8mm Forum: Problems with striping cine film

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Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 11:10 AM:

I have been attempting to stripe tape onto my Standard 8mm Kodak 25 cine film and am having problems with getting the tape to stick to the film. I purchased some striping cement from a firm in Germany, wittner-cinetec. I am using Agfa striping tape and am using a Balfour Rexette stripe machine. All seems to go ok but the tape is not being cemented to the film. The stripe cement is labelled for acetate film so I am at a loss to understand what the problem is. The tape appears to bind to the film correctly but then when it is pulled through the projector gate it comes apart from the film. I wonder if the cement is of a different formula and, perhaps needs a longer time to set? Anyone have any ideas or have had similar problems? Thanks Tim

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 22, 2016, 11:23 AM:

Hi Tim,

If I have all prety understood, in summary, the stripe do not stay stuck anymore on the support.

Did you lubricate this film in the past ?
If film has been lubricated with silicon mixture, be advise that silicon lubricant is very, very difficult to remove, even with strong solvant.
If this is the case , it could be the root cause of the problem

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 11:49 AM:

Thanks for the reply. No there is no lubricant on the film. I think that it is the cement but am not sure how to check. The cement looks fine and is in a sealed bottle. I am writing to the firm in Germany to see if they can add anything to this. Unfortunately Balfour closed down may years ago so it is not possible to obtain striping cement from them.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 22, 2016, 11:56 AM:

Tim, I have exactly the same problem you have. I discussed this with someone who knows much regarding technical things. He told me that the temperature matters, stripping should be done in a hot environment. Another man told me that sunlight makes a "chemical" reaction (with the rays) that helps the stripe gluing. I haven't tried since I had these tips so I cannot tell if it really improves things but that's what I was told.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 12:00 PM:

Dominique
Many Thanks for the suggestion. I must admit that this is a cold time of year, so that could very well make a difference. I will try again at a later stage when I can ensure that the temperature is higher.

Tim

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 22, 2016, 12:33 PM:

Hi Tim, you might have the wrong stripe for the cement your using. There is Agfa f5 and acetate based stripe which is for home striping. I thought the Agfa f5 is polyester based stripe. The Agfa is light brown in colour, the other is darker brown I believe.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 12:52 PM:

Hi
Yes I am using Agfa and also Superstripe, both home striping tapes. I wonder if that is a problem. They are both brown, the Agfa looks a bit darker. Not sure how I can check. I assumed that the acetate referred to the cine film, not the striping tape. I did not have a problem with the Balfour Rexette cement and it did not state acetate or polyester. It is definitely for home striping as it comes on small reels that are used in the Rexette machine. Maybe I should ask wittner-cinetec what sort of tape their cement is made for.
Thanks
Tim

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 22, 2016, 01:02 PM:

Hi Tim, don't take this the wrong way, but are you putting the tape stripe on the right side up ?, dull side up, shiny side down, just a thought, as the base is the same material as the film, and the paste is just rust basically.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 22, 2016, 01:18 PM:

Tim and Paul, I tried both sides (strip and film !) to be sure. The trouble is that when used on the right side, the stripe is glued but when the stripped film arrives on the next guide, the stripe goes away.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 01:29 PM:

Paul and Dominique

Hi. Yes I have made sure that I am striping on the correct side of the tape/film. I did successfully stripe films many years ago and only recently thought that I should do the rest. The problem was obtaining the striping cement. It took a long time before I found the firm in Germany that sold the stuff. I guess that it could be the cement. Does anyone know of any other place where I can obtain film striping cement? I will try to stripe again when I can do so at a higher temperature as it appears that the stripe is cemented until it goes through the projector where it just unsticks.

Tim

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 22, 2016, 01:33 PM:

I tried with FFR cement. I don't know if it's the same Wittner sells.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 01:36 PM:

Dominique
Is FFR cement available still. I am not familiar with that. Is it something that you bought locally in France?

Thanks
Tim

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 22, 2016, 01:38 PM:

Hi Tim, I think there is a formula on the net for you to make your own up, 2 part acetone to 1 part dioxan. Google it Tim, I have it somewhere, I'll have a look for you.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 01:43 PM:

Paul

That's great. If you could find it that would be really useful.

