8mm Forum: A Scratch - Elmo Film Guide Wear (Correct?)

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Posted by Peter Harrison (Member # 5290) on September 19, 2016, 03:37 AM:

Hello everyone,

So I know this is a topic brought up and discussed in other posts but I thought raising my question here with the aid of a picture might help me, as well as others seeking to diagnose Elmo scratches in the future.

So I noticed last night on screening a print of Beauty and the Beast that what I at first thought was a small piece of hair between the film and the lens is actually a scratch on the print [Frown]

As I'm using an Elmo ST-600 and am aware that the film guide is often an issue I dismantled it this morning. The most obvious oddity in looking the three pieces over is as follows:

As you can see there is a pretty deep (relatively speaking) gouge in the nylon where the edge of the film has been running against the side (this is also evident slightly on the other side). In addition, where this gouge ends on the right of the image the film seems to have worn the upper portion of the "gutter" slightly (where the arrow points).

Would you guys say that this might likely explain the scratching to my print that is occurring in the bottom left portion of the projected image? I'll attempt to post an image of the scratch on the film once it turns dark here.

Looking at the position of the added roller on the customized part available through Van-Eck Vid Services http://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0095.html I'm assuming I will need to replace it, but before splashing the cash I thought I'd ask if this wear is extreme enough (and the damage consistent with the fault) to be responsible.

Any feedback much appreciated!

Peter

P.S. In the mean time I guess I'll switch to my Eumig Mark S 810D. Which while also broken at the moment may be more readily fixable [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 19, 2016, 06:55 AM:

Yes Peter, this is one area on the Elmo, the new guide has roller here to stop this happening. This area is just under the first top sprocket which turns through quite a sharp right angle, and this is the wear you see. Also look at the lower loop former, this also can wear flat coursing the same problem. All fixable now.

Posted by Peter Harrison (Member # 5290) on September 19, 2016, 07:41 AM:

Ah, I thought as much.

What is slightly irksome, though many would likely say "to be expected when you pay so little for a projector", is that this single replacement piece will cost me more than I paid for the projector itself (not including postage). They go pretty cheap on Yahoo auctions here in Japan, you see.

It leaves me wondering whether I might be better off just throwing my time and money into repairing my dual gauge Eumig and taking a punt on another Elmo that will grant me larger reel capacity and potentially have guides in better condition.

It's a shame as this Elmo was my first projector in what is still for me a very young hobby. I'm otherwise very happy with it but perhaps it might better serve me as a spares machine (minus the film guide, obviously) or something just to tinker with.

Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud I suppose.

Thanks Paul!

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on September 19, 2016, 10:21 AM:

Peter, whilst I agree with others' replies, I am perplexed when you say bottom left side of the image: a scratch caused by the part you pictured, should consist of a permanent, endless line on the whole height of the frame not just the bottom. If the scratch is not as high as the whole frame, then it must be caused by something that gets in touch with the film intermittently, maybe before or after the film gate... [Confused]

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on September 19, 2016, 05:10 PM:

Maurizio is right. A scratch like that occurs somewhere between the upper or the lower loop. Usually it's one of the loops being a fraction too large or too small.
If you buy another Elmo with less wear on the guides, please bear in mind that those original guides wear pretty fast...
As we sometimes pay hundreds of dollars for rare, elusive prints, please don't be cheap on projectors or new replacement parts, as print damage is always irreversible...

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 19, 2016, 05:40 PM:

Cracking advice there Alexander! [Wink]

It's amazing how many decent films you see and read about here and elsewhere that have been completely ruined forever by faulty or crude film handling machines.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on September 19, 2016, 06:28 PM:

I think the metal guide from Wittner or from FFR is the answer to this and fits the GS 1200 as well if one upgrades from the ST600. I did exactly this moving my two metal guides from my two ST600s to my two GS machines.

Posted by Peter Harrison (Member # 5290) on September 19, 2016, 08:03 PM:

Thank you all for your replies.

