8mm Forum: What should I expect to pay for Wizard of Oz?

This is topic What should I expect to pay for Wizard of Oz? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 13, 2016, 08:44 AM:

I used to have a (I think) Red Fox print which was a little grainy but I'd love to add a Derann print of this to my collection, what sort of price should I be looking to pay?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 13, 2016, 08:57 AM:

If you can find a Derann one Stuart (not an easy find), I'd expect to pay at least £300 plus for one in superb condition with original leads, tails, spools and boxes.

The screenshots I've seen of this print look absolutely superb and didn't appear over grainy to my eyes, but I've never owned one.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 13, 2016, 09:03 AM:

Thanks Andrew!

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 13, 2016, 10:05 AM:

PM SENT STUART.

Posted by Paul Suchy (Member # 80) on March 13, 2016, 01:47 PM:

Beware of later Derann prints, Stuart. The lab work is not the best and my print has a blueish tint that is OK in the color portion, but gives the BW sections a very odd look. Also, the mag stripe bleeds into the image from time to time. I was probably one of the last to purchase The Wizard of Oz from Derann and I'm sorry I didn't have the chance to get an earlier print.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 13, 2016, 02:01 PM:

Yes, I recall issues with the mag stripe on some of the prints I bought from Derann, stripe coming away as i ran prints, and sometimes errant stripe down the middle of the print! I'm also not a fan of that blueish tint that later Derann prints always had.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 13, 2016, 02:14 PM:

Never had Stripe encroach the middle of the frame Stuart, but I have seen it many times encroach upon the frame from the balance stripe side in the form of a slightly annoying wavy line.

When witnessed, I try to crop the frame ever so slightly to get around this.

I have learned to live with the bluish tint on many of the later non animated films so long as the colour is vibrant.
It's often a compromise on one thing or another with the later the prints released I've found.

[ March 13, 2016, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 13, 2016, 03:10 PM:

Probably a daft question but how do you tell the red fox from the Derann print assuming you don't have the original box? Was it marked on the leader?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 13, 2016, 04:14 PM:

It's more difficult than that anyhow Tony as the Derann prints came from the same Red Fox negatives.

Same with Kempski, so I have no idea on any of my Kempski or Red Fox features whether or not they are originals or Derann later prints, to any degree of certainty.

What I can say for the Red Fox prints, is they were often originally produced on 400ft reel length parts.
Therefore if original, and now on 600ft reels, you'd expect a splice after each 400ft length.

This may not be the case for Kempski prints but is definitely the case for many Red Fox features.

Whether or not Derann released the Red Fox ones on 400ft parts or not, I cannot remember without looking through old catalogues again though.

I would imagine any that Derann released would show a fair amount of negative wear of one kind or another by the time they got them.
If the print is nigh on perfect, I'd be guessing its almost certainly an original.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 13, 2016, 04:41 PM:

By the way what happened to Derann's negs? Destroyed?

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 13, 2016, 04:43 PM:

Sadly yes, buried I think.

Best Mark.

PS with patience you should pick up a nice one for £125-150 staurt.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 13, 2016, 04:59 PM:

Well I have a print of This mounted on 800ft reels. Must fish it out

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 13, 2016, 05:09 PM:

I will take one too at that price Mark! [Wink]

In recent years, I've certainly never seen a decent Derann print of Oz sell for this amount. Wish I had though.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 13, 2016, 06:30 PM:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=005312

Not so long ago.

Best Mark.

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on March 13, 2016, 08:45 PM:

Cost: Bring me the broomstick of the wicked witch of the west.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 14, 2016, 03:55 AM:

Watch for iffy prints Stuart. We have had a couple here over the years were the colour has gone sad to say. [Frown]

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on March 14, 2016, 04:02 AM:

Mark Todd. how right you were. i remember that item for sale. there are sensible prices about for these items.just have to bide your time.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 04:45 AM:

Yes,well remembered Mark, in that it was Ian selling at this price.probably up for sale for less than half an hour! [Smile]

)

I still stand by original statement though, for one in the condition described by myself in the first place,and not from Ian, you won't get much change, if any from £300.

I would take note of Lee's comments here, he is spot on!

If Ian came across the King & I Derann print, I'd guess he would advertise it for sale for £200 or less.

There is one up for sale at the moment on e bay uk, all original and untouched and undamaged everything's!

Let's see what this one ends up going for shall we,as an indication of what I am saying here!!😨😊

[ March 14, 2016, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 14, 2016, 06:01 AM:

I think it would do the hobby good for prints to get back to sensible prices, as the silly prices keep any possible newbies absolutely out of the hobby as we know.

Only the old stuck with it in thier veins lot can cope with paying prices like good stuff goes for now.

It even applies to old faded tat that should be going for pennies or free even.

At least B+W has stayed sensible over all.

