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Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 01:48 AM:
Hello,
After some time using my Chinon SS1200 I think it is time to upgrade to a better projector. I have read a lot these forums and internet in general but more I read more lost I am.
I had the idea of getting an Elmo GS1200 (Xeon or not Xeon?), but it seems that it has its own "limitations"...
On the other hand it seems that some Fumeo or a Beaulieu 708 could be a very good choice too. But I don't see specifically why (my fault, I mean likely I don't know enough). Strenghts vs weakness.
The only thought that seems clear is that film guides in plastic (like the Chinon) is not the best thing and they could finish by scratching the film. But at side of that I am lost.
Basically I want to project for small audiences (max 10 persons, usually 4 or 5), in 2 to 2.5 m wide screens (maximum!), usually a bit smaller. I have mainly Disney features coming from Derann.
I make dubbing for mono features using the compensation band, so dubbing capabilities and two "bands" or stereo sound is a must.
BTW, optical sound is really necessary?
So for me the most important, is maximum "guarantee" (counting on a good maintenance) of no scratching the film, good sound (recording and playing), and specially, a good transmission. I don't want to "play lottery" and burn a frame because of transmission is cheap.
Stability on projection (steady frame), good light output (see more below regarding Xeon, though), is also wished.
To begin with, I prefer to go to the best (or among/near the best) than to start looking into middle-quality projectors. A priori, I thought on expending up to 1000 €, but we will see (maybe is too much or not enough, will see).
Regarding Xeon or Hti (?) I am not sure. As far as I understand, its main advantage is more light output which is useful for bigger projections/audiences. On the other hand I am concerned about its colour temperature. AFAIK, some prints (like the Derann Disneys's) are done for projection with halogen/tungsten lights in mind, so I am afraid that using Xeon will produce a cold cast to the image. This is very important to me, I am really concerned (and I have quite in-deep knowledge) about color management in photography, and it is important to me. I have not seen here discussions about this color temperature potential issue, though.
Well, any advice from people experienced here will be very welcomed. Because, as you can see, I don't have too much experience/knowledge and I am afraid of going wrong if I decide too fast or by myself only. Thanks!
Edit reason: orthography
[ April 01, 2016, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on April 01, 2016, 03:31 AM:
Hello Miguel. The main advantage of the Fumeo and Beaulieu machines over Elmos is their reel capacity which is up to 2500ft (approx 750m), they were meant and built for feature projection.
The Elmo GS1200 is known for scratching films but there are new parts that can be fitted in order to avoid that. Its recording unit with pulse-sync is top-notch.
Some Fumeos have recording abilities but not all. Most importantly, dual track/stereo units were only built by request by the Fumeo factory so they are scarce and hard to find and probably ludicrously expensive.
But they are built like tanks and very reliable.
If you really don't need optical playback but need recording on the balance track, go for the Beaulieu 708. With trial and error, using the speed adjustment knob, you can make it work for your dubbing purposes.
Its EFR Halogen lamp is quite good for your screen size. With a better Schneider lens and a xenophot version of the EFR, you can increase your light throuhput and get a crisper projected image.
If you're not bothered by reel capacity, the Eumig S938 (for 800ft reels only) could also be a cheaper alternative. It also uses EFR lamps and got a great sound unit.
Some members here also vouch for the Bauer T610 (also 800ft reels).
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 05:44 AM:
Thank you for your answer.
Is the pulse-sync feature of the Elmo useful for dubbing from digital or normal tape (VHS) sources? I see the Elmo has a speed fine adjustment as the Beaulieu or the Chinon, so I could always use it for manual synch.
From your comment it seems that the recording of the Elmo is "the best" (at side of the pulse-synch feature), is the Beaulieu also as good?
I am leaning towards the Elmo because of its "portability" (it will not be fixed in a place, although I am not going to travel with it neither). About light output the not-Xeon is more or less like the Beaulieu?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2016, 05:52 AM:
Jean-Marc has everything summarized really well here, except to say, aside from the very later Beaulieu projectors, they all come with the Schneider Xenovaron excellent f1.1 lens as standard.
If you decide to go down the Beaulieu route, I personally, would only recommend the Stereo onwards models, due to some reports of earlier models having in some cases, inferior gate machined parts that will scratch films as they age.
Once you get to the later Stereo models and the the Studio 93 range Inc the HTI model, this will not happen, I guarantee.
The Osram Xenophot A1 232 combined with the adjustable 2/3 bladded shutter plus the extremely fast pull down claw on these machines, produces an incredible amount of light onto a screen of at least 10ft and also has a lovely whiteness to it that is difficult to come anywhere close to using any other halogen projector on the gauge.
I have used all of the projectors Jean-Marc speaks of apart from the GS 1200. However I have seen and witnessed the pros and cons of this machine on many occasions, so I do have experience of it in use.
For a non scratching high performance showcase machine for an audience of 10, there is no doubt in my mind that the all round ultimate performer for playback of films while keeping the films in the same condition coming out of the machine as when they enter into it....is the Beaulieu 708el CD Stereo models and onwards.
This is regardless of its other advantage of being capable of showing a full feature film on one reel of film, should you so wish.
The Bauer projector, even without pulse sync is my ultimate favourite recording projector for ease of use and the ability to cut in and out of a scene with zero noticeable effect.
It also allows forward and reverse multiple transportation of the film without any damage incurred to film by doing so.
By using the Bauer or Eumig as your showcase projector on playback to an audience of 10, there would however be some element of compromise over the performance of the Beaulieu and that includes light output onto the screen.
I have also never owned a Fumeo, but having digested all the comments from all of their respected owners,which I know a good number of fairly well now and given the extremely limited stereo models and extremely limited recording models, I would not recommend these for your needs here either.
If you do choose to go down the Elmo route, as a safe guarding exercise, I would strongly recommend that you change out all of the known wear parts for the new improved range from Van Eck etc as well as fitting the metal input guide shoe that is still readily available from FFR etc.
Do expect greater reliability issues than most other models and do ensure you have some instant access to vital spare parts like motors etc. These are now becoming more difficult to source without obtaining a second donor machine.
Bear in mind, Beaulieu machines are the only super 8mm Projector that you can still obtain nearly all brand new spare parts for that you are likely to need for the next 20 years or so to keep the thing running A1!
In summary then, if this was my decision to make here, I wouldn't be looking to purchase one projector here, I'd be looking for two.
