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Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 10, 2016, 07:40 AM:
Hello,
Following the recommendation of Andrew here, I am also interested in purchasing a Bauer T610. I have found several ones in eBay but I have to decide.
I wondered if you know the serial numbers that these projectors reached (min-max approx.), or if you could share their numbers, in the case you have one of these.
I think it could be useful to have an approx. idea of their (relative) age.
Thank you
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on April 10, 2016, 07:59 AM:
I don't think Serial numbers will help you much in this case. Those models did not change from when they first appeared to when they disappeared! You can have a late model unit which has seem a lot of film and you can have an early serial number unit that has seen very little film.
I have owned more than a few of these machines. One thing you have to check on these is the claw and the other is the threading mechanism. If the unit has seen a lot of film the claw can get worn and when it does you have to get it replaced. When the claw goes the framer doesn't work in its full range. No matter how much you turn it the image will jitter when framed perfectly or it will stop jittering when the frame line is in the middle of the image!
The threading mechanism should work flawless every time. But if the unit has been sitting too long the pivot gear in the shift linkage that connects the main knob to the threading mechanism, play mode, rewind, etc. can get seized. When that happens the unit will thread some times but not all times or not at all!
And of course since the T610 is a micro processor controlled model if that goes there are no replacements unless you get one from another machine. Good thing is I have never heard of that happening.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 08:13 AM:
My only experience with these machines are make sure you get one that has been well serviced and maintained as there is a lot of plastic parts used in the claw & framing mechanisms which do wear as Alan said.Ensure the sound is good on BOTH tracks, I was a bit unfortunate with mine however, i will say they are very nice projectors and extremely quite running. The quietest i have ever heard, great light output & superb recording facilities.
Compared to what i use, (the 1200HD's) the sound output,although very good quality has a lot more hum in comparison and is nowhere near as good in volume unless of course you are using a separate amp.
Would i buy another one? Well, actually i would if i could get one for under £300. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ June 21, 2019, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]
Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on April 10, 2016, 08:24 AM:
Here ya go Tom, he hee!
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/SUPER-8-PROJEC TOR-PROIETTORE-BAUER-T-610-STEREO-MICROCOMPUTER-/191845323770?hash=item2caadf53fa:g:UfYAAOSwwpdW8C9i ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I am sure they are worth it...just out of my range unfortunately. If i stumble on one at a fleamarket or auction for a bit cheaper, i would try as well....
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 09:27 AM:
Which part of the microprocessor are you saying is obsolete Alan?
Also Tom. The stereo amplifier on the Bauer T610 has a music power rating of 2x 20w vs the GS 1200 @ 2x 15w.
So when used with 4ohm ext speakers, the output is very good indeed with no shortage of power for a super 8mm Projector.
The internal speakers are not the largest, nor is the output to them from the internal amplifier in order to protect them....but as I keep saying, internal speakers on any Super 8mm machine are designed only as "monitor" speakers , and therefore the more space that is taken up in the cabinets of the more sophisticated projectors,with electronics and the likes, the less space there is for loudspeakers.
Hence the reason why to some people, they'd say the internal sound from say a Eumig S932 betters that of some of the more sophisticated stereo models like a T610 just from listening through the internal speaker(s) because the Eumig has only one relatively large internal speaker, while the Bauer stereo model has to try and accommodate two in a similar sized cabinet.
Even the stereo S938/40 only has one internal speaker and its because of the reasons stated above, are the very same reasons as to why Braun decided to only supply ext speakers with its top stereo model..the Braun Visacoustic 2000.
In order to do its soundstage justice within the confines of a very small footprint for the machine itself.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 10:01 AM:
Good find Matthew, unfortunately i think the problems i had with mine were probably during transit so i wouldn't risk buying one form overseas no matter how close in Europe, the one i had was faulty on delivery, (i suspect because of the transporting form overseas), and it went back and came back to me again with the same problem.
Sound wise, you are right there Andy,(although i am refering to extension speaker use, i never watch films through the built in speakers), but for me the hum even through an excellent pioneer amplifier was way too much for me.
[ April 10, 2016, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 10:08 AM:
Ground loop isolator would have helped here Tom.
They are not the best machine for eliminating microphone effect from between the heads and transformer though to start off with, I agree.
What's the worse part for me is the audible hum in standby mode, not when the heads are loaded during playback so long as the recording was made at decent levels to begin with.
The standby hum is fairly unforgivable by design and could easily have been all but eradicated by design with a different circuit path, like the Beaulieu takes which has none of this same problem here.
The heads needn't be brought into circuit even until the sound mode is selected on the rotary main control knob. The Bauer T610 could have given itself an advantage here by having a silent projection mode like the S938 and 708's, but sadly it wasn't designed with one.
In these conditions mentioned earlier above where the soundtrack was originally recorded at a decent level, the sound can be really first class with hardly any hum during playback even at relatively high levels and even without an isolator in place by just using the internal amplifier and separate matched 4 ohm external speakers to gain full power delivery from the internal amplifier.