Ians a fair, nice bloke so keeps it a bit more real.

It would have been far better if people hadn`t taken Derann for granted and the silly money now being paid for 2nd hand prints had gone to them for new ones. Oh well.

Mutter mutter.

Best Mark.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 06:08 AM:

I agree with you there on all counts Mark!

However, as I keep saying to my good friend Vidar elsewhere when he mutters similar noises, whether we like or not, these prices are here for a while yet given that everyone left in the hobby are all seeking similar titles all in pristine condition.

It's the price you have to pay sadly for their owners doing the right things by these type of prints.
The only "bargain" ones I find of top titled prints have quite a few bad faults on them.

I keep saying to him nowadays, like it or not, these are the prices we are forced to pay and "You're either IN or OUT" nowadays.

It's just the way it is unfortunately for the very best that remains.

http://www.ebay.es/itm/LARGOMETRAJE-SUP ER-8-MM-4-X180-RLCOLOR-EL-MAGO-DE-OZ-DERANN-/172117993010?hash=item2813082632:g:3AgAAOSwwPhWlFSS

http://www.ebay.es/itm/LARGOMETRAJE-SUPER-8-M M-3-X180-RLCOLOR-COMANDO-DERANN-/172125554537?hash=item28137b8769:g:M~cAAOSwoBtW3bs1

http://www.ebay.es/itm/FEATURE-SOLD-SUPER-8- MM-SPEED-SPAIN-SOUND-DERANN-SCOPE-/172126619709?hash=item28138bc83d:g:LtIAAOSwqrtWpWMp

[ March 14, 2016, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 14, 2016, 06:24 AM:

Agree with you Mark I do, 8mm feature prices off the radar they are with vintage faded films also upwards it seems. I know we have recently seen an influx of new collectors which is great but at what cost?
Owd Yoda.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 14, 2016, 06:26 AM:

Thats bonkers, should be about 200E tops especialy privately.

Got to all fall flat sometime soon surely as its unsustainable as the machines get older and we in to it crowd fall off our/thier perches.

Pass me the Blu Bay please as the 3 kids need some shoes etc and that includes the older one whos on a few pence just over minimum wage and a low hours contract.

Its such a shame for the hobby. My eldest who is older and 22 would love to be more in to the hobby big time but simply can`t, he just does it a bit through/with me.

Shame there isn`t a HD to super 8 direct option so new prints can be affordable and actually probably look better too.

Mutter mutter !!! again.

Best Mark.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 14, 2016, 06:52 AM:

Same here Mark, it is a great shame but like you I believe the dip will be upon us before we know it. The main thing now is to enjoy what we have and can enjoy those wonderful 8mm films however small or large a collection we have. For me daft as it may seem I get the greatest pleasure getting out my original little 40+ year old Eumig instead of my lavish Elmos, banging on a vintage 8mm cartoon from my youth which still is enormous fun and watching it on our screen.

We should not overlook the excellent work Reel Image have done with the new releases and our beloved Classic, a shop we can pop into and thumb through some 8mm films even today. Its nice Classic stock new short 8mm film releases and we enjoy those as and when they become available, plus the visits to the open days and the cups of tea. [Smile]

You are also right about the prices OZ used to go for Mark typically around a hundred pounds possibly due to the colour shift risk as I experienced.

Classics next open day is Sat 22nd May 2016.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 06:53 AM:

[Big Grin]

Sorry Mark, it's just a sign of the times, for now at least anyhow. [Wink]

The best equipment out there btw, is going nowhere anytime soon.
I think I can get at least 20 to 30 years yet from my equipment and the vital spares I now have.

Anything well preserved has to come at a cost. It always has done in any aspect of collecting.
It's the least a discerning owner of these films deserves in my opinion.

As one collector regularly points out to those who feel these prices are unacceptable for the Well Preserved prints,
If you factor in inflation since the 90's and the price these were new, the prices really aren't too bad at all!

I'd say Star Wars and the recent laughable price of an offered Silence Of The Lambs print, being only one or two exceptions.

Even Derek himself, said "now was the time to cash in on our prints" all those years ago.
Blu Ray wasn't even invented when he said it! It hasn't made one jot of a difference to those who love the guage.

If anything, prices paid since, have soared!