From the two I'd select to cover all the things you wish to achieve from a super 8mm Projector to the highest standards achievable, with zero risk to film, my two choices would always be the Bauer T610 and later Beaulieu Stereo models that both include the Schneider MC Xenovaron f1.1 11-30mm lens and Osram Xenophot A1 232 lamp on the standard machines and better still, the HTI lamp for the highest Beaulieu model, if you can find one within budget.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on April 01, 2016, 07:11 AM:
Miguel, Andrew has extended explanations beyond hope, so I guess you have now all the cards to help with your decision. This Forum is an amazing place!
On the pulse-sync side of things:
Using the speed adjustment knob is fine but can be tricky as many variables can alter the motor speed. Hence my "trial and error" sentence. Having a pulse fed through the sync unit on the GS1200 (either via a sync box or software) will have your projector constantly running at the correct speed. 25fps for instance, in case you want to sync to European VHS or DVD, be it for playback or redubbing.
I personnaly use a version 1 GS1200 rebuilt and fine-tuned by "Il Maestro" Ugo Grassi, the World's leading expert on all things GS1200s, and a great guy.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 09:42 AM:
Thank you very much for these explanations. A lot of experience there. This is unvaluable.
I see that the Beaulieu is the optimal for my case. Really what you say about the "issues" I could have, even after replacing the wear pieces by the improved ones, and the scarce spare parts, makes me think twice about the Elmo.
The lamp you mention, the Osram Xenophot A1 232, I understand is the one for the Beaulieu non-HTI. This lamp seems a Xeon lamp but with a 3350K of color temperature, that's fine for me.
Now it seems that the only thing that is attractive for me of the Elmo is the pulse-sync feature. That would be the solution for listen stereo features in my native tongue (I couldn't dub it because I would lost a stereo track). Although I guess is possible to do, I don't know if it is easy.
BTW, is it possible to make a pulse-sync playback in a non pulse-synched projector (using some external device)?
About the Beaulieu HTI, do you know the lamp model used? I have read that with added good ventilation it is possible to use a HTI lamp in the non-HTI model. That would be a plus, if eventually in the future it could be needed, although some engineering should be done to fit a powerful fan/turbine.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 01, 2016, 09:52 AM:
I have the Beaulieu 708 HTI. You would also need to get a Ballast and Igniter on top of a fan that you would attach to the projector lamp covering. And you would need relays to make sure the machine would turn off the lamp when stopped so as to not burn the film. I love my Beaulieu and the level of sophistication of that machine is up there with the Elmo and in many ways surpasses it. But it does not play optical and there is no pulse sync. Everything looks better on the Beaulieu! Even "The Rose" 400ft digest. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Here is a good HTI Beaulieu.
http://www.s8profis.de/beaulieu-708elhti-xenon-capstan-drive-stereo-projector-p-371.html
This is the HTI that came directly from the factory and from what I have heard is much better than the ones that were modded after the fact.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 09:56 AM:
Thanks Alan. Is that the 'normal' Price for a Beaulieu 708 HTI ?
BTW, could you tell me the lamp specification/model used in the HTI, please? Is this one Osram HTI lamp ?
Really Andrew's advice seems top. Beaulieu 708 Stereo for projection and the Bauer T610 for dubbing, and with a bit of luck both will fill my budget...but maybe an Elmo for the pulse-sync thing would be a third one to add, when budget/time permits.
BTW, how can I be sure a Beaulieu is one of the very last ones (the ones to get, if I understand correctly)? For example, I have found one that has written on its body 'Beaulieu 708 EL capstan drive STEREO' and the lens has written in it what was commented: 'Schneider - Kreuznach MC Xenovaron 1.1/11-30'. Is this enough to identify it as one suggested by you/one of the latest?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2016, 10:05 AM:
Any stereo model onwards will be a good machine to own.(all stereo models were released later than duo play and early mono only main track models)
The best and newest are the "Studio" models released in 93, but just try finding one!! (Alan & I will be laughing out loud at the same time when he reads this!😊 )
You should be paying no more than £1000 for a very nice clean standard halogen Stereo model from a dealer like above and the sky is the limit for a HTI.
A Studio 93 model will cost considerably more should you ever be able to find one and may very well not have a Schneider lens fitted to it given the era these were made.
I honestly believe you will not be disappointed in any way even just obtaining a standard halogen model when placed in two bladed shutter mode.
They are plenty bright enough for all but the largest of public screenings.
The motor on these runs very accurately and from the superb unique capstan drive design mechanism, you get superb wow and flutter free stereo sound from its powerful internal amplifier when used with good extension speakers. Also sounds fabulous when slaved out via a 5 pin din lead to a separate amplifier with a decent track under the heads.
As for sync pulse opportunities with these, it is achievable and a guy called Pedro used to produce an electronic sync box and motor circuit board as an add on for these.
These are now long gone but stay tuned as there are people like Phil Murat here and possibly even myself here that will be looking to bring to market some new innovation for coupling these fine machines to a digital track in the future!😀
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 10:21 AM:
Thanks for your advice. I think I agree.
The HTI advantage over the non-HTI I guess is only more light output, isn't ?
If the HTI lamp is the one I linked above, then I think I can do without it (because of price of projector) but specially because it has 5600 K, too cold for me, I'm afraid. Maybe some day I will need some colder light, but for the moment I think I'll save the extra money.
What you say about the motor drive sounds very nice. In fact, due to transmission, a few days ago I have just burned out a frame of Derann's Snow White on the Chinon. I can't forgive myself for that ! I really can't ! And in the scene of the magic mirror (one of my favorites... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
)
If only I could find this portion from other Derann copy, I'd try to fix it... But never I'll project it again except in a really safe projector.
Posted by Alessandro Pavoni (Member # 1739) on April 01, 2016, 10:24 AM:
Miguel, Andrew, this one Schneider- Kreuznach MC Xenovaron 1.1/11-30 was made for The Bauer T525/610 series.
But this has a special barrel (32 mm) that fit on Beaulieu 708, and (Fumeo, Eumig, not sure).
On Beaulieu 708 Stereo, you can choose to put 2 or 3 blades, I put this lens on my beaulieu 708 stereo with 2 blades, and you have exceptional brightness.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2016, 12:14 PM:
That lens will fit either the Eumig S938/40 or the Beaulieu 708el but is not the standard style Beaulieu Schneider lens.
It's kind of a cross of both the Bauer and Beaulieu Schneider lenses.
Keep those Derann prints away from that Chinon in the meantime Miguel! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
We only get but one chance nowadays, as I keep saying!
[ April 05, 2016, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 01, 2016, 01:16 PM:
Excuse me to come back with few question more about the Beaulieu.
Surfing this forum and other pages I have read that the Beaulieu had 'finicky focusing system because the gate was getting too hot, and an average sound unit' (about the sound, Andrew opinion seems to be more like the contrary of this).
