8mm Forum: Severe sanity check required to stay in cine

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Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 22, 2016, 04:34 PM:

Adam, i am sure you will sell The empire strikes back, and i know it will be great quality, but just looking on here recently at what films are being sold for what i think is barmy money is the very thing that's making me and my Brother think very hard as to weather to call it a day with cine. We probably wont jump out just now but looking at what’s being asked for some films is, (in my opinion), is laughable. We also have another thread selling the pod race asking £100, the film barley runs 13 minutes. Yes i fully understand it's all about supply and demand etc but over a grand for a movie? And clearly more and more long term collectors now selling some top titles clearly appear to be selling up while the goings good. Maybe? I am evening seeing prints going with scratches and what is described as pinking, i am sorry but i just dont get it. We are bemused by it all and if a film can fetch over a grand what's the point of it being sat on shelf for years without being viewed.
I set up my digital projector and watch a great film not available on super 8, The Mission in widescreen with 5:1 Dolby sound, the picture was perfect and there was no fade and not a single line or splice in sight, oh and no reel changes.
Would i prefer it on super 8, you bet i would, but it's never been available, would the sound on cine be as good? No way, If it was available would it be fading? probably, would it be line free? Probably not, if i had a copy would i have got it for £2.99, not a chance.
I am very very loyal to super 8 and have been a collector for 38 years but looking around at the cost of films that are actually worth buying is seriously making me question continuing.
The people selling off top titles are not chaps who have inherited, they are respected collectors.
Does anyone else on here get tired of spending good money with dealers only to receive shit thats scratched, fading, damaged or all three? I Know i am. [Wink]

Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on June 22, 2016, 05:49 PM:

Well Tom you hit the nail right on it's head. Thanks to film going digital. Film is now in great demand, it's in the same league as CD's vs vinyl with popularity.

Unless you can afford choice cult classics, then it's either a dvd or blu-ray. Though as most people know on this forum the quality is not always equaled or bettered for that matter. Like a vinyl record digital has no character in it's pure form like film.

And take it from me there is now a new generation of kids on the block, out there who embrace film not so much in collecting commercial made films. But also shooting and making films on Super 8. This year alone i have seen a great surge and interest in Super 8 period and film formats.

Even at one time the very cheap 35mm equivalent features have now gone through the roof. It's all down to it's popularity and it's becoming more and more main stream then before. This is more then thanks to social media and finding it easy to obtain prints that once where only known to a selected few before eBay and google came along.

Now as we all know dealing with film dealers vs collectors like me and there is a few on this forum that i can mention. You will find that the main reoccurring excuse is that they don't have time to check every print. Which to me is nonsense. I can count on one hand how many film dealers i know to avoid. To be quite honest with you i don't bother with most. As like you i have been disappointed over the years of collecting. The only people i could trust was either Derann or Paul Foster and no one else. Even a few of the new dealers which i won't mention i will not trust from past experiences.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on June 22, 2016, 06:15 PM:

Tom

I agree with what you are saying, I don't buy much these days since Derann closed [Frown]

Although I still enjoy film, Super 8 is mostly for shorts like "Look at Life" or Disney "Silly Symphony" that type of thing. An example how things have changed though, I put on for the grandkids "A Bugs Life" and Steven Spielberg Peter Jackson "Tintin" on Blu-ray projected on a VP lately and both looked and sounded just great [Cool]

...price wise Tintin was only $10 dollars.

Tom I would certainly hang onto your projectors and films, don't sell them, both film and Blu-ray projected do have there place. [Smile]

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on June 22, 2016, 06:39 PM:

The sky-high prices being asked for films even extend to family home movies. A seller on eBay recently listed eight 50' reels together with a plastic storage box. The lot sold for £27 plus postage. In contrast, I can buy feature films in VHS format from charity shops for 20p. DVDs are a little dearer - £1.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 22, 2016, 07:26 PM:

Tom see the other forum, I know you already have but it has been extended in chat since!