I'll try and get a photo of the scratch to better illustrate the damage and perhaps find the correct cause. After dark taking care of my baby daughter occupies a lot of our time and due to living in a pretty tiny apartment running a projector once she's asleep can get me royally told off by the wife.

Thank you also for your input regarding giving the prints the projector they deserve. My hesitation is not necessarily in buying a new and less wear-prone part for an Elmo, but more for an Elmo that takes an identical maximum reel size to the Eumig I also currently own. I'm certainly not going to be risking prints on the Elmo-600 with the guides in their current state. I am considering taking a punt on a ST-1200 with dual track that would allow me to get at the English on my Spanish/English print of Aladdin. Should I do so, it will be a matter of taking a good look at the state of the guides at that point I think.

Cheers!

Peter

[ September 19, 2016, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Peter Harrison ]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2016, 04:36 AM:

A print as prestigious as a stereo Derann Aladdin feature film should only be placed through a tried and trusted mechanism in my opinion.

Any Elmo and other machines now carry the risk of worn nylon guides therefore it is for you to decide Peter, where those risks can be minimized by either purchasing a model which is renowned above all else for its kind film handling qualities or otherwise, if you do purchase an Elmo long play model, factor in a percentage of cost for the new upgraded nylon guide parts from Edwin as a minimum precaution.

It is the films themselves nowadays that have to be given the most consideration and respect.
They will never come around again and potentially, the best low fade prints have many many years of life left in them, but only if preserved well.

A decent machine in top order will allow you to enjoy these type of films hundreds and hundreds of times.
A bad machine in poor condition would most likely give you only a handful of opportunities at best.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 20, 2016, 06:53 AM:

What machine do you suggest Andrew ? ,does it begin with "B " and end in er ?.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 20, 2016, 07:09 AM:

I would suggest any good make that is tried and tested but above all else, kept up to scratch,(no punn intended) [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2016, 07:10 AM:

Any mate so long as they are tried and tested.

All my own personal favourites just so happen to originate from Europe as you are acutely aware Paul, but each to their own so long as they have maximum trust in their machine.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 20, 2016, 12:29 PM:

Perhaps you could get a GS from van Eck, would that qualify ?.

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on September 20, 2016, 12:45 PM:

Peter,
I also love bauer 500/600 series,never had any issues with damage since using them.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 20, 2016, 01:30 PM:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2016, 01:31 PM:

You never will have David until the cam or follower or both wears out.

Once it won't frame correctly, time to inspect and adjust / lubricate or change those mentioned parts to continue to avoid any scratch risks.

Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on September 20, 2016, 04:29 PM:

Besides repairing or replacing the the nylon guide before the upper sprocket of the Elmo, you should also check the lower film tensioner. I"m not sure if you have it on your machine but its a black plastic bar that lowers onto the film before the lower sprocket engages the film.

When the lower film tensioner is working properly, it should only touch the film along the edges of the sprocket area. After thirty or more years of wear on that plastic part, the image area of your film could eventually rub against this plastic part.

One quick fix is reshaping the piece with a soldering iron or you could replace the lower film tensioner with some type of homemade roller.

The Elmo ST-1200 HD's lower film tensioner has a good design and is what should have been used in their GS and ST series machines.

As far as the wear on that nylon guide, there are ways you can repair the guide. One is using a metal file to reshape parts of the guide or cutting a hole in the bottom of the guide to add a roller.

If you didn't want to repair it on your own, you could look at purchasing a replacement from van Eck or metal guide from Wittner. I have the metal guide from Wittner and like it, but it's too expensive considering it's just a guide.

In the area you live in Peter, there might be a former Elmo repair specialist that could help bring your Elmo machine back to peak performance. Retro 8, which is located near Tokyo Sky Tree, offers projector repair. http://www.retro8.com/service/mente.html
I would call them up and ask how good their projector technician, Mr. Shigeru Aoki, is with Elmo projector repair.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2016, 05:23 PM:

Most effective and decent spare parts are all expensive sadly Jason.
However, the point made earlier by Alexander is a highly valid point among all of this.
If you are to invest thousands in irreplaceable film prints, isn't it better to simply surround yourself with peace of mind by investing some money into the machines themselves?