Also I have read reports of getting too hot (the not-HTI), which makes me fear for burning frames, in case film is stopped by accident ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Is that true? This applies only to mono versions ? Or to all except the HTI or Studio 93 ?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2016, 02:02 PM:
The focussing system is similar to the accuracy experienced of that of a micrometer thread.
It is universally recognized as being the best and most accurate focussing system of any Super 8mm projectors focussing mechanism.
Other "coarser" mechanisms prove far more difficult to focus with when using fast lenses with shallow depths of field and therefore drift out of focus very easily.
With the Beaulieu mechanism, wherever you set it, it stays put.
Also what helps here, is the rare rear sprung gate mechanism.
This keeps the focal length between frame and lens the exact same distance even if different thicknesses of film are joined together like two trailers for example, one acetate, one polyester.
Paul Adsett is someone who posts here. He is a professional mechanical engineer. If you search through his recent posts here, you will see how he gauges this mechanism versus others and Paul is a Eumig and GS owner, not a Beaulieu owner!
Does the lamp house and gate get hot?
Yes of course it does, it's all made of heat conductive steel.
Does this ever pose a problem with warping film or blistering frames etc?
No, never! It is extremely delicate to film and its total transportation when all is per factory settings and set up!
It also dissipates the heat from the lamp house very quickly and effectively by force venting it out through the rear cover with its powerful yet not particularly noisy internal fan.
This projector also does not allow the lamp on full power when still frame facility is used, thus further insuring guaranteed protection of our valuable and often irreplaceable films.
You have nothing to fear with these machines Miguel. Believe me I would not wax lyrical about any machine if it hadn't served me extremely well for a good number of years.
They often need some adjustment when first obtaining them from what I hear and experience, but once set absolutely correctly they are a wonderful professional machine by design.
Sound can appear a little "thin" at times,especially on bass, but using any decent equalizer before an external amp, it can be made rich in sound quality with ease.
Use bass heavy speakers like "Mission" for example, all can be nicely balanced.
I am not easily impressed by many projector designs as often major flaws are observed in their design.
This is one that does the things we really value, very well indeed and gets nearly all the "what counts factors" spot on for your Showtime requirements and certainly mine anyhow.
One of the few things that score low by users is the nylon spindle hubs which do not have the most powerful locking system it has to be said for the very large and heavy reels of film this machine is capable of handling.
What I have found with these is, that so long as you use Posso (Beaulieu) official spools or other quality spools like Elmo, Schneider, Bonum, Gepe etc etc...all is fine.
Do not be tempted to force fit ill fitting off standard spools, these will damage your spindle hubs.
Some later models come with uprated steel spindle hubs. These allow almost any spool to be fitted to them without detriment.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on April 01, 2016, 02:29 PM:
Miguel is doing his homeworks It's great to see someone making good use of the search engine of the forum.
I'll back Andrew regarding this machine being safe and not burning frames.
But as the author behind the "finicky focusing system and average sound unit" line (yup, it was me your Honor, 10 or 12 years ago), running at the time both the Beaulieu and the Elmo, and despite the deepest respect that I have for Mr Buisse and Mr Botazzi (designers of the original 708 prototype) I still find the Elmo superior on these two particular items. I'll encourage you to look for one of the more recent version of the 708 projector.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2016, 02:30 PM:
Indeed Jean-Marc.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 02, 2016, 01:40 AM:
Andrew, thanks for your explanations. Really unvaluable, and serves to reassure me about this projector. The somewhat 'thin' sound, at first and if it is not too evident, does not 'sound' too bad for me, because I am a bit tired of the low end emphasizing in every device built nowadays. I don't like too thin sound of course. This is the same as VHS vs DVD editions. DVD having always more opaque (balanced they'd say) sound of the same soundtracks, I prefer VHS versions (even if they come with a slight hiss background sound). And regarding focusing system -I have read Paul Adsett posts- it seems the best although of course I can't guess nothing here. Jean-Marc seems to find it harder. Maybe it is a subject of personal preferences. I dunno, although being a mechanical engineer myself (although working as hydraulic) I appreciate what Paul explains about this.
BTW, I found this comment from Paul: 'I believe I read somewhere on this forum that the Beaulieu has a much narrower recording head than most super 8 projectors. If that is the case, recordings made on other projectors may not playback very well on the Beaulieu.'. I guess from your answers that it has not been never a problem for you, but I wanted to comment it just in case there is some case in which it could be a problem.
Really by re-reading the posts in this topic and in the forum I realize more and more the quality of the Beaulieu.
One question though:
Jean-Marc I understand from your comment that the 'more recent' version of the 708 are better regarding these two topics? But for you, still below Elmo?
If so, do you have some clue to help me identify one of the more recent ones? Or are you referring to an HTI or the -very hard to find- Studio 93? Or maybe you refer simply to the ones built from 'some year' onwards?
Posted by Patrick Feuerstein (Member # 5293) on April 02, 2016, 03:13 AM:
The Fumeo 9119 is a 16mm fit to Super8. The lamp is 24v/200w but you can use 250w, the ventilation is strong. BUT the BW film stock must be lubricated (I can explain later why). The belts a easy to find. The mecanism is simple, just needs lubrication survey, and can easily serviced (I do it myself). If it's not possible any professional cine compagny must do it. The main advantage is hand-threading.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on April 02, 2016, 04:23 AM:
Miguel, to answer your question, yes, I prefer the Elmo GS1200 because of its pulse-sync recording ability. I don't project full features on super 8.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2016, 07:40 AM:
It really does depend on what you want a projector for.
If you want to show features in one run and don't mind mono sound, and will never have a desire to record anything...maybe a Fumeo is for you.
If you rely heavily on pulse sync and have no desire to show features in one run, then perhaps a GS is to be considered.
If you want to run full features,on one reel, in Stereo and record perhaps now and again ,there is only one machine that can do it...outside of finding one of the "built to order" Fumeo's
Both the Bauer and the Beaulieu can be pulse synced anyhow if you can find a Pedro box and the internal motor controlling boards or make your own perhaps.
All electronically controlled D.C. driven machines have this facility, not just the GS, it's just a case of having the electronics to facilitate it.
The heads work fine btw on the Beaulieu if they are in good shape.
Btw I hope the advice to be invaluable not unvaluable Miguel! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 02, 2016, 07:53 AM:
Do most of you splice onto big reels for features?
My standard operation has always been two machines and changeovers.
That's the main reason I use a mixer panel.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2016, 08:01 AM:
I do Steve, but only when the feature has arrived with me with the leaders and tails already spliced.
If a feature is like new with all original leads and tails present and uncut, then I won't cut them either.