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 14, 2016, 07:19 AM:

Someone's just mailed me this on fleabay 281892263373
Knock yourself out Andy [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 07:21 AM:

Bargain! Get it snapped up Mark. [Big Grin]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2818 92263373?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D281892263373%26_rdc%3D1

And you said Super 8mm was too expensive! [Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on March 14, 2016, 07:23 AM:

i find it quite laughable when i see films going for silly money, be it 8mm or 16mm. i know the some collectors get a kick out of the fact that they have paid a vast amount for their treasured purchase. in this day and age with digital giving what it does i myself personally would never pay stupid prices . yet its the ones that do that make it the way it is.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 07:26 AM:

Still waiting to see those screenshots Paul from your pals.
£80 bargains...bring em on, everyday of the week.
That's what I say!! [Wink]

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 14, 2016, 07:28 AM:

Well, I shall save my coin for the BFCC [Smile]

who knows what bargains might be had!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 07:30 AM:

It remains to be seen Stuart. Good luck though! [Smile]

No doubt Ian will have one or tasty titles for you. [Wink]

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on March 14, 2016, 07:36 AM:

maybe i have hit a nerve there Andrew. lets put it this way. when many see or hear of someone paying stupid money for a film be it 8mm or 16mm. there will be several who are wishing they could have it. but believe me there are far far more saying must have more money than sense.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 07:41 AM:

It's not for everyone Paul, it never has been. But those visiting here, it's the reason we are here, simply because we love our films. Not our DVD's or Blu Ray's ..our films above all other formats. Or else people wouldn't pay it, it's as simple as that.

It has nothing to do with how much we pay for them. I couldn't care less about the price, so long it matches my expectations.
I can usually find myself far more disappointed buying a £10 short that is a pile of crap once I view it, than I ever can if I pay £300 for a decent lovely well preserved top titled feature.

As for raw nerves Paul, no not at all, I think it was highly commendable and charitable the prices that you passed those films onto your closest collecting friends.
After all, you could have made yourself much much more.

We just love a good screenshot that's all!

Cannot wait to see them one day here or elsewhere.

Posted by Paul Barker (Member # 4318) on March 14, 2016, 07:48 AM:

love 16mm. put it above dvd/blu ray in the pleasure i get from it. i get great pleasure from both. just like you yourself have stated many times. but still would not pay silly money. as i said its those who are willing to pay high prices that make it what it is. simple as.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 07:49 AM:

As said, it's not for everyone Paul.

It wasn't for me when the kids were young. That's why I sold it all once.

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 14, 2016, 07:58 AM:

Same here Andrew, difference is my kids are still young! (6 and 1). However, Polly my eldest ADORES cartoons and rather have her watching Boomerang for hours on end I wanted to show her how I used to watch them. She finds it fascinating so it's encouraging me to maybe invest a little more in the hobby as funds allow.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 08:00 AM:

Let me know what cartoons you are seeking for your little ones Stuart.
I am certain I have some nice ones I could pass on to you, if you like. [Smile]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on March 14, 2016, 08:04 AM:

That Jedi print has green emulsion scratches!? [Eek!]

Ridiculous.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 08:11 AM:

Ha ha ha, well spotted Rob!

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 14, 2016, 08:29 AM:

Andrew, that's lovely! She's a big fan of Road Runner (here's a picture of her birthday cake made by her mum).

She also loves good ol' Bugs and Tom & Jerry (just like her dad!). I've shown her how to lace up the projector too.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 08:31 AM:

I don't have Road Runner titles (most have faded sadly) but I do have dozens of Tom & Jerry. Give me a few days to see what I have duplicates of etc and I will mail you a list Stuart.

I can and will post screenshots here or over on the other place for you first so you can decide if you like them.

Its a great thing you are doing here Stuart introducing classic animation to our next generation.

Get yourself a Beaulieu and I will gladly lend you some stunning Disney features for them to watch.
Only a Beaulieu though! Ha ha ha. [Wink]

Well done Mum btw...terrific cake! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 14, 2016, 08:56 AM:

Cough !!! Cough !!! Cough !!! etc.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 08:59 AM:

I thought the cake looked very nice Mark! [Big Grin]

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on March 14, 2016, 09:33 AM:

I wish I still had my 708, Andrew! (And my prints of Beauty & The Beast, Little Mermaid, Lion King etc). And Mark - shall I send you down a cupcake? [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2016, 09:36 AM:

[Big Grin]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 14, 2016, 03:47 PM:

A NEW PM SENT STUART.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 17, 2016, 03:58 PM:

I've dug out my copy of Oz which is on 3 800ft reels so I am guessing 400ft lengths suggesting it might be red fox. Colour is very good but the black and white reel has a war,er tone (not unpleasant) for the first 3/4 of the frame and is colder for the last 1/4.

I think the B/W section is sharper than the colour part from what I have seen so far. I will upload some screen shots

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2016, 04:04 PM:

Lovely print tony!
I do like the Red Fox features for their saturated colours.
They always appear really vibrant compared to many others.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on March 17, 2016, 04:42 PM:

It's my least favourite film! So it will be going up for sale. I will need to list it either in the right section here or on eBay I suppose. There is some light wear in places but nothing bad

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2016, 05:16 PM:

It's a favourite of many though Tony, you'll have no issues at all finding it a new home! [Wink]

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