8mm Forum: Disney's "The Old Mill" question ...

This is topic Disney's "The Old Mill" question ... in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010629

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 12, 2016, 11:39 AM:

Folks, I just ran across a LPP print of this title, which was nice, except that about 45 seconds or so into print, (when the bluebird actually lands and feeds the worm to his mate), the print goes very bluish and then, about thirty seconds before the film ends, it flashes back and forth between bluish and proper color ...

Please tell me that this was just a one-off botched print, or are all the LPP (I'm assuming Derann, as this print was originally released by WDHM's not on LPP but fadey Eastman), prints the same way?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 12, 2016, 12:12 PM:

Mine is fine from end to end. It's a great cartoon: just a hint of Fantasia in the works.

What came as a bonus was a cinema advert reel that the first owner spliced onto the end.

-three Birmingham shops: a camera shop, a beautician and an appliance store from the 1960s. Bolexes, big hair and blenders!

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on April 12, 2016, 01:42 PM:

I have one Derann, and it is fine. Only that the opening credits are maybe too saturated or too much towards red (NOT towards magenta), but the rest is simply fine.

I love this Silly Symphony!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on April 12, 2016, 05:30 PM:

Derann's Old Mill prints are usually exceptional so I think you got a slight print fault copy.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 12, 2016, 11:33 PM:

Bought a brand new print from Derann probably around a year before they closed and the picture quality is excellent right through.

However, and this brought a tear to my eye [Frown]

was coming across a stunning 35mm print. I was over the moon until the sound went bad half way through. I ran it a number of times and it was always at the same spot where it went bad. I guess that's why the print looked so good, It was something I had never come across before [Frown]

...poop

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 13, 2016, 12:06 PM:

That's what I was thinking. Sigh, I'll hold out for a good one.

The funny thing is the one I have already is the original WDHM print, but there is the slightest shift in color. It's probably a 9 out of 10 color-wise, but I'd love to see this from a good Derann printing.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 13, 2016, 02:31 PM:

By the way Osi.. those early US Disney prints that I still have, the color although has :a bit of fade" are still pretty good.

Unlike a lot of other early US Disney shorts that have gone totally red, "The Old Mill" is one that has held up well color wise over the years.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 14, 2016, 03:52 PM:

I have a Derann print that's very nice - not extremely sharp but good. I recently got a Disney print that's very badly faded, but well worth the very low sum I paid in order to get the original box to put the Derann print in!

An interesting point regarding the Derann release is that it was several years before the Derann/Disney deal, so it was a very unusual case of Disney letting another distributor re-release one of their own releases. I seem to recall that Derann also re-released another Disney short at the same time - can anyone remember what the other one was? I only wish The Sorceror's Apprentice had been part of the deal as I'm finding it extremely difficult to find a Disney LPP print, although I'm told they exist!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 15, 2016, 11:19 AM:

They do exist. Gin Luca Loncrini, (used to post here some years ago), came across a beautiful LPP print, but I don't know if it was the original WDHM version (with that awesome box for it).

Thank you very much, Adrian, as you answered a question that I had about that print that I just had. It was LPP, but the leader was not like the standard Derann film leader on a print, but looked like the original Disney leader, so I was thinking that this was a re-print of the WDHM title, but I had no evidence. I also noticed that this print, advertised as a Derann printing, certainly didn't have the sharpness of you're standard Disney/Derann "Silly Symphony" release. Many Kudos, Adrian ...

Was this re-released, later, during the Disney/Derann deal?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 15, 2016, 12:39 PM:

Osi - I've checked the leader of my Derann print of 'The Old Mill', which I bought new from them, and I can confirm that this has nothing that reveals it was printed by Derann.

I managed to find these words in the Derann June 1984 newsletter: "Prints of Disney's THE OLD MILL are now on the way, again this was quality which had held up the prints, but the check print we have now seen is beautiful." Other subsequent newsletters show 'The Old Mill' listed with 'Best of Friends' and 'Test of Courage', and offered for £14.95 instead of for discounted prices, so I think these were the other titles that Disney allowed Derann to print.

The first catalogue Derann produced after the main Disney deal (November 1991) includes 'The Old Mill' but not the other two.

Derann newsletters refer to Disney winding up their 8mm division in 1982. If they printed LPP copies of 'The Sorceror's Apprentice' and anything else, it therefore seems quite likely that there was only one LPP batch of the film(s) in question. I'm sure there are some pirated reprints of certain titles - e.g. I have a print of 'A Walt Disney Christmas' that's LPP and preferable to a faded print, but it has an odd look to it that isn't quite right. But if a print of 'The Sorceror's Apprentice' looks excellent, that could point to it being genuine, as it's a title that you can imagine them printing as part of any final order.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 15, 2016, 01:02 PM:

All the Disney sorcerer's prints up in Derann's used list were listed with "slight colour fade".