In these instances, I just join each reel if I so wish but keep the breaks in place while on one large reel.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 02, 2016, 08:46 AM:
Glups ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
! Invaluable, yes Sorry.
Regarding the pulse-sync, I'll explore the possibility to use the Beaulieu (or buy a GS just for that), later on.
I found in another site info about the Beaulieu 708 not-HTI having the -how is called in english?- 'firewall' or 'douser/dowser' to block the light from the lamp to the frame, but according to them, in the HTI this was removed.
So, this is definitive. For me the HTI has several disadvantages (the missing 'firewall/douser', price and lamp color temp).
Conclusion: I have to look for a Beaulieu 708EL Stereo (non-HTI) from the 1990s if possible. (And later, the Bauer T610, I don't forget it).
Now I only have to find one in good shape (?).
Can, someone who have a Beaulieu 708, tell me if these projectors show the manufacture date in a characteristics plate or similar?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2016, 09:21 AM:
The serial number underneath the machine should give you some indication of the year it was made in Miguel.
Also there are other visual give away details that tell you if it is a later model of the stereo range.
1/ the slider knobs changed to include a tip end at the top of them rather than the flat topped oval originals.
2/ the analogue frame counter changed to a digital one.
3/ reel holders became metal with a security clip as opposed to the nylon originals.
4/ the V.U. meters changed from the analogue type to LED type.
Some models have some of these changes and not all depending on when they were built, but even the earliest Stereo model offers many improvements in build quality from their earlier non stereo counterparts.
Any stereo model, if well cared for in the past, should serve you well.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 02, 2016, 10:19 AM:
Thank you Andrew and everybody, you have a surprising knowledge and patience. You have really helped me a lot!
Now I'll look for it weekly until I find one.
Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on April 02, 2016, 11:01 AM:
This is a very interesting thread guys. Being very fortunate to own all 'big three' machines, this is how I mostly use them:
For all my home movies: always the Beaulieu 708 EL Stereo
For daily use both features and digests: both Fumeo 9119 (which I have in it's 'AVS' incarnation) and the GS1200 halogen (rebuilt by Ugo Grassi) which I also use as my re-recording machine.
And last but not least: The GS1200 xenon (revised by Ugo Grassi) is used for feature films, scope films and for whenever I long for that 'ultra sharp' xenon light...
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2016, 04:48 PM:
You have some wonderful machines to hand there Alexander, Well done you!
Feel free to add to the debate given your vast experience regarding all 3 of the big 3!
It's only one persons opinion whilever only one person is the only guy (from two only here) willing to offer advice!
Your order of play puzzles me immensely, but I'm sure you will elaborate here with your subsequent explanation.
Posted by Alessandro Pavoni (Member # 1739) on April 03, 2016, 10:15 AM:
Hi Miguel, I find a Beaulieu 708 Stereo on Ebay.
I do not know the seller and the description does not say much,
on the mechanical condition of the machine.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/filmprojektor-Super-8-Beaulieu-708-EL-/262363727987?hash=item3d1618c873:g:UmoAAOSwQgpW~jME
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2016, 11:56 AM:
It's expensive though for a private sale, even if it ran like a fine Swiss Watch. £1200 or 1500€
To be fair, I hadnt noticed it comes with the official flight case and extension speakers. So a nice find then, all in all!
[ April 03, 2016, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Alessandro Pavoni (Member # 1739) on April 03, 2016, 12:36 PM:
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on April 03, 2016, 12:58 PM:
That's the Beaulieu flight case I want. With the machine. But I wouldn't buy the whole lot just for the case.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2016, 02:07 PM:
A suitably sized Aluminium flight case could be sourced for these Steven outside of finding an official Beaulieu one.
I've no room to put mine in one, but if I did have the room, I'd have to find one for it from hundreds of different sized ones of these available for pro audio equipment and the likes.
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on April 03, 2016, 02:11 PM:
Being a stickler I wanted the Beaulieu branded one.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2016, 02:13 PM:
It'd be nice Steven, but not an easy find as also are the official extension speakers.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 03, 2016, 03:13 PM:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the eBay 708EL is stereo.
The bids are expected from 1500€.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2016, 03:21 PM:
Hello again Maurice.
It is a stereo model Maurice, the orange writing on the lamphouse cover gives it away, aside from other detail. but you are absolutely correct Maurice, 1500 euros is the starting price for the bidding on this one.
It has the scope shoe fitted, but apparently no Scope bracket? (which it almost certainly was issued with)
Also the lens does not appear to be a Schneider? (original type usually fitted in this era of manufacture.)
It appears an identical model to my own, so this is what I would have expected it to look like, in every way, inc lens and bracket:-
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 03, 2016, 04:11 PM:
Yep, that's strange. If he answers my first questions, then I'll ask about that too.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 04, 2016, 12:08 AM:
You have to be very careful when you are getting a Beaulieu 708. I have had about 3 of them now. The 1st one I got off of Ebay the seller said it was in good condition. When I received it the film never threaded all the way through. It would get jammed. I sent it off to Bjorn in Sweden and he found out that it needed a new claw, a new main motor, and some new rollers and things. It came to around $900 on top of what I paid. Ouch!
The 2nd was an HTI machine. I knew it was not working since the Ballast and Ignitor was shot when I received it. It needed a tune up as well as new parts.
But once everything was fixed on these machines the 2 I had previous were some of the nicest running projectors from any manufacturer I had used. Just purrs along. So make sure you ask lots of questions before you bid. They are great machines but they have to be in tip top shape to really shine. They also made many different versions of that machine. The HTI machine I have now has no dowser to cut off the lamp if the projector gets stuck on a frame. The light just shuts off. With the previous HTI that I had repaired that one did come with a dowser and the bulb would go into standby mode.
Also the mono/non stereo models are the ones to stay away from IMHO. The Stereo machines were fitted with the adjustable 2/3 blade shutter and when you put the 2 bladed shutter position in place the films looked great and the image was brighter with the 150 watt lamp than the image from my GS1200 with 200 watt lamp. Sound as they say is so so through the internal speakers. You can't really turn them up without them rumbling or making weird noises. But if you hook it up to external speakers than the sound is pretty nice.
For focusing I'm with Andrew on this one. For me the Beaulieu has the best focusing mechanism in Super 8. You can fine tune the focus and it will stay put. Even with the HTI lamp that mine uses there is no image going out of focus due to heat. That may have been one isolated incident because I had 3 of them and not one of them had focus issues. Keep your eyes peeled. The company that I had in the link before had an almost NEW Beaulieu 708 Stereo. They wanted 1600 + Euros? I think if it was nearly new and everything was working as it should than that was a fair price. The Beaulieu 708 Stereo has to be one of my favorite machines that I've owned.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 04, 2016, 02:09 AM:
Thank you Alan for sharing your experience, I appreciate it and is very useful, thanks for the operation details: they help a lot to clarify questions in my mind.