Any recording made on these and then played back on one of these sounds absolutely superb and up there with any other top stereo super 8 projector.
Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 10, 2016, 10:43 AM:
I was thinking...how do you know if a T610 has the recording or playback heads in good shape or if it has been used intensely for dubbing, for example ? Is it possible to know by inspection or testing ?
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 10, 2016, 11:06 AM:
I have had a Bauer T510 Stereo for eight years and have been very pleased with it. I understand that it is very similar to the T610 but without all its bells and whistles.
I bought it from German Ebay and it cost £199 (after conversion from Euros.)
I did have some trouble with "scratchy" sound on Track 1 but this was traced to dry soldered joints on the push switch assembly pins. I also see that repairs were made to the optic speed sensor on the drive shaft.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 01:29 PM:
By the way, i also like to be able to turn the bulb off via the bulb switch, this way on the Elmo's for example, the film end titles are going up and as some films do have some end music during the tail i simply switch off the bulb and put the lights on as the music is playing out, a more satisfying viewing arrangement, (just like some cinemas do), what i found odd about the Bauer is once the end titles have gone up the only way to switch off the bulb as the remaining tail is going was to go to threading mode and of course this makes a whole lot of horrible threading noise.
I personally found this a bit odd. Even with the Eumig range when you turn the main switch to the threading position after the end titles to turn off the bulb the projector doesn't clatter the film through the same way the T series seems to.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 01:42 PM:
There's a always a lens cap Tom!😀
The Elmo ST's are quite unique in this separate and individual lamp circuit design and I believe it was to safe guard the single frame facility using the unreliable diffuser mechanism, again, which is a fairly unique design feature of the Elmo's.
The "clatter" you refer to Tom, in thread position,when coming back from run position, is something to be praised over most others manufacturers designs on projector mechanisms......this including the Eumigs.
Can you guess why?
And why would what you describe in your actions be seen to be advantageous in any way?
It's a procedure not really meant to be undertaken btw, which may give you clue.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
And to give you another clue...the thread position is just that...meant to be used only while threading the film.
[ April 10, 2016, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 04:23 PM:
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
a lens cap? how quaint
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 04:26 PM:
Questions Tom??
C'mon Tom, have a go, you like questions and answers.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 04:33 PM:
now your being greedy
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 05:09 PM:
Well here is my slant on it Tom having studied in great detail the various film paths that we come to love or loathe on our gauge of choice;
The T610 differs to any other machine I have used, in the respect that it has the most movement in thread mode from its rack slider mechanism, than any other type of Super 8mm projector.
It has at least two sets of sprung rollers, a top loop former plus a pressure plate that completely moves out the way /comes into play, during thread / projection mode (as appropriate).
What this means to us, the end user, is that because it has all of this action built into it's rack slider mechanism, is that it guarantees (unlike any other traditionally designed auto thread machine), that everything that can harm a film from the auto threading mechanism, moves completely out of harms way during projection like no other!
The advantage of this is simple..no harm or damage whatsoever to film due to zero contact of any stationary parts to the film in run other than the minimal necessary parts, gate pressure plate and magnetic heads. Anything else is already out of the way!
It is for this reason, that if you try to recreate the thread film path in run, it would over time, have disastrous consequences to your films "in mid run".
Other projectors do not concentrate in getting the thread assist parts out of the way completely, in the manner these do.
Many others have far simpler movement of parts meaning there is little difference between the thread path and the run path.
this in concept, is fraught with danger as a thread path relies on touching and therefore guiding the film in as many places as possible, versus a run path which ideally relies on getting as much of the film "floating" in mid air as is possible, and to a reliable and steady consistent shape.
It is for these reasons why no other machine would mind too much if you placed it in "thread" during mid run, but these by stark contrast, positively strongly object to it!
It is also why Sooo many other machines can and do scratch films at some point or another, but these will never whilever you keep that extremely well principled mechanism exactly how the designers designed it to work
So Alan and anyone else, yes over gross time of non use, this mechanism can play up so to speak, but keep it all healthy,or even just use it once a fortnight, and you're onto an absolute winner, and see the benefit here of this excellent design each time you put that film back into it's box in exactly the same condition and value as you watched it in, the night before!
[ April 11, 2016, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 10, 2016, 05:40 PM:
I think as you say it is of course down to personal choice, I know the 610 is a good machine, i was unfortunate to get a bad one, the only thing that puts me off them is simply the fact i had it repaired once under warranty within two months of paying out £450 and when it was returned there was no difference to the fault what so ever. I have used Elmo's now non stop for over 35 years and i cant think of a more robust machine i would rather use, its reliable, easy to fix and defiantly has one of the best light and sound outputs of anything in its price bracket. not one of my films has been damaged by ours because we clean it after every use, and service them regularly. Like all things mechanical if you get this right they should be OK, of course i do know that if allowed to wear they can and do scratch films. Looking at the state of some films out there its scary that other manufacturers ever got some of the machines onto market. I would defiantly get another 610 but wouldn't want to pay more than around 250/300 tops.
