there was no way I was sticking strictly silent!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 01:13 PM:
They changed the outlook towards the hobby of anyone who regularly dealt with them I bet.
They made the hobby so exciting with the type of releases they put out, and 9 times out of 10, the quality was superb also.
The stock and quality of their prints in the late 80's to mid 90's was unbeatable in many many cases.
Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on February 02, 2016, 01:16 PM:
Re An American In Paris/ Wasn't this a Ken Films release originally? And a few of their full features were not quite full features.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 02, 2016, 01:16 PM:
Only towards the end, but it was something that, quite frankly, Derann could really do nothing to avoid, and that was that dreaded, very bluish LPP film stock near the end, (Fantasia 2000 was a victim of it) ...
but in every other aspect, Derann were truly top notch! I always LOVED they're used film lists as, when they said color was so/so, it was actually pretty darned good, but by Derann's standards, only so/so. That's how good Derann was and ever-will be!
Posted by Simon Balderston (Member # 5106) on February 02, 2016, 01:21 PM:
if it wasn't for derann we would not be having this chat because film would be dead by now
Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 02, 2016, 01:32 PM:
Though not your intention Paul, this thread is a nice trubute to a great company and fine gentlemen.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 02, 2016, 02:11 PM:
I'm glad it's turning out that way Barry. Clearly Derann had a very satisfied customer base, and the complaints were few and far between.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 03:28 PM:
I think they did have their fair share of complaints Paul from what I have read and learned over the past few years, but as Steve pointed out earlier, it's they manner in which they dealt with those complaints that made them the special company we all realize they were here.
Nobody was ever given the cold shoulder with a valid complaint from my understanding.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 02, 2016, 04:37 PM:
A company like that has a special relationship with their customers: very few people buying something from a seller who could probably make a lot more money doing something else.
-it takes a little patience and understanding all around to keep everybody going.
What they did couldn't have been easy, especially later on as the resources available to produce new prints got kind of thin and the production equipment became worn and irreparable by normal standards.
-a few bumps in the road were bound to happen. I'm still glad I was along for the ride!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 04:48 PM:
10k of scrap film stock tells us all it was nigh on impossible at times Steve!
Can you imagine anyone else sitting back at the end of each day of failure, allowing this kind of money to slip away, having the motivation to go again the next day?
It took someone as passionate and determined as Derek clearly must have been to keep it alive through to the noughties and then slightly beyond.
Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on February 02, 2016, 05:36 PM:
As someone who is new to this hobby, if it were not for Derann, I would probably be spending my time watching beet red digests if it were not for Derann.
I`ve been able to aquire quite a few secondhand Derann prints and their quality is great.
I do feel disappointed with my Derann cutdown of Gremlins. I cant describe my exact problem with the print. I guess the source negative wasn`t the best.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 05:52 PM:
It should look fabulous. The quality was on par with the best from that era.
Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on February 02, 2016, 06:02 PM:
When you bought a title at a premium price then went to a convention and they had it a some ridiculous silly low price or the other old classic you bought a brand new print sealed in cellophane and when you opened it there was a splice on the leader. When queried with Mike Dimmock how this could be he replied aw you got one of the good ones aren't you lucky!!!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 07:36 PM:
Rough with the smooth Mike.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on February 02, 2016, 08:33 PM:
Very few disappointments. Of course the disappointed email.."Our apologies but film XXXX has been sold. " That was never fun! And it happened about 80% of the time for me. I kept thinking the list must be released a few hours before in the UK and then released to the rest of the world...ha ha!
I got a print of "The Fog" which was soft focus the whole way through. Returned it. Then I had a new print of Grease Scope and reel 7 had bad audio. They replaced it with another reel 7 but that one was only a little better. 100 Years of FILM by AFI which had the most muffled audio I have ever heard. I just didn't feel like sending it back because it would have cost at least $25 to do so. And that was it. Everything else was great and if it wasn't for Derann.. I would never have gotten back into the hobby. My first purchase from them was "Beauty and the Beast". Sent with a nice note by Mr. Simmons.
And I fell out of my chair when I saw the image. I knew then I had to get another GS1200 as I sold mine in 1993 when I thought Super 8 was dead.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 02, 2016, 08:40 PM:
95% for me Rik when I had a baby on the way and could only really ever look at the 2nd hand lists!
You were one of the lucky ones my friend with that success percentage rate!
Great story regarding B&TB BTW! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 02, 2016, 09:31 PM:
The one that really blew me away, and still does, is their scope feature length print of Grease. I have some reservations about super 8 scope, but this print is just a complete knockout and looks glorious on the scope screen. Probably my most prized film print.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 02, 2016, 10:56 PM:
quote:
I kept thinking the list must be released a few hours before in the UK and then released to the rest of the world...ha ha!
Actually we Eastern Time Zone Canadians and Americans were in the best spot in the world to be a Derann customer. I think they sent out the list at 5PM GMT, just as they were ready to go home Friday night.