They are all a minimum of 25-30 years old now in almost all cases. The fact WE CAN reinvest in these machines to give them a whole new lease of life now, by having the kind of vital spare parts like Edwin and Daniel provide, can surely only be a good thing over the long term to allow anyone who is willing to invest in these spares, an opportunity to enjoy these films for another 25-30 years minimum.

What is too expensive if it gives you this level of service and peace of mind?

In my case for machines I simply could never have afforded when new any of them.

All in all, I have still saved an absolute fortune for the same product by purchasing it 25 years later and then buying all the spare parts I am ever likely to ever need for it versus what I'd have spent buying it from new.

[ September 20, 2016, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Peter Harrison (Member # 5290) on September 20, 2016, 08:42 PM:

Hi Jason,

I've been in to Retro8 a couple of times and have had some processing and scanning of Super 8 I've filmed myself done by them. I've found them very nice people to deal with but as for repair I have not used them. I'll look into it.

Have you yourself used them for projector repair at all? According to their website they sell a GS-1200 for approximately $2400 (241500yen) and a Xenon with an f1.1 lens for around $7000 (735000yen) so they may be a tad out of my price range.

To be honest though I do rather enjoy repairing things myself and I anticipate watching a print on a projector I've returned to working condition myself to be all the sweeter as an experience. I've learned an important lesson in thoroughly and regularly testing the mechanism before running a coveted print through such a machine, however.

I've received the parts necessary to complete the repair of my Eumig Mark S 810D today so for now at least I'm going to turn my attention to that and put the Elmo in the timeout corner of the room with its film guides removed as punishment (though in fairness I'm the guilty party).　I'll also keep my eyes peeled for a Bauer that might be in my price range.

Cheers all,

Peter

P.S. Planning on screening Modern Times on regular 8mm this evening should the Eumig repair go as planned and will switch the sprockets and plates in order to capture an image of the Beauty and the Beast damage if we do get around to it.

Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on September 20, 2016, 11:07 PM:

Peter,

I've been servicing my Elmo's on my own but I would like to find someone here in Japan who has extensive experience working on them.

I've stumbled across a few projector repair shops that have an online presence in Japan but wonder if there are any that were Elmo authorized service centers. I'm going to see if I can find one.

I have never utilized Retro 8's repair services but I have a feeling that might be a good place to start. For the price that Retro charges for a used GS-1200 that I'm assuming they refurbished, I have a feeling their repair services may be a little too expensive. It wouldn't hurt to ask though.

There's a projector repair specialist that I know in my area but he's in his eighties and mostly repairs 16mm machines.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 21, 2016, 04:06 AM:

Peter, I think if you are experiencing problems finding a suitable repairer in Japan to fix an Elmo its native home after all, do you not think it would be even more difficult to find some one to repair a bauer?, perhaps you should speak to Tom about his experience with the bauer he bought before you venture into the unknown, rather the devil you know ?.

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on September 21, 2016, 06:36 AM:

Paul,
I seem to have amused you.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 21, 2016, 06:51 AM:

No David, its just that when we get this kind of problem on the forum with an Elmo machine, the Elmo verse's every other machine on planet seems to take place, its just a matter of who mentions it first, nothing personal David I can assure you. They both fine machines, but just like dogs, the bad one's come back to bite you on the butt.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on September 21, 2016, 08:38 AM:

Although I'd opt for the Van Eck option in relation to a GS, I've renovated worn guides on a couple of more basic Elmos. It probably helps if you have reasonably good craft skills. The technique, which another collector suggested to me many years ago, involves use of a small amount of a hard-setting glue such as Araldite. Using something like a cocktail stick while the mixed glue is still pliable, you carefully fill any gaps and remake any ridge that elevates the edge of the film slightly. Some precision is needed but in my experience such repairs can work well. The Araldite is probably more durable than the original plastic.