Frankly it scares me a little. Of course I don't want to pay 800-1000 € and then double that. By the way, I don't know who is Bjorn in Sweden, (at side of someone that repairs Beaulieu), but I have readen that Beaulieu, in France, still repairs their cameras and projectors. Which seems a better option, at least for me that I am closer to them.
Indeed, I almost never use the built-in speakers, so it's all right.
Unhappily the web site you refer to do not have anymore the Beaulieu you mention, but I retain the price as a maximum, in case an almost-new one is found. They have two HTI though, and pretty expensive!
I keep searching.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 04, 2016, 02:36 AM:
Thanks to Andrew for the answer.
The eBay photographs are not very clear. I certainly missed the orange word "Stereo".
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2016, 03:19 AM:
No problem Maurice,it really isn't too clear on any of the photographs on the one for sale.
Miguel, Alan has also given you his superb and highly accurate assessment of all things Beaulieu, so in my opinion, given the experience of people like Alan, you are in a very well informed position to now go on and select a very good machine.
As with any other, there are plenty of pitfalls and obstacles to overcome, but with careful selection of questions asked to a potential seller, and then some kind of video evidence of its performance, you should be able to ensure you receive a nice fully working machine to begin with and any slight tweaks needed to improve upon its already decent performance levels, shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility if you have some understanding as to how these things work.
They are nearly all 30 plus years old now, so just like a well cherished 30 year old classic car, you perhaps cannot expect total perfection running conditions from it as soon as you receive it. Unless it has had plenty of money on New spare parts spent on it over the decades.
The good news is, in almost every case, the parts are out there to get these things like new again, for the likely wear items.
.................................................................................................................................................................................... ............
Incidentally, one thing to bear in mind with these or any other Super 8mm sound projector is, the internal speakers, given the restrictive size of the rear cover and all of the inner workings it has contained within, are only ever designed to be used as monitor speakers.
So it would be wrong to judge the sound from these, or indeed any other Super 8mm machine, purely based on what you hear from the internal speakers.
The internal speakers on these machines, as with many others, are only tiny comparatively, and therefore the internal amplifier distributes only a fraction of it's available output power through to the internal speakers.
The sound therefore will of course sound "thin", especially through these internal speakers, as they simply cannot replicate decent bass levels.
Once you attach some decent 4 or 8 ohm speakers onto the ends of those 2 pin din connectors, then you will hear the capabilities of these in earnest with a decent Stereo track running through it.
Better still if use external speakers connected locally to the projector and also slave out at the same time to your screen room through an external amplifier, which this machine can do simultaneously.
[ April 04, 2016, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2016, 06:05 AM:
When it comes to checking out the condition of the claw and such likes, ask for photographs something like these in their detail here, to give you a good indication you are unlikely to fall into the same trouble as Alan unfortunately did do here when he purchased his first from e bay.
In this day age, given all the communication technology we have at our disposal and at the end of our fingertips, there need not be too many disappointments here I feel, nowadays.
Just make sure the claw tips have been fully and thoroughly cleaned with a soft brush or compressed air before they are photographed in order for you to make a fair assessment here.
This claw works fine, so guage any by this if you like.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 04, 2016, 01:27 PM:
Thanks Andrew, this is perfect! You are helping a lot. I'll keep that to compare with. I'll ask for an image like that when I find it.
I wonder if there are other -visible- particular/critical parts to put attention on, at side of the general look or lens shape.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 04, 2016, 02:12 PM:
Listen to the motor. The one where the motor went the speed would fluctuate every so slightly. Even with no film in the projector the one I had you could hear the sound of the motor go faster / slow down a little. When a motor cannot keep the correct speed is when the motor needs replacing. Also a jumpy picture could mean the gate could need replacing. I had a lot of vertical movement. Just ever so slightly but enough to make you go crazy if you were watching it. Look for cracked rubber rollers, missing pieces. Usually if you see a machine and it looks really nice most of the times it may need a little adjustment but overall could be a nice machine. If the machine is missing pieces, paint looks bad, cracked pieces means it wasn't take care of very well and could lead to costly repairs down the road. Or maybe even in front of you on the road!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2016, 02:32 PM:
The motor on these can be demonstrated with and without film, no problem. Ask for a video from threading through to projection.
Ask to see the fixed speed control button working with film and ask to see the variable speed control knob working also.
Ask to see 18fps then 24 fps. with a change of the switch.
Also check the film is being fed smoothly and constantly through the Capstan Drive section and that the bottom and top loops remain rigidly constant in their shape as the film is fed through the machine.
With no film loaded ask the seller to show you the floating roller mechanism working at the capstan drive area. by moving the rocker mechanism gently forwards and backwards you should hear the machine speed up and slow down.
This is just for the motor section.
Do similar checks for the sound section including both channels. Ask to see the V.U. meters in action when switching from one track to another and then Stereo mode.
Ask to see an input through to internal and external speakers etc etc.
The list can be endless, but your confidence should build if the thing looks and sounds right and is clearly cared for and the above at least, turns out to be working satisfactory.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 05, 2016, 12:10 AM:
Here is the finished auction. Came with a 2 year warranty.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/WIE-NEU-Filmprojektor-Beaulieu-708-EL-708EL-STEREO-2-Jah-Gewaehrleistung-/201541800427?hash=item2eecd3d1eb%3Ag%3APXYAAOSwvgdW5wo3&nma=true&si=3B8A1Vl3WzV%252 BRp%252BctpWc0PA5%252FPw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 05, 2016, 05:22 AM:
Looked a very nice machine Alan, even if just a tad pricey.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 05, 2016, 11:58 AM:
Go for the high end CHINON (CHINON 9500 is a great one, I own two!) or a GREAT high end EUMIG stereo model, some of the best stereo or mono playback that you'll ever hear from a super 8 projector, to be sure!
The EUMIG 938 stereo is a great example, just ask Paul Adsett!!
(I'm still looking to get one of those myself, quite frankly)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 05, 2016, 12:16 PM:
I have one Osi, but with respect, it's poles apart from any of the machines in serious contention and spoken of here.
Why would you consider a 938 or 9500 to be the best option for Miguel here Osi, given his upgrade requirements?
The 938,while an excellent projector, wouldn't be the brightest option for an audience of 10, nor does it have plausible recording facilities given its a.c. friction drive design.
The guy by preference, wants HTI brightness levels, then why on earth would you recommend a Chinon 9500??