Robert here makes some superb observations and comments btw Tom. Take note my friend! [Wink]

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on June 22, 2016, 08:23 PM:

It really depends what you collect. Most of what I own, of course, has gone DOWN in price, so if I were ever to sell, it would be at a loss. The majority of my collection is old, classic, B&W comedies -- Laurel and Hardy and other Blackhawks, Castles, and Universal 8s. Dime a dozen these days.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on June 22, 2016, 11:22 PM:

Will: I have noticed home movies getting auctioned off on eBay and it seems rather tragic. How did these movies end up in the hands of strangers? I have to believe that somewhere there are members or friends of the family who would treasure those movies if they only knew they existed.

But I suppose one never knows. Not everyone has a healthy family and maybe in some cases those that are still around would just as soon forget their past.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on June 23, 2016, 03:19 AM:

But this hobby has always been expensive. I remember I was 10 or something when Star Wars feature was announced for $400 from the LA films Catalog. That was as far away to me as an Elmo GS1200. I had to make do with my Chinon POS.
Fast forward to now and the price seems about right! Sadly it shouldn't but it does. Certain films always seem to command a certain amount of $$$. Any of the Star Wars films will go for $600+. Aliens, Goldfinger, ET, Close Encounters, Independence Day, etc. It is expensive and lets face it.. we should all have our heads examined! [Smile]

But at the end of the day...I still love my films.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 23, 2016, 04:03 AM:

Its true to say as Alan points here, if this is a hobby you have always been involved in, rather than just beginning to become involved in, then it is no more expensive now RELATIVELY, than it ever was.

Yes the films are not new anymore,but if they have been carefully looked after, even some of the very highest prices you come across (with perhaps the exception of Star Wars and Empire) don't work out any more expensive than they ever were if you factor in inflation since the days they were made.

As everyone knows, these products were never cheap and for many when new,at that time of my life, a large collection of top titled features was nothing more than a pipe dream.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on June 23, 2016, 08:17 AM:

It's always priorities.

I want new films and better and better projectors and sound equipment. I need my family to have a decent home, good food and my kid to get a usable education. I never allow the wants to get in the way of the needs.

Many, many times I see some spectacular print come up at prices way beyond my means and I just walk away. If somebody really wants it that badly and can pay that much and still keep the groceries coming, more power to them.

-If not, maybe in a few weeks it will be back at a price I could consider.

-If not, life will go on without it just fine.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 23, 2016, 08:28 AM:

Horses for courses of course, as with anything in life!

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on June 23, 2016, 03:13 PM:

any one that buys from me buys with complete confidence i watch and check all films all the way trough before i sell to give a true and honest description ,and in the event of an unhappy customer i will always sort out the problem

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 23, 2016, 03:29 PM:

Very well put there Steve, yes it is very true, our hobby, (like many), can be expensive, certainly as expensive as one wishes to spend, we will not be selling up now having had a chat with the Brother. We do between us have a reasonably extensive collection with over 400 titles and over a 150 promo's trailers to go with it, my Elmo's are currently going through a good maintenance and service programme so it would be wasteful to sell up at this time.
I did look at him after a good show with Once upon a time in the West tonight and uttered those famous words, we can sell if you really want to but, Once its gone you will not get it back. Ever. I think that swayed him enough. We do of course agree that while the digital projection is excellent, there is a magic of reel film, we just need blinkers to avoid even spotting the barmy prices being asked for some films.
Tom Spielman, like you i am bemused at anyone selling off there personal home movies. I just dont get that at all. They are real treasure & should be kept as such for generations.
Remember that scene in National Lampoons Christmas vacation when Chevy Chase is locked in the attic and finds the projector & home movies, and the tears as he is watching himself as a child on super 8 film?
That is a great scene in an otherwise average comedy.Cant believe people actually bung that sort of treasure on ebay. [Wink]

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on June 23, 2016, 05:13 PM:

Not all of the companies offering cine to DVD transfers will return your films unless you pay the postage. I can imagine that some customers wouldn't want their films back once they are on DVD so the transfer company has to dispose of them. Again, some home movies will be from house clearances and others will have been donated to charity shops. This eBay listing takes the biscuit though!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-roll-of-amateur-home-movie-vintage-8mm-film-in-a-75mm-spool-Kodachrome-/282070331114?hash=item41acb3aeea:g:4BoAAOSw5VFWQlny

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 24, 2016, 11:18 AM:

I actually keep omn hoping that prices will go down on this glorious stuff, as we aren't the richest of collectors.

Don't part with it, you'll regret it, maybe not today or tomorrow ... but soon!

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on June 24, 2016, 06:17 PM:

Tom - Very relieved to hear you are not quitting the hobby. I have been on this forum only for about 4 months now and consider yourself one of the main regular contributors to these threads and would be a great shame to lose you.
Yes, I agree the cost of buying films seems to have increased over the last couple of years on ebay but have a deep feeling it is only a passing phase that will settle down later.If it means there are more people jumping on our band wagon at the moment and enjoying seeing their moving images projected "the proper way" then it must be healthy for us.However,some may just find this a passing fad,sorry to say, and move on.
The other problem we have to contend with, which annoys both you and myself and probably many more of our fraternity is the fading of the colour prints and hardly any new prints coming out.A fact of life we have to live with in this specialist medium nowadays.

You particularly mention how many times you buy prints only to find they are scratched / faded etc which disillusions you. Me too! You have admitted to owning 400+ films and 150+ trailers. Isn't it time to just sit back again and enjoy the ones you already have? That is a hell of a lot of screen time!

.

Posted by Paul Suchy (Member # 80) on June 25, 2016, 07:59 AM:

Good advice, Melvin. Sit back and enjoy. I have a good selection of features, digests, and trailers in different genres and I've decided not to buy any more film. The obsession to upgrade titles I have has become tiresome and I've had enough. I feel much better knowing that my shopping days are over and I can enjoy what's here. I know there are better prints out there but I don't care anymore (for me, that's a good thing). Does my print of The Wizard of Oz have issues? Yup. But it's the one I have and that's it. Are there scratches on some of my used digests? You bet. My friends and family aren't that critical anyway and enjoy what I show them. As for prices (the original topic before I went off), I've overpaid for stuff I wasn't patient enough to wait for, but I have had some pretty good bargains also. The main thing I've kept in mind over the years is the potential for repeated viewing. At least the films I paid too much for have been run enough to justify the cost. My friends would love for me to buy a full print of Empire Strikes Back, but they still enjoy the digests that I have and request them all too often (come on, guys, I have other films!).

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on June 25, 2016, 11:06 AM:

The problem we all face is Anno Domini. When I started collecting some 50 odd years ago there was little available for outright sale and most library prints were not that old. But film has been overtaken and we have nothing new to buy. We have been landed with V.S. and colour fade to add to the scratches that the passing years and numerous owners have introduced. Our machines (however lovingly looked after) are old and left behind by modern technology. My best prints barely compare with the latest Blu-ray offerings. But film and it's equipment and digital and it's machinery are both different, and I love them both. I love digital for it's perfect enjoyment. I love film because I'm a closet cinema manager, and when the film begins I'm in charge. O.K. Prices are ridiculous for the most wanted stuff but I'm happy with them on dvd. Let the rich spend their money for stuff that will eventually fade. I'll buy my old Hop-along Cassidy, Old Mother Riley and Ginger Rogers shorts (with the odd scratch of course) and enjoy every minute and if a dealer sends me what he wouldn't buy himself, he'll very quickly get it returned. Film was always dear but at least we could buy new stuff. Now we can't. That's where we are and nothing is going to change soon. So, latest films on blu-ray and anyhing I see that I fancy (and can afford) on film. It's a wonderful world.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 25, 2016, 02:59 PM:

Melvin,thank you for your kind words that's very much appreciated. When my brother came down Thursday For our weekly showing, One of the things I did come up with was very much in the same vein as what you said about enjoying what we have, I suggested that we will start a programme Beginning September the 1st,we are going to set up four projectors and each day,(maybe missing a day here and there), we are going to work our way through the entire collection to ensure each and every film is viewed, this way everything will be checked for fade and general condition and logged,as they already are so many of our films havnt been viewed in years, every evening all but a few will be a film evening even its its just a couple of shorts. I tried to work out how long it will take but my own guess is, a year or more. [Wink]

Obviously The point of four projectors is make sure we don't wear one out. Not to show four at once. [Big Grin]

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on June 25, 2016, 04:24 PM:

I'm not a film collector but I wonder how much of the pleasure comes from the "collecting" as opposed to the "having". It probably varies from person to person but I would imagine that part of the fun is in hunting down and obtaining different films.

As a kid I had model rockets. When getting them I had a rule that I should launch them at least once. That was the point after all, - to fly them. Right? But as I got older I got more patient in building them and took greater care in preparing the balsa wood and doing the painting. To launch a rocket (as cool as it was) was to risk damage and maybe even loss. There was one rocket in my collection that had two stages and a glider. I just loved the white paint and green decals. The probability of retrieving all the pieces intact after a launch was not high, so it just stayed on the work bench even though I really did want to see it fly.

The rockets that did get flown were the expendable ones. Sometimes I followed my "at least one launch" rule with my more valued rockets but for others I just never got around to it. In the end though all the rockets were damaged or thrown out. They remained at my childhood home long after I moved away and my mom finally (and quietly) got rid of them. [Smile]

I'm not sure what the message is other than I get why just having a large collection in and of itself may not be satisfying. I liked getting the rockets and building the rockets. But looking back on it I think I regret not flying them more than not keeping them safe from my mother. Nothing lasts forever.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 26, 2016, 04:13 AM:

I think your right Tom, super 8 films are rare but obviously anyone in the hobby will want to buy films they want to see. One of the most important aspects of collecting the titles you want is to ensure you equally have a very good quality projector which will not damage the films, otherwise a cheap and nasty one,(theirs plenty out there), will render your collection virtually useless as well as bomb any enjoyment you would get viewing them. As well as this there is the maintainance part of the hobby and of course all trying our best to re-create the mini cinema experience with trailer reels, ad reels etc.
Not too sure if anyone would buy a film,(especially a full feature of hundreds of pounds, even over a thousand these days), to simply watch it once. [Wink]

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on June 26, 2016, 04:58 AM:

Tom P. - You have just talked yourself back into the hobby! Welcome home! Tell your brother you have decided it is onwards and upwards from now on !!!!

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on June 26, 2016, 07:23 AM:

I have but he cant come around every day. [Big Grin]

It'l be doing the long viewing, this way by during the long programme i will decide what can be moved on, although i dont think it will too much.

Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on June 26, 2016, 07:58 AM:

Hi Tom,

I'm afraid i fall into this category - mainly because as a teacher - i seem to have less time at the moment to screen my prints and i know full well that i bought my full print of Alien about 5 or 6 years ago and ive only screened it once and the same applies to my copies of Gone with the wind, Robocop, Ben Hur and Dr Zhivago - in fact with all of my prints Super 8 and my small collection of 16mm - but the one thing that is important - whenever i want to - and have the time - i can go into my Den and screen something special on Super 8mm, 16mm or Blu ray via my LCD Projector.

Posted by John Hourigan (Member # 111) on June 26, 2016, 08:49 AM:

Wholeheartedly agree with you, Dave Groves. In terms of the film format, I limit my purchases primarily to black and white films as I have a low tolerance for any kind of print fade. With the outstanding quality offered by today's technology, and the age of many prints out there, I personally find it hard to justify buying a print that has the tell tale signs of fade.

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