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on September 21, 2016, 10:56 AM:

Paul,
thanks for reply,now you've explained your point,its fair comment.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 22, 2016, 02:51 AM:

Tom's projector was ok aside from a worn out sound head and a faulty lens from what I can gather.

Otherwise, he said he'd like to find another in the future from what I remember.

He certainly wasn't screaming blue murder that his new (to him) machine was scratching every print he put through it!
Nor would he ever have done!!

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 22, 2016, 04:02 AM:

But was never really the experience likely to encourage any one else to buy one, who you kidding.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 22, 2016, 04:03 AM:

No one, ever.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 22, 2016, 06:47 AM:

Hey all, i was looking around last night and thinking about all our equipment.
Spending too much money on keeping them all going is great and of course essential if we are to go on for many more years watching our movies. However,
Isn't there a lot of reasonably price projectors out there? I know you have to be careful etc etc but i dont recall there being such a time where there are so many good machines going for prices that often are lower than getting older ones repaired. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 22, 2016, 07:19 AM:

You're right of course Tom, there are.
My only issue with continually buying more and more projectors and just simply discarding a faulty one or perhaps keeping it for spares, is simply that I look upon these things like used cars.
By that I mean, I tend to buy my cars from nearly new, say around six months old, and then keep them for as long as they can last before costing me a fortune to maintain.

I prefer this method simply because, this way, you become very very familiar with its behaviours, you know the entire history of the car and all of its repairs and I've found by using this method of ownership throughout my adult life so far, it represents the best value for money for me so far as cars are concerned.

Similarly, once I've owned a projector a number of years and learned all of its quirks and behaviours, I find myself enjoying this familiarity and then I know what it needs and when if things are less than perfect.

By continually swapping machines, I don't believe I'd ever feel entirely comfortable in the manner I do today by sticking with what I know and trust in.
For me personally, I'd rather just have 3 or 4 that I continue to maintain rather than regularly swapping and changing models.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on September 23, 2016, 04:13 AM:

What really makes me angry is that you don't notice your print has been scratched on those over rated and over engineered Elmo
GS 1200s and their ilk until the next run of the print.
They scratched a pristine feature film of mine all the way through down the right hand side.
Hundreds of pounds spent down the bloody drain, a ruined print and
all because the manufacturer couldn't get the film path right. [Mad]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 23, 2016, 06:43 AM:

Must admit, ive only ever had the ST1200HD's, The ST800 and the ST600, very rarely used the 600 as i dont like the front guides, but the GS is one i always wanted but they are expensive if they go wrong and they are well over engineered, good machines though once you get the modified front guide.
I think the 1200HD is certainly one of the most reliable and easy to fix.(mechanically) [Wink]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 23, 2016, 07:54 AM:

What bad luck David. Many thousands of feet of film later we are much wiser about the GS and other Elmo guides, I guess I've been lucky with my machines with all the mods done before my owner ship, but I'm always on my guard with any projector no matter what the make or model.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 23, 2016, 09:06 AM:

My angle on this is just because any of these machines starts scratching prints 40 years down the line doesn't make them bad designs.

How many TV sets from the mid 70's are still on the job, how many cars, stoves, dishwashers or blenders?

-all of this stuff has been replaced 3 times over by now. The problem if you're a movie projector is the relief troops aren't coming!

The great thing about this Forum is because of it we know what to expect and are on guard for it. Two weeks ago my ST-1200HD's lower guide started to show some wear and I saw it before it caused me grief. 20 years ago I would have figured it out after my prints were chopmeat!

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on September 23, 2016, 12:00 PM:

ive had about 7 st1200"s in my time and only gave up on them after finding about a third of all my films damaged with twin green scratches all the way through.
such a shame because in every other respect,the elmo was my ideal machine,but I just cant trust them anymore.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 23, 2016, 12:10 PM:

Blimey David, two green scratches is bad, i know when the guides wear they can make a single line down the right but green scratches is something i have never encountered. Sorry to hear that though as clearly one or more of your films have been ruined.
[Frown]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on September 23, 2016, 05:29 PM:

I have been wondering of late of what would be involved in completely replacing all those green guides with steel or plastic rollers on a ST1200 ie making a completely new manual guide system, where it would be impossible for there to be any contact on the image area on the film. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 23, 2016, 08:58 PM:

Isn't the twin scratch usually a roller on the inlet guide locking up?