Bear in mind, I recommended a T610 only for Miguels recording work, it is a far brighter machine than a 938, no question.
But even then, I didn't recommend it as his showcase machine as I feel the brightest levels achievable from T610 would fall way short of his expectations based on its design and his requirements here.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 05, 2016, 01:27 PM:
By the way, I have also, at side of the Chinon SS1200, the Chinon 7500, but I never use it for important prints. In fact I use it rarely.
The SS1200 seems pretty similar to the 9500 to me (except for the optical reading).
[ April 05, 2016, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 05, 2016, 03:09 PM:
The SS1200 is the flagship model Miguel. If you don't like this one, it's highly unlikely any other from the range is going to turn out be THE "projector of choice" here, like Osi would have you believe.
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 05, 2016, 05:57 PM:
Yes if you have a Chinon SS1200 that is the top of their line so a 9500 would be a step down for you.
I just re-read your original post and noticed a few things. Your image size requirement is not that large so you would not need an HTI/Xenon machine. Also if the people are in the same room as the projector you will want a nice quiet machine.
You can make any projector scratch proof with proper care but some are more prone to scratching i.e.: GS1200, ST1200, well any machine if not taken care of properly.
I owned a Fumeo 9119 and in terms of picture, sound, and threading it was top notch. But I didn't really like the ergonomics of it. It didn't have much finesse but it is a professional Super 8 machine and designed with almost all metal parts. I almost want another one! I have never heard of a Fumeo scratching film. That is quality.
I found the image of the Eumig S938 a little dim for me but with a better lens (Schneider or Ektar 1.0) the Image is MUCH better.
Bauer machines are very quiet and the Eumigs and Sankyo S800's are quiet too. The Beaulieu 708's are pretty quiet as well. Not as much as the others but still great in the same room.
If your features are on 1200ft reels....its Elmo, Beaulieu, or Fumeo for you.
Many great projectors to choose from and as you can see everyone has a favorite!
Good luck! This is one of those fun decisions!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 05, 2016, 11:58 PM:
And finally...just to add to yet another fine summary by Alan here, I use the same Schneider lens that the Beaulieu has in it (duplicate) in the S938.
Yes it makes it better for brightness and sharper for image quality, no doubt.
But it still falls way short of the T610 for brightness levels due to shutter and cam design plus single lamp setting and therefore is also a far cry from the image performance levels of the Beaulieu, which again, offers the highest open gate screen image luminosity reading of exceptional whiteness of any halogen generated Super 8mm Projector image, bar none, when the correct recommended lamp is in place.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 06, 2016, 11:49 AM:
Ahhh, brightness, I didn't read every post as sharply as I should have ...
Though I must say, in the case of some of the top models out there, you are sometimes paying more for the name brand than the quality level (though I have heard a lot of good about that "B" brand projector), and can't some of the smaller models take different lamps to increase they're light output?
I don't know if that is the case with a Eumig, as I've never tried, I have a big enough screen and the light output is just fine with my projectors.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 07, 2016, 10:30 AM:
The Beaulieu 708 seller of eBay has confirmed me that it is from 1980. That scares me a little, it is just one of the first Stereo models, AFAIK, instead of one of the last (or at least around 90s).
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 07, 2016, 12:13 PM:
Andrew on the Eumig 938:
quote:
But it still falls way short of the T610 for brightness levels due to shutter and cam design plus single lamp setting
One of the reasons for low brightness may be that the lamp is not operating at 15 volts. On my machine I measured a measly 14.2 volts at the lamp, so I changed the transformer tap from 117v to 110v and got the required 15v at the lamp.
The difference was huge (Donald Trump quote )
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 07, 2016, 12:33 PM:
Paul ...
How would you change that, as I have the 926, and I wouldn't be surprised that, as a general rule, they are quite similar in design within.
But this brings up a question ...
I have noted that I get an extremely long life out of my lamps on the Eumig 926, far longer than the usual 25 or so hours, and perhaps this can be because it's not at the 15 level and just a little lower?
I really don't understand this part of projector tinkering and all, so you're advice and expertise would certainly help.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 07, 2016, 02:03 PM:
Paul, I think we had this conversation in the past on here regarding the voltage settings on the S938.
All I can remember here for the time being is it is set at the optimum safe setting to maximize the lamp output. I cannot remember the tappings on the transformer primary, but whatever I could safely run it at, will be the setting I used. Either 240v or 220v.
Osi, you have to be careful not to over excite the delicate electronics on projectors like a 926 or 938. There is a lot going on in there and much of it needs to be receiving the exact correct voltage and though + or - 10% of the rated voltage, maybe tolerated from the secondary windings for most of the electronics, it's not worth stressing any part of the circuit unnecessarily at the age these machines now are.
I try to limit any over excitation of these lamps to no more than 15.2v myself, to ensure the above applies to the rest of the circuit's.
Wherever it's at (and I know it's very close to 15v), it falls a long way short of the image brilliance gained from either of the 610's I have. Or for that matter the ST 1200 I still have.
Obviously the Beaulieu, with all of its advancement in design plus a 2 bladed shutter, is out there in a league of its own by comparison to any other 15v halogen machine I have.
Equally Osi, referring to your earlier points raised here, projectors are not like Nike T shirts, where the same T Shirt can be manufactured in the same Chinese factory but the one with the tick sells for ten times more than the one without!
Projector brands and model reputations were only ever built up by user experience, not fashion statements.
No one ever thought the GS 1200 was the greatest Super 8mm Projector ever built until they used one.
Not even the legendary Ivan Watson!!
By the time any electro mechanical device carries a "brand name" as its reputation, it's been a very impressive device in use, to gain one!
[ April 07, 2016, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on April 07, 2016, 02:20 PM:
I found a very nice multi page review on the Beaulieu Id like to add to this thread but I do not know how. Is it possible to post a PDF?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 07, 2016, 02:21 PM:
Most I've already posted Alan, here or on other forums.
Whose review was it?
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on April 07, 2016, 02:30 PM:
Andrew this was done by Ignacio Corzo.
I have the link but do not want to post if its against forum rules. If you have already posted this one then as you say no need to post it.
Thanks Andrew.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 07, 2016, 02:37 PM:
It certainly doesn't go against forum rules Alan to post informative reviews, no never.
I think it's already here or elsewhere on the reviews sections but it would be great to revisit it once again Alan!
Can't get too much of a good thing Alan
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on April 07, 2016, 02:47 PM:
Sounds good Andrew here is the link. This just downloads the PDF to your desktop I do not know of a way to share so everyone on the forum can enjoy. All in all another thumbs up for the Beaulieu:)
https://www.jottacloud.com/opin/io/downloadPublic/bjarnee/ @f701c89debe14f55aae768813b67bd74_QmVhdWxpZXU3MDhFTC5wZGY=
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 07, 2016, 02:59 PM:
Thanks Alan, top man.