Thanks
Tim

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 22, 2016, 02:03 PM:

Hi Tim, the last post is all its says about this, other than this can be used only with acetate based film and not poly film, that can only be paste striped. Not sure what doixan is or where you can get it, but acetone is just nail varnish remover, so that's easy to come by. How new is your stripe Tim, could it be that this is just too old to use now.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 22, 2016, 02:06 PM:

This how it looks like :

I bought it from a French site but it originally comes from Germany (FFR is German) ; I don't know if there is one manufacturer who resells to companies putting then their own labell or if there are several different makes.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 22, 2016, 02:19 PM:

Dominique
Looks very similar to the item that I bought. I got it direct from Germany
Paul
Thanks for the info. You are correct that acetone is easy to get hold of. I googled dioxan and gulped at the results from a health point of view. I will persevere with the current stuff and also see if it is possible to obtain dioxan.
Tim

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 22, 2016, 10:59 PM:

Hi Tim

I used the Rexette back in the late 1970s and to this day the stripe is still really good.

If I remember right once the stripe reaches the projector, its on for life. I used to give the film a good clean first...three passes over with cleaner on the hand winders.

It sounds to me that your cement is not the right stuff for the stripe to stick, are you using the projector at 18fps? and give yourself a bit of distance from the projector to the striper.

The Rexette is a brilliant striper to use, but once you start striping you cant stop as the cement applied by that little wheel with dry almost in a instant. I always liked the spring loaded "pressure roller" where both the stripe and film meet, keeping everything nice and flat. [Cool]

Anyway best of luck, hope things work out.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on March 23, 2016, 04:38 AM:

Likewise purchased my striper in the 70's and still going although my stock of bottled adhesive always stored in the lab fridge which I preferred over the Rexette type is getting a bit depleted. [Eek!]

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 23, 2016, 04:57 AM:

Many Thanks for the responses. I too think that it is the adhesive that is the problem. The firm in Germany, wittner-cinetec, have been pretty unhelpful. The purchase I made was just over two years ago and, you've guessed it, the shelf life is 2 years! Even though the bottle has been kept sealed and in a cool place. My suspicion is that the cement is not up to scratch. It would seem that Dominique has the same problem with the same cement. Does anyone have any idea where I can get a decent stripe cement from?
Thanks
Tim

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 23, 2016, 07:07 AM:

Hi once again. Thanks to Graham and Lee for their responses. I too have used the Rexette for over 40 years and have not had a problem before in the cement setting. The stripe usually sets very quickly in the time that the film goes from the Rexette to the projector. I did have a few drop outs of stripe over the years and have used splicing cement for small bits of stripe, by hand. I did find that this also took a longer time to dry that the striping cement. I have only recently embarked on using the Rexette again to attempt to stripe my remaining cine film. It took me a long time to find striping cement and now this does not seem to wok as well as the previous Balfour product. The only thing that I might explore is giving the adhesive more time to dry before it goes anywhere near a film sprocket/gate. I wonder if there is any additive that I could use to add to the cement to improve its setting ability. Not sure whether that would be acetone or dioxin. Any chemist reading this who might have an idea?
Thanks
Tim

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 23, 2016, 07:31 AM:

Tim, to be complete, I must add that the specialist I talked with told me that before he built a striping machine that has a kind of heater for the Wheel that put the glue on the film, he also experimented bad results. I haven't tried, yet in a warmer environment so I don't know if that would be a solution or not. I cannot see any shelf life indication on my bottle.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 23, 2016, 08:02 AM:

I think you have answered your own question Tim, the cement used although sealed has lost whatever was in it that binds the two parts together successfully through evaporation. Why don't you try shaking the bottle for few minutes to agitate the cement, might be just that, what have you got to loose, it's not working too well anyway, and it may solve it short term.