I bought one of them like 14 years ago and the colors were very slightly red shifted, but haven't become any worse.

I only wish this was the worst faded print I have.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 15, 2016, 01:35 PM:

I think that when Disney (UK) stopped selling prints they (or the lab0 sold the reamaning stocks to LGP cine (Larry Pierce}. When he had the Rayners Lane shop the very large basement was filled with the 50ft & 200ft not to mention his 16mm to double 8 film re-perforating machines.
I think when that closed Derann bought them as I bought a couple at Derann's closing down last day for £1 each unboxed.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 15, 2016, 08:15 PM:

I think both LPG and Derann bought large amounts of Disney stock. But Derann referred to a deal involving Buck labs so at least some of their stock was films that Buck expected to eventually sell to Disney but never did. Some of these were still offered in Derann's 1991 catalogue, which stated that they were not "stock" films and so would not be available after the last prints were sold. Considering how long after 1982 some of these were available, some of the print runs were wildly optimistic.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 16, 2016, 04:28 AM:

Yes, that would explain some of the "Adult" films they were selling with Buck Film Labs leaders, usually in their "bargain bins" on open days.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 16, 2016, 04:45 AM:

One or two people on friendly terms with labs gave me an insight into tbe surprising amount of printing that went on in advance of actual orders, with labs taking the view that it was convenient to print more while using specific negatives. There are staggering but true stories that indicate that certain lab staff had little knowledge of the retail value of the product they were producing. At least one collector would visit Buck and chat to a certain staff member who would casually hand him a 'complimentary' copy of films that included releases like 'The Fall of the Roman Empire', which must have cost over £400 when first released!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 16, 2016, 11:34 AM:

I was looking at a 2001 Derann webpage ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20010410053330/http://www.derann.co.uk/main.htm

... and in the Disney section as well as the cartoon section, it doesn't list "The Old Mill", so I'm wondering if this was an earlier available print, and from those "pre-Disney/Derann deal" negatives. If that is the case, I'll just have to keep searching and hope for the best.

Please note folks, for those who do not know, Derann is no longer in business, so please don't bother yourselves with "contacting" Derann concerning prints. The above link is for entertainment only, (hey, there are bound to be newbies who don't know that Derann is gone ..... sniff)

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on April 16, 2016, 11:58 AM:

Just checked the Derann 2006-2007 catalogue and The Old Mill is there on page 10 in the Disney shorts section.

Graham

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 16, 2016, 03:09 PM:

Actually still on there last day's web page as seen here http://derannlists.co.uk/derann/8c.php.
I can't remember who saved the pages and set up that site, but thanks to him.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on April 18, 2016, 01:39 AM:

I can't be 100% certain but I'd be very surprised if the 1991 Derann/Disney deal resulted in Disney supplyimg Derann with a different negative to 'The Old Mill'. They would have sold a lot of copies to satisfied customers by then.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 18, 2016, 11:28 AM:

Thanks for all the help, lads! I'll begin my search in general for this great film, but cautious as to the origin and when it was printed, as I don't want to run into one of those early ones again.

Man, I so totally love this forum, (and well, all the film forums, too!)

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on May 29, 2016, 05:36 AM:

I've just picked up a print of this, and while the original lab leader is still attached, and likes like good colour (the CMYK overlay on the leader looks fine) the actual print itself does lean heavily towards magenta. It's an Eastman print, so would that be a Disney print?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 29, 2016, 06:18 AM:

I bought this new from Derann in May 1996 at a cost of £22.99. It was obviously a newish master as it opens with the Buena Vista distribution title. It's on LPP stock.
I have just taken it out of its box and the colour is still gorgeous.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on May 29, 2016, 11:35 AM:

My copy on "Eastman Kodak 10 Safety film" pre-striped still has good CYM legends both ends and consistent colour throughout. It was an early purchase in the two part Disney box with Buena Vista Distributors at the start. It does look a bit brown but the mill is wood so I'm not sure if that is fade or not - the frogs do still look green.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on May 29, 2016, 06:50 PM:

Anyone with an original Disney print with quite good colour is fortunate as some the one I got was very badly faded. I'm not complaining, though, as I bought it cheaply to get the box to put my Derann print in!

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on May 30, 2016, 03:37 AM:

Brian, that's sounds just like my print. I'd say the colours are muted more than faded.

Posted by Luis Caramelo (Member # 2430) on May 30, 2016, 04:59 AM:

just for curiosaty.i took my old mil print from the cool yesterday and i running it this morning and it,s great color print and shows at the start the logo of buena vista,i paid for this print 10pounds about 5years ago,i was lucky i guess,,,

best:
luis caramelo

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on May 30, 2016, 11:02 AM:

High Everybody,

I have compared my "Old Mill" Derann (around 86 / 88 year) Print with the DVD issue*, it's just the same concerning colours and sharpness....

*Disney Treasures, Silly Symphonies, 2 DVD, steel box.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2