That must surely be the happiest baby in the world!
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 08, 2016, 11:18 AM:
I received a photo of the Beaulieu's claw, but I can't identify it as being the same as Andrew's one. This seems to have only one tooth, or it is an optical effect ?
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 08, 2016, 11:29 AM:
Interesting analogy with T-shirts Andrew, but I do agree, I probably shouldn't fiddle with something I don't understand!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 08, 2016, 11:42 AM:
Fiddle all you like Osi, just consider all factors before doing so, that's all.
Miguel, the photo isn't really quite clear enough to be able to see the claw correctly plus it appears slightly retracted.
I can just about see both tips though...just not quite clearly enough to learn anything from this photograph regarding the shutter claw tips condition.
Either take the guys word on it, or ask for a better, closer photo.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 09, 2016, 04:48 AM:
Hi Miguel , Andrew,
What I can see through the picture is a Twin Teeth claw, more probably former generation (Black Appearance) because the last one made by Beaulieu has a different treatment with yellow or gold apperance.
Miguel, if you bought a Beaulieu 708 EL Stereo with unknown background, I suggest you to replace as preventive action, both Main Capacitors (4700µf / 63V , 2200µf / 63 V, very common, easy to find).
As a 2nd Preventive Action, renew Thermal Compound for the 3 Power Transistors and STK Power Amplifier.
Anyway, a Beaulieu 708 properly maintained is like a Truck considering the mechanical systems......
Check the Rear Hub Torque : has to be trimmed to 600gr/cm to avoid future extra wears of gears which are plastic made material (unfortunately......).
Avoid rewinding your movies using the front carrier (for same reasons).
Beaulieu 708 is "Film Safe" :
- 3 machines tested (Old & New genaration), NO SCRATCH REPORTED EVEN ON THE EDGES !!! (Rollers modified or not as well)
- If the Motors Drive Regulation operates normally, NO BROKEN AND/OR FILM JAM EVENTS TO REPORT (Otherwise, if Regulation is faulty ====> Film jams immédiatly , and damages appears!!!).
Each Time you Power Up the machine, insure the régulation works like this (No Film loaded) :
1)Once, set the Main Knob on "Sound" and Push backward the "Loop Sensor" ===>;
-Speed decrease Up to 21 Fps approx
- Full Speed is something like 27 fps
- Medium position is 24 fps.......approx
2)Sometimes, watch "Loop Sensor" during Machine opération (and pay attention to Motors Sound) ===> Loop Sensor has to be steady. If not, there is something wrong (Film or Machine.....)
Phil
[ April 09, 2016, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Phil Murat ]
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 09, 2016, 01:39 PM:
Thank you very much Phil,
If I finally find one Beaulieu Stereo (will see, not easy), I check what you say.
I was thinking on tests to do, so this is very useful.
Is not posible to know if it is needed to do the component changes you comment (capacitors, etc)?
Thanks again!
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 09, 2016, 02:19 PM:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/DER-BESTE-S8-FILMPROJEKTOR-ALLER-ZEITEN-BEAULIEU-EL708-MIT-2-3-FLUGELBLENDE-/121950688020?hash=item1c64d3d314:g:VvEAAOSwjMJXCAjG
Here is another one. Looks great but NO PAYPAL! (well thats what it says in the auction!
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 09, 2016, 02:33 PM:
Hey, thank you Alan, I missed this one. I am going to check it.
EDIT: I have spotted this. Is this original ? It seems not, but not sure. See red circles, and the arrow that points to a little hole unknown for me:
Frankly, they seem a little sloppy...
[ April 10, 2016, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 10, 2016, 04:39 AM:
Hi Miguel,
Checking Sereo Models, there is no screw in this area, and no hole too.
Backside is the Main Motor Cradle.
Try to get anymore Pictures.
An other point to check is the 4 Nylon "Heads Press Skates" (Reading & Monitoring Heads) :
- Set Main Knob in "Sound" Position (Film loaded) and check clearance between retainer rings and holder. low is the clearance and worner is the skate........
It could be interesting you get a close picture of this condition.
Let me know.
Phil
Is it the "Beaulieu 708 EL STEREO" I have seen on "Le Bon Coin" for 1000 Eur with external High Power Lamp Bus Box?
It was a projector modified by a compagny specialised in Beaulieu Customisation (High Power Lamp, HTI, etc......)
If you want a HTI Power lamp , you can Get modification using a Former "Light Box" (Used for Borescope industry or Medecine).
Now , you can find on "Le Bon coin" (Professionnal page).
However there is NO U/V FILTER in these boxes, so you ll have to find it in an other way.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 10, 2016, 06:22 AM:
Well, this is not my Beaulieu (in case there is a misunderstanding), is the one in sale in eBay posted by Alan. The seller has published in eBay also an image of the other side (without the cover).
By the way, after the first contacts with the seller, in my opinion it is not worth to deal with him:
The announce is mainly attractive because of price and the photos which are taken with studio-standard light, but the description, if you read carefully, says almost nothing of importance, and it sounds to me as the typical chatter of a "used-car seller". I can't believe he is an enthusiast of Super 8 seeing the description that he does.
Additionnaly I strongly doubt he says the truth about the origin of the PJ or the reasons for sale: only looking to the amount of items he is selling normally...
Moreover, judging by his replies, I'd say he is a very good candidate for the most ill-bred and pathetic german seller I have ever dealed with (and I have dealed with a LOT of german sellers in eBay and outside, for more than 15 years).
Add to it, that he does not accept PayPal, and we have the typical "eBay bully" profile. BTW, personally I learnt not to consider eBay votes as a guide, never.
Frankly, I can't have confidence on this seller neither the condition of this projector. My feeling is that he tries to sell off a projector that has arrived to his hands, God knows how, not telling all the truth and using a starting lower price as carrot.
Maybe someone can have a different interpretation, though.
---------------------
On other side, thank you Phil for the checking advice. I'll take it into account.
About Le Bon Coin, I have been searching there without success for more than a week. Have you found one there ? What do you mean by 'professional page'? Is a part of the site different from the normal one?
I am not too interested in HTI, mainly because the lamp color temperature (color tone), but why not, if it is posible to put a standard halogen lamp, and I have the luck to find it for a non-HTI price, then I could consider it.
[ April 10, 2016, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 10, 2016, 08:32 AM:
Hi Miguel,
Considering "Le Bon Coin" , I found recently "exactly" what I was looking for, I mean a 708 EL Mono in "médium condition" but working pretty well for 80 Euros........