The Bauer is a lovely design, for as long as spares are available like the elmos they will be kept going for many years, but they must all be well maintained and used.
my happy ending was getting the full refund and getting back to the machines that had given me over 35 years of reliable service and still do,these are used almost daily even if only a 200 footer.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 10, 2016, 05:56 PM:
Daily use is everything Tom.
If you have no desire to ever record or listen or run anything at true running speed, the ST, with your range of spares plus Bills expert servicing, is without doubt, a very nice machine to match in use, the HD especially which has a fantastic heads and for the most part a great powerful amplifier without too much sophistication for slaving out as an option.
A very well assembled and manufactured, robust machine that just needed updating in the 80's to make it on par with the very best imho regarding film path and drive mechanism.
Same for the outdated GS 1200 film path among it's otherwise fine attributes...
BTW the above, initially wasn't meant as a summary review to our machines, only film paths and their designs.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 10, 2016, 08:50 PM:
Andrew, thank you for that excellent discussion of the merits of the 610 threading design, I don't think anyone on this forum has ever pointed that out before. I for one was certainly not aware of the superiority of this design over just about all the other super 8 high end projectors, and when you think about it, total non-contact with the threading guides during run should have been the number one requirement for all auto-threading projectors.
Unfortunately it seems that no single projector has all the design features that we collectors consider important, but some definitely come a lot closer than others.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 11, 2016, 06:29 AM:
Very true Paul there is no one perfect machine out there. Nor is there one collector who will agree with everyone about whatever projector they use. I go my my own, (and some professional repairers), advice in making purchases etc.
As Andy said, if i wanted a machine for top recording facilities i would definatly hunt down a pristine T610, for viewing for us its the Elmo HDs which we use, or the Eumig 822 Sonomatic i must say though Andy, i have never had a problem with the running speed though.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 06:32 AM:
Try recording on it Tom, then you'll hear and see how accurate the transport speed is on these, or for that matter, any other friction disc designed machine for its main drive from an a.c. motor source.
Thanks Paul btw.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 11, 2016, 06:35 AM:
no ta, i do watching
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 08:07 AM:
Bet you'd still like to record some occasionally though Tom!
We all do watching, that's why we record them.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 11, 2016, 09:46 AM:
Stephan Binder at Super8Film in Vienna is offering a Bauer T610 Stereo for 299 Euros.
http://www.super8film.at/en_index.htm
Go to Tonfilmprojektoren.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 09:57 AM:
Yes Maurice, this is one of the ones Miguel here was considering purchasing. I don't know if he decided on one of them or not yet though.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 11, 2016, 11:38 AM:
I have bought projectors from Stephan Binder, he is more accessible than some unknown sellers on eBay.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 11, 2016, 11:45 AM:
Yes he is very good I've heard Maurice. His goods are usually faultless I believe.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on April 11, 2016, 11:59 AM:
so were Van Eks,he he, Andy, i have never recorded in my life other than my own home movies years ago, (too time consuming) then we used the excellent Eumig 940,
Have to say those T610s on the website are are a good price, much lower than i paid, (then got back ), as long they survive the journey, mine didn't, twice and it could not have been packed any better.
By the way, i'm not disrespecting these machines, only telling my own horror story and what i found compared to machines ive used for over 35 years, as ive said, if i could find one for a good price within the UK i would buy again, i think they are just too much plastic & very fragile. They look superb, they perform so quietly and if you are for recording these and GS 1200s have to be the best along with the Eumig 940.
Don't take the banter the wrong way you folks. I just felt very let down by it all, it was a huge anti-climax. Films i watched for years suddenly had to have the volumes up so far what i got was hum or hiss along with the movie, track two was piss poor and the plastic switches were so feeble they broke in transit. Twice. We watch all our movies via stereo amps so it wasn't us using the built in speakers. To top it all off we also had a faulty 1.2 lens which showed up on screen as a light red patch in the centre of the image, when it came back from the repair it had the same faulty lens. Just ensure what you buy is working 100%, and test it with a stereo film. I left it until two months in, if i hadn't have put a stereo film through i would have missed the warranty.
Bitter old me
BTW, i do my own servicing and send to Mr Parsons if electrical faults develop, and whilst they are with him i then ask for the machine to have a full service. Whilst its in the hands of an expert i'd be daft not to.
Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on April 13, 2016, 01:03 PM:
I have a Bauer 500 series as main machine,and love it. very similar to the 600 range but cheaper. the only real issue I have is the level of hum on playback,which is quite high.
I don't record,or use stereo,so my 502 with the f1.1 lens really is all I need. I don't even mind the 800 ft capacity,since this size reel is cheap and easy to store.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 13, 2016, 01:37 PM:
The 525 and 610 are accepted as being a little better for the hum issue than earlier models like the T600.
The transformer was sited differently I believe on the later models which apparently does help reduce the hum.
Dave try one of the ground loop isolators if you use yours with a separate amplifier. It will really help here.
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