Posted by Heinrich Kronschlaeger (Member # 145) on March 23, 2016, 10:03 AM:

I own two sorts of striping tapes: one that is blue if holding it up against the light ( a lamp etc.) : I always think it is Agfa F5.
And another that is grey-silver if holding it up against the light: I think this is Orwo.
Some years before I bought real Agfa-F5 stripes at Wittner and Rinser ( in Munich- this shop is now closed ) and I got blue stripes as described before.
I read in a film magazine that Agfa stripes dissolve very slowly in strong solvent , but Orwo dissolves very fast. I tested this and indeed the blue one ( Agfa ) dissolves very very slowly, the other fast.
My experiences gluing stripes on the film:
I am using the machine Bolex DS 240, an excellent machine and I am doing this for more than the past 10 years .I bought the cement from Wittner and FFR. Both are equally good. Even cement that is 7- 8 years old can be used ( stored in a dark and cool room in an additional glass ). Before using the cement and the stripes I store them some days in a warm room.
When I use Orwo stripes I made the following experiences: Here in Austria we have about 240 volts and then after gluing I was able to pull the narrow track (0.45 mm) away again. The Bolex machine is designed for 220V! But if I use an adjusting transformer ( With it I can choose the alternating current from 0V up to 250 V ) at 215 volts, then the balancing track shows no delamination .
I also use Agfa F5 stripes -this had shown no delamination even when the Bolex DS 240 is operated at 240 V.
But I don`t know if I this contribution is helpful for Tim with his problem gluing stripes on film.
Henry

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 23, 2016, 10:50 AM:

Henry
Many thanks for the response. I did not think that the two years old cement was a problem. It has been stored, sealed and in a cool place. I will experiment with trying to carry it out in a warmer environment. I will also see if I can come up with a plan to let the film run for a longer distance before it goes through the projector sprockets/gate. From the comments kindly left by people I am convinced that it is the cement. As mentioned before, the Balfour cement had no problems under any environment and, like Graham mentioned, it was done over 40 years ago and is still solidly attached to the film. It would be interesting to see if there is an element that could be added to make it stick quicker.
Tim

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 23, 2016, 03:31 PM:

I have a Supersound striper, not used for many years, but I think their instructions didn't include having the recently striped film passing through the gate/claw but just under one sprocket then to the take-up spool.

I can't remember how it was done though. I was using a Eumig 710D.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 23, 2016, 04:42 PM:

Brian
I never thought of that. I guess your right, if I could get the projector to pull the film through without going through the gate, then it would have more time for the cement to set. Not sure how to do that but I have another avenue to pursue. many Thanks Tim
Just to let people know the response from the firm I got the cement off I copy the email correspondence:- The initial email is at the bottom and works up

I do not know.
This product was sold years before my time here at WCT and is not available any more since 2012/2013.
So it is expired in 2015 LATEST.
This is the only important information for you.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland
www.wittner-cinetec.com
www.beaulieu.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRA 4657 HL.
Komplementärin/Geschäftsführung: Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRB 6527 HL.
Geschäftsführer der Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH: Daniel Wittner

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: tim murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:18 PM
To: service@wittner-kinotechnik.de
Subject: RE: Problems with striping cement

Hi

I am still waiting to see where this information is shown on the bottle

-----Original Message-----
From: service@wittner-kinotechnik.de [mailto:service@wittner-kinotechnik.de]

Sent: 23 March 2016 16:15
To: tim murray
Subject: Re: Problems with striping cement

Hello,

it is 24 month after purchase.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland
www.wittner-cinetec.com
www.beaulieu.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRA 4657 HL.
Komplementärin/Geschäftsführung: Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRB 6527 HL.
Geschäftsführer der Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH: Daniel Wittner

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: tim murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:27 PM
To: service@wittner-kinotechnik.de
Subject: RE: Problems with striping cement

Hi

Thanks for the reply. I cannot find a use by date on the bottle. Can you point me to where the use by date is printed?

-----Original Message-----
From: service@wittner-kinotechnik.de [mailto:service@wittner-kinotechnik.de]

Sent: 22 March 2016 20:19
To: tim murray
Subject: Re: Problems with striping cement

Hello,

in which year did you purchase the cement?
In 2013?