Do not choose a HTI Model as you'll be charge a lot for a low improvment (Exept for Lamp life , 3000Hrs Approx, This is my own opinion).
1000 Eur (Any 708 Stereo version) is a correct price for a machine showing a pretty good condition.
Moreover ask the seller to send you any pictures ("Sharp" pictures) you like concerning specifics points as you can imagine.
At the end , call him at phone, and how the conversation sounds, as 1000 Eur is "Money", trust in your own feeling (this is a psychological game)
Be Patient.......
Posted by Luis Caramelo (Member # 2430) on April 10, 2016, 09:33 AM:
Andrew is right,it,s a nice model the chinon st-1200,i got mine over several years.still o,k.i the easy clean of the sound head,the image stands like a rock,i got na external amplifer,witch gives a good stereo,the only but i found it,s not easy to fixed a scope lenses.
luis caramelo
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 11, 2016, 02:07 PM:
I have received some more photos from the Beaulieu claw, but he took them in the worst angle I'm afraid. Could you get some conclusions from them?
He has also sent me some images, where I see some wear:
Smeared letters:
Strange wear in lens metal cylinder (what could have produced that?)
Or this one which shows some stains (?) in front and lamp cover... Could it be humidity?
Maybe you, that have seen more Beaulieu PJs, could you identify what it could be ? I mean, could it be faulty painting?
It seems in not-bad shape according to the life/use reported by seller, but I keep wondering if it is worth.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 11, 2016, 02:28 PM:
I may say a bêtise but it seems from the picture that there are corrosion spots on the gate.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 02:29 PM:
It's really difficult to tell most of your queries here Miguel from these photographs. The third one down suggests the claw is good just from a quick visual inspection. Obviously this doesn't mean it runs well nor does it mean it runs badly, you simply cannot tell until you see it in action on all different stocks. You really have to take someone's word on this until you come to try it out for yourself.
The paintwork again is difficult to assess here. In some photographs I've seen of this particular machine, it looks fine, on others it looks as though it has a residue powdery coat to it like when these have been stored in damp conditions.
You simply cannot tell without seeing it in the flesh. It might just be flash glare from the camera taking the photographs.
If the weather is nice where it is, see if he will take you a photo of it in his garden in nice bright sunlight so no flash will be needed to photograph it Miguel.
This type of hammered finish paintwork often doesn't do the machines looks any justice when photographed. They often look far better in the flesh.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 11, 2016, 02:30 PM:
Hi Miguel,
J have sent you a P/M....
The cloudy stains are witnesses of wet storage conditions....... Difficult to remove.
Dominique is right, these are corrosion pits.....
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 02:35 PM:
Yep you're right guys! In a bid to home in on the claw itself I completely overlooked the corrosion on the gate!! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
What I will say is it kind of suggests that what the seller says about this machine not being used much is looking a very truthful statement here. It has probably been stored for very long periods in between useage.
Might be good in some respects though, but obviously have disadvantages in other respects.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 11, 2016, 02:40 PM:
High Andrew,
I hope it s not dramatic too much, but a treatment is necessary as soon as possible.
The chrom plated sides seems to be good. Needs to be polished too...
There is a high probability this machine needs extra works .....
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 11, 2016, 02:53 PM:
Thank you for all your answers. I guess that the gate would need a replacement with a new piece then.
But this wet storaging could have affected to other internal parts maybe. And maybe more important ones ?
Phil, what do you mean with polishing? Do you mean removing the paintwork and redoing it from scratch or it's other thing... ?
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 11, 2016, 02:57 PM:
I mean polishing work for the Gate Skate..........
Yes, Wet Storage is not a good news for Electronic Components....
Wet storage has not too much bad effect on rubbers (Belts / Pinch roller...... However to be confirm)
Did you Get my Message in your Private (Profile Tab)?
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 11, 2016, 03:41 PM:
Yes I got it. You have a PM Phil.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 11, 2016, 04:29 PM:
Hi Miguel,
I have sent you Email adress in your "Profile" box........ Let us know
Phil
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on April 11, 2016, 05:09 PM:
The side panel is showing some kind of over cleaning, to the extent that it has started to remove the silk screen printing on the side. This has stood somewhere for sometime in moist surroundings for the gate to get this kind of rust spots on a machined surface, but more disturbing is that the lens would have also been in situ, so I would bet once you start using it again the lens would mist up and the fungus spores would appear somewhere on the lens front or back. The textured finish on this machine does not look to bad, but the aluminium oxidation can sit under the surface and once the heat starts to heat up the machine's frame, the bad bits start to show up and crumble off. They are great machines when right, but like anything not used for sometime you are opening up a Pandora's box. I think if you get it at sensible money there would be room for some parts to be bought, to get it running good again.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 05:26 PM:
Terrific and very sensible analysis of this machines overall condition and worth there Paul.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 12, 2016, 10:25 AM:
Paul, thanks a lot for your comments, they are very helpful.
The problem is that the seller asks for a high price, so I'm afraid that this makes me reluctant to invest on it. Not sure yet, but...
I guess that to make eventual repairs, if there are some that I can't do myself with guarantees, then I should send it to Sweden or Beaulieu (France) still repair them ?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 12, 2016, 10:30 AM:
Wittners and a specialist who used to work for Beaulieu are the two official options I know of Miguel.
If you're unsure or concerned about repair costs, I suggest you wait for another, more suitable example for your requirements,comes along Miguel.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 12, 2016, 01:05 PM:
I think it is a good advice. As Paul says is a Pandora's box. Maybe I fix some parts only to find a year or some months later that other part is also not working as it should (or even the paintwork), or even worse, to have some part not working correctly and not being aware due to my lack of/limited experience. Just thinking out loud. I'll see.
I have also another chance with another, but it is a modified one, so you can use 150W or 250W (non-HTI). Would you buy a modified one?
Personally, after receiving first information of it I was thinking that I don't need this extra light (maybe some day I'll regret this, but who knows), and, specially as I am not familiarized with them yet, and this would be my first Beaulieu, I feel I'd need a 'standard' one in order to learn/know by myself what these projectors do and don't, etc.
If I start with a modified one I always wondered if this or that behaviour or feature is normal or not, and the support and advice will become more difficult as it is a 'unique' projector.
So I'd still prefer a normal Stereo unit, in good shape, if I could find one.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 12, 2016, 01:18 PM:
I agree with your prognosis there Miguel regarding this machine and your view on first purchasing a very clean "as original" example.
Many have been "tinkered" with, some by expert hands, but often not it would appear!
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