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 24, 2016, 02:20 AM:

I think your right there Steve, i have recently had my machine serviced by the big chief of Elmo Bill Parsons, on mine,(although the front guides are not a problem n these) one of things Bill said he did was to get the little plastic rollers all turning again, this is of course a main thing on any machine i would guess, also had a new sound pressure pad put in that i bought brand new as these are also a possible culprit.
Going back to start of the thread,
Peter, have you got anywhere with this?

Posted by David Roberts (Member # 197) on September 24, 2016, 04:50 AM:

the scratches I refer to were not lines but large green dots,one above the other on left of picture.
I think it may have been to do with the lower loop "wacking"itself against one of the guides,and of course being after the gate,i didn't discover the problem until about 20 of my films damaged.
I still view those film but the scratches drive you crazy,you cant help looking at them!
such a shame because in every other respect the st1200 is a great machine.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 24, 2016, 07:37 AM:

Perhaps Elmo should adopted the slot loading system from there 16mm projector, that does seem to have a lot of rubber rollers in the film path, looks simple enough to load too. The Fumeo has metal rollers with "O " rings machined into the contact area, so minimal contact with the film, the plastic roller could be machined with a groove and fitted with a suitable "O" ring, with possibly the same effect, plus you would get drive from the film transport, it might counter the plastic rollers from not turning.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 25, 2016, 05:31 AM:

The points David made earlier in his last two posts here, mirror my own experiences entirely with these projectors over many different decades.

David has tried his luck seven times, I tried mine only five before drawing up the very same conclusion as David.

I've experienced twin dots in picture exactly as David describes, I've experienced green lines. I've experienced green lines being placed permanently until the projector is halted, I've experienced intermittent lines being placed on the picture until halted.
I never once felt comfortable sitting more than two feet away from the projector knob. You just never knew the minute.

Sometimes I was lucky, they occurred before the gate, other times, I wasn't so fortunate and noticed nothing until I ran the film again on another occasion.

All in all, I struggled regularly to keep a constant lower and upper loop at times, regularly the lower loop would be lost for no apparent reason but was especially prone after a splice.

These experiences were exactly the same when the machines were in their relative infancy as when they were 30 years plus old.

David otherwise liked the overall design of the ST1200.
Aside from the overall build quality, I had many other moans regarding these. Not least because of the level of wow and speed variation.

In the end, I simply gave up with them.
It's a decision I've never regretted once since.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 25, 2016, 08:23 AM:

With all due respects we are not discussing David's experiences with his Elmo's, the thread was started by Peter and his seeking advice about the machine he has, but it always turns into an underline attack by you to discredit completely the Elmo, and its not even the machine he owns either, stick to the bloody question Andrew, and not some kind of guilt trip for buying one. The horror stories are out there, we get it, lets move on "FFS".

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 25, 2016, 08:33 AM:

I do indeed still have one of these for the time being.
David spoke of his experiences, I was simply doing likewise Paul, cementing only my own experiences on each of his own points raised.

My views on these has been well versed on any forum I frequent.

To that end, there is nothing more I could add all in all and so this certainly isn't intended as an Elmo bashing exercise.
As said earlier, each to their own.

Digression often occurs on any forum topic, just as in the same way real life discussion does also Paul.

Just about any subject matter ever raised here or on any forum could be accused of a certain degree of digression or hijacking (whatever that means regarding forum conversation?)

The same findings from owners reoccur on all models even if the design differs somewhat from one model to another.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on September 25, 2016, 11:23 AM:

Its a case of selling the car because the ash try is full, dress it up how you like, nobody does it better, its just pompous clap trap, and I won't digress from the initial question.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 25, 2016, 11:42 AM:

Paul, your post earlier did exactly the same thing as my own, but if that's how you perceive things, so be it.
As said...each to their own.

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