In this case it is not good any more.
The shelf life is 24 month at maximum.
The deterioration did make it unusable meanwhile, I am sorry.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland
www.wittner-cinetec.com
www.beaulieu.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRA 4657 HL.
Komplementärin/Geschäftsführung: Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH, Sitz der Gesellschaft: Ammersbek. Amtsgericht Lübeck HRB 6527 HL.
Geschäftsführer der Wittner Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH: Daniel Wittner

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: tim murray
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:50 PM
To: service@wittner-cinetec.com
Cc: 'tim murray'
Subject: Problems with striping cement

Dear Sir,

Some time ago I purchased 2 bottles of Tonspurkleber Classic 100ml to use
for striping tape onto Kodak 25 Standard 8mm cine film. My colleague,
Manfred Stolz, purchased these for me and I have recently attempted t
‘stripe’ some cine. I am having problems as the cement is not ensuring that
the tape sticks to the film. I have checked and the cement states that it is

for acetate film, which Kodak 25 is.

The invoice for this was RE13282964.

Can you advise if I need to do something to ensure that the cement works,
please. I am using a Balfour Rexette striping machine which I have not had
any problems with before. The tape is being run against the film and the
cement is linking the two but it does not ensure that the tape is cemented
to the film. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Tim Murray

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 23, 2016, 05:36 PM:

Tim, with my striping machine, I don't use a projector to move the film and still had the same trouble you have so I'm not sure the problem comes from the way the film is moved (although the stripe goes out of the film at the first film guide but the machine has been designed that way so it would be surprising that could make things not work properly).

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 23, 2016, 06:08 PM:

Dominique
Thanks for the tip. I am not sure how best to proceed. I guess I will try to experiment with a short piece of cine film. Maybe see if a warmer temperature achieves anything.
Cheers
Tim

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 23, 2016, 06:13 PM:

Tim, I will go on Holiday on Friday so won't be able to try anything soon. The good thing is that after two weeks, the weather will be better :-)

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on March 24, 2016, 05:14 AM:

Dominique
Have a good holiday. I will update the forum when I have had some more experimenting.
Cheers
Tim

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 24, 2016, 05:37 AM:

Thank you, Tim. I hope we will be able to stripe our films.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on April 02, 2016, 10:55 AM:

Hi once again. I am still having great problems in trying to stripe my films. I managed to obtain some more original cement, thanks to a forum member, but I still get the same result. The cement seems to be applied ok and the tape is fixed to the film, but once it goes through the projector it just comes apart. It is almost as though it needs some more time to set before it goes through the projector, or it is not being ‘fixed’ correctly, but I have spaced the projector and rexette machine as indicated and have double checked the tape is being stuck on the correct side. I have tried two different projectors and different reels of tape. I am at a loss! When I used to stripe years ago the tape stuck firmly to the film before it even reached the projector gate. I don’t know what to try now. Has anyone any ideas, or does anyone know where I might get the films striped professionaly? Thanks

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 04, 2016, 11:01 AM:

I once had the same problem, using the glue and yet the strip still wouldn't stick. I don't remember the model, but Steve Osbourne sent me a lovely striping machine that I just couldn't get to work ...

I believe I forwarded it onto Dino Everette, and I think that he was able to get it to work eventually, but I don't know how he did it.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on April 04, 2016, 11:47 AM:

I wonder tim if anyone on the forum has used this new striping glue from your supplier recently and has had success with getting them to bond together for keeps. My thoughts on this are that whatever they have taken out of the glue for health and safety reasons is causing this problem, I think I would try adding a little more acetone to the bottle and getting some scrap film to try it on.

Posted by Tim Murray (Member # 4555) on April 05, 2016, 01:58 PM:

A note to say a big than you to Lee who gave me some good advice over the phone. The main solution was to place the projector and stripe machine a lot further apart. The Balfour instructions recommend 12" between the machine and projector and, when I striped film years ago this seemed to work ok. Lee suggested a distance of 6 to 9feet apart. This I tried and the tape stuck to the film ok. Many thanks to everyone for their suggestions, they have all been acted upon. One thing that I must do now is find a retailer that sells striping tape - any recommendations?
Dominique. Hope you had a good holiday. Do try spacing the machine and projector at least two metres apart, as suggested by Lee. It is a bit difficult to get used to but once it is up and running you are away and striping.

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