-meanwhile here we are 5 time zones back and it's lunchtime! Back in those days I always packed a lunch on Friday and ate it with at least one eye on E-mail!
Buy a couple of films and celebrate over lunch!
(-yet another nice thing about Friday!)
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 03, 2016, 12:11 AM:
Before we ever had a computer, I used to get the news letter by mail. It was always exciting to read through all the bargains and when I phoned Garry "late at night out here" mostly I would hear the word on the numbers I was to quote...gone ...gone.....gone..."but" or a rare occasion it was we still have it ..much to my surpise.
The good thing about this, was because the news letter arrived weeks after everyone else and many times I missed out on everything, strange that it might seem. I was relieved that I missed out and that the $$$$$ would still remain in my bank account then it was...how is the weather Garry etc etc.. a bit of "chit chat" before hanging up, they were good times.
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 03, 2016, 04:31 AM:
My memories of Derann were happy ones. Great guys and a great pleasure when Derek used to call in if passing our house for a chat.
Posted by Paul Suchy (Member # 80) on February 03, 2016, 07:54 AM:
Gary was very good to me; his replies were always prompt and cordial. There were times I couldn't believe how fast my prints got to the US! By the time I began ordering from Derann, I learned quickly that the stereo tracks were going to be muddy and would need rerecording, but I accepted that. Gary always offered a return on defective prints, and my first spool of A Bug's Life ended with 2 minutes of sound with no picture. The postage cost to send even a single spool back was huge, but of course, this was hardly Derann's fault (they were way over there and I was way over here). For what Derann accomplished, it was well worth any minor inconvenience. Most of my "good stuff" is from Derann and I am grateful for that.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 03, 2016, 08:23 AM:
It is true to say in many of the later films, without the ability to record them ourselves when necessary, customer returns and complaints may have risen drastically.
As Paul quite rightly points out, many collectors simply accepted that they may never receive perfect sound quality prints towards the end, but were simply grateful they were there to be had at all.
Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on February 03, 2016, 09:18 AM:
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 03, 2016, 12:35 PM:
Oh! That happened to me quite often Alan! I would immediately, upon getting the used film list, e-mail my order, but most of the time, the film was already! That is, of course, none of Derann's fault.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on February 03, 2016, 03:13 PM:
I'm sure they all worked to the idea that it is cheaper (and better) to keep a current customer who would come back and recommend you to others than find a new one.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 03, 2016, 04:37 PM:
Brian
My thoughts were, that sure, you can be nice to your customers for them to come back, but I feel it was more than that. People like Gary were genuine caring people, who were a reel delight to deal it. Its like when I worked in the cinema, you can tell staff to be nice to the customers and that works fine, but also you find certain staff, who don't need to be told that, and have a "genuine" and friendly approach.
Its more in there nature to be like that, and are the ones that really stand out. Those front counter staff that are like that are worth there weight in gold... for any employer
Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on February 04, 2016, 05:36 AM:
Like everyone else,Derann had their hits and misses,qualitywise, in the earlier days (remember,they were issuing films since 1965).They did issue complete features,especially in the earlier std 8 days and later did issue abridged ones,(i.e. 4x400) and generally, quality was good although DEAD OF NIGHT was unanimously rated from "C" to "Z"! AN AMERICAN IN PARIS was a Ken release and for some unknown reason was released minus 17, or so,minutes. When Derann bought the negatives from Ken and Red Fox when they closed down in the mid eighties,plus struck the deals with Fox,Disney and the others and started using low fade film,quality rose to an all time high! Of course,again, an occasionally bad print is inevitable. My print of AMERICAN from Derann,from the same abridged negative, is exellent.I also have a rare complete optical sound version which is not so good,but this is another story!
Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on February 04, 2016, 02:43 PM:
I can remember a time when I must have been a right old pain in the butt to Derann.
I bought the 4x400' version of THE DEVIL RIDES OUT complaining about the side weave on one of the parts. I returned it 3 times.
They sent me a letter stating they had watched the said reel on their Elmo GS 1200 projector and it was found to be okay. They were of course correct as the problem was printed through from the master used.
It was just me expecting to much as an "over fussy" Cinema Projectionist. They even sent me a free trailer reel for this hassle of my own making. Oh happy days and what a great bunch of guys.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 04, 2016, 04:37 PM:
They were all like that David
Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on February 06, 2016, 07:26 AM:
Hi all
Deat of Night 4 x 400 WAS atrocious - I returned that very quickly.
Paul, I too bought American in Paris from them in 84 - I am sure mine was not an original "Derann" release,(possibly Ken) as it came on 5 x 400 in a very nice grey PVC case. It was slightly soft focus but not too bad - it was edited though the whole of the Oscar Levant orchestra piece was missing. Sound was good though.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 06, 2016, 12:31 PM:
Hi Mark,
Just like my print, which also had the whole Oscar Levant sequence missing. Plus some other bits cut out as well. Whatever editing they did seemed to destroy the film for me. Like having a hamburger without the pickle!
Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on February 07, 2016, 01:57 AM:
Only hick-up I had was when I brought from their 2nd hand list a copy of the 3x400ft QUO VADIS, when it arrived they sent me 3 copies of the 1x400ft version!, they gave me a credit for the amount I paid and told me to just keep the film/s, I used the credit on my next order
Pat
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 07, 2016, 11:53 PM:
Sadly yes with Halloween - I now have a worthless print because most of the mag is gone. I desperately want another, because mine is essentially a scope , beautifully colored silent film....
Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 08, 2016, 07:44 AM:
That's where EVT Mag used to come in handy as they would over stripe film. I had a good old Perrys go thin and they laid another paste over the top. To this day its still holding. I liked them and helpful as well.
What was the name of that other optical printers over here Colour Technique was it? They were great blowing up some of my Std 8 to S8, we so miss these small businesses for one off jobs.
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on February 09, 2016, 05:48 PM:
Dino, with a GS1200 you can lock to a DVD soundtrack. Imperfectly in the wild, frame-accurate with some prep work and a sync box.
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on February 09, 2016, 06:21 PM:
But didn't Pedro and his sync boxes disappear
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 09, 2016, 10:23 PM:
quote:
But didn't Pedro and his sync boxes disappear
Dino, you can use a today's computer to replace Pedro box. Alan Rik mentioned it in this thread: GS1200...sync box....
So it saves a lot of money.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 10, 2016, 01:43 AM:
Easier still, use modern day VJ or Editing software on your pc to match the speed of your video file to your PJ rather than trying to match your PJ to DVD / video file.
Far easier this way around and continents and varying video format frame rates on Pal, NTSC etc, make no difference using this method!
Better still with a hardware tactile controller added on for adjusting the tempo right down to fractions of a percentage.
[ February 10, 2016, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 10, 2016, 06:34 PM:
I'm a bit disappointed in THE MALTESE FALCON. Overall, below average picture quality for a B&W film. Some scenes are better than others. This is a 2-parter, and the framing is different on the 2 parts, so when you edit them together, you have to ride shotgun with the projector, with one hand on the framing knob. You also have to re-arrange scenes from each of the 2 parts to get them in the right order. The result is so-so -- the digest doesn't make as much sense as it should unless you are familiar with the full-length movie.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on February 11, 2016, 05:28 AM:
Talk on another thread about spares machines reminds me of this. I bought a Sankyo 301 from them at a BFCC as not working thinking it would be good for any future repairs to the one I use. All that was wrong was the rear hub for the take -up spool was missing. Now if I have a fault on the main machine I don't know which one to use for spares. So much worry for the £5 Ged sold to to me for
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 11, 2016, 08:27 PM:
Pulled out and watched my copy of THE SEA HAWK, another 2-parter. Picture quality is a little better than THE MALTESE FALCON, but not as good as it should be -- so Derann disappointed me a little with this one, too. One good thing, though, is that all the scenes are in the right order. Bad thing -- the narrative doesn't flow that well. You really need to be familiar with the full-length movie to know what is really going on.
I've also noticed that these Derann B&W digests don't run that smoothly through the projector -- the image jitters up-and-down a bit, even after a cleaning with Film Renew. Was there something unusual about their film stock?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 11, 2016, 09:17 PM:
That will be your projector running Polyester not a film stock fault 9 times out 10.
Make appropriate adjustments to fix.
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 11, 2016, 09:21 PM:
Andrew,
How do I know if it's polyester, and what do I need to do to adjust?
Thanks
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on February 11, 2016, 09:25 PM:
If it's later Derann, almost certainly it's polyester.
Acetate is far more "forgiving" through the gate of most mal aligned projectors because it's simply twice as thick.
Bear this in mind when you next service your machine.
It is always about depth of penetration for any of these traits regarding S8.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on February 12, 2016, 03:30 AM:
The only 2 ways I know to tell if it is polyester are 1. Film cement won't join it 2. It won't easily tear it just stretches (try on off-cut of leader/run out only).
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 12, 2016, 03:52 PM:
Thanks -- are those Warner Brothers B&W classics later or early Derann?
-------------
Update: it tears, so it's acetate.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on February 12, 2016, 05:57 PM:
I think they started about 1977/8 but were still being printed in 1990 (they were in that catalogue but not all in the 1987 one), so they probably printed on both stocks over the years. The early ones were in the big "clamshell" cases, I'm not sure how long they lasted.
Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on February 13, 2016, 03:29 PM:
Yes, 2 of the 3 I have are in clamshells. The other came on an 800 foot reel w/o original boxes.
Posted by Marc Marti (Member # 404) on February 14, 2016, 10:28 AM:
Point your reel to a light source. If it's opaque is acetate. It it's translucid it's almost surely Polyester.
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