8mm Forum: Replacing Beaulieu 708 EL Arm Friction Washer...Again!

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Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 15, 2016, 07:29 AM:

So today I'm replacing the friction washer on the feed arm of my 708 EL yet again...

I replaced the original felt washer on the take-up arm many years ago now with a cheap leather washer form a local DIY store and it has been perfect ever since.

A couple of years ago, the felt feed arm washer started to fall apart and I replaced it with another leather washer from the same DIY place, although this time it was black in colour as opposed to cream (??!)

Anyway, it lasted a few months then became sticky, as if the surface had worn down and was causing the arm spindle to stick, so I replaced it again...lasted a few months again and same thing...

So now, I'm trying a new washer.

Only problem is it's polypropylene, so making it stick to the metal support is...tricky...

I'm trying super glue with primer for polypropylene...

Should be a good, long lasting solution...IF the glue sticks it!

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 15, 2016, 07:58 AM:

Nice fix Rob!

Let us know how you get along Pal. [Wink]

It may prove a little tricky Rob as Polyurethane or polypropylene is notably a bugger to get it to stick to anything let alone metal.

Good luck with it though mate and I know of a few substances you could try if you're struggling to get it to bond adequately.

What I would suggest if I may, is to give the surface to be stuck to the metal backplate a "key" first by using some Emery cloth or a file first to rough it up a little.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 15, 2016, 08:14 AM:

Yep, Andrew, it's amazing that even in this day and age that we still can't get two different human-made surfaces to stick together reliably!! [Razz]

I did give the back of the washer a gentle rubbing with mild sand paper before cleaning down everything and making the bond.

It's setting now and I'm giving it until Monday as the first glue I used was an extra strong flexible bonding for plastics of all types, for use under extreme heat / cold / flexible duress...after 24 hours the washer just fell off...mentioning no brand names! [Roll Eyes]

Will let you know how I get on...Halloween shows are immanent!!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 15, 2016, 08:21 AM:

Great stuff Rob and that stuff UPVC window fitters use to stick stuff in their line of work, is very very good indeed if all else fails Rob.

Now you just need to find a double glazing fitter down at your local! [Smile]

Everyone knows one of these guys! Ha ha

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 15, 2016, 08:28 AM:

Thanks, Andrew, I'll report back next week when hopefully it will have stuck and I've had the chance to test it...otherwise I'll take your advice and find a UPVC glazier for a quote! Lol!

Would still be cheaper than a washer from Wittners!

[Smile]

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 15, 2016, 09:07 AM:

I'm not sure if this would help Rob but I have a large piece of 2mm thick nitrile rubber based cork sheet I use for Elmo friction pads and I would be happy to post you and Andrew some to try on the Beaulieus.

Kevin

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on October 15, 2016, 09:12 AM:

Perhaps the latter leather was shammy, not as high quality. A visit to your local shoe repairer may have the solution ( if you pardon the pun) to glueing leather to other items. You could get horse glue many years ago, that would stick most things to anything, it stank to high heaven though when you melted it, but it was incredible stuff. I would look for an old leather belt for a source material, the local charity shop can help you maybe ?.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 15, 2016, 09:19 AM:

Thanks Kevin, yes please. I'd like a small sample piece of your cork substance to be able to try come the time.

I can PayPal you whatever it costs thanks Kevin to send and for the material itself.

I have to say, aside from having to change out the front (obviously doh! ) reel spindle when I first got the projector, I haven't had any mither with any of the reel arm components since.
I hope Rob secures a long term fix on his with this as this really ought not to be an issue on these from what I gather.

[ October 15, 2016, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on October 15, 2016, 09:40 AM:

Hello Beaulieu's Fans,

As I remember, the big "soft" washer (on the still bracket) was made with felt material on my projectors.

Normaly , I have deleted these parts for the one I ugraded the rear spindle.
And that works as it is without any problem (no extra axial play).

I will check that again

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 15, 2016, 09:46 AM:

I will send you some Andrew no problem post wise it should just need a standard letter stamp.

Just a thought - I never had these problems with Beaulieus when I used them but I used to put a smear of LM grease onto the cork pads when fitted to give them a small amount of friction reducing slip - just a smear mind - dab on then wipe off with a cloth. It might not mention it in the service manuals but it works well on Elmos and Eikis so why not Beaulieus?

Also using manual rewinds instead of the projector to rewind films will reduce wear to everything mechanical: gears, belts, motors and friction pads etc.

Kevin

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 16, 2016, 03:27 AM:

Thanks for the offer, Kevin, very generous. I'll let you know how I get on sticking the new washer on...I'm going to let it cure today and try it tomorrow...if it drops off I'll be in touch!! (also, yes, rewind duties are now on the work bench, so it hasn't even had that much stress).

Yes, the original washers were felt on my machine, but disintegrated and clogged up the spindle; mind you that took about 20 years to happen from new (I bought it second hand in about 2000)

As I said, the cheap replacement leather washer on the rear has lasted 16 years, so the new leather washers I bought obviously aren't up to it or are, as suggested by Paul, the wrong material for the job.

Typical Beaulieu, that something so simply can put the projector out of action!

[Roll Eyes]

Here's hoping the plastic one sticks as it should last forever if it does!!! [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 16, 2016, 03:32 AM:

Rob, have you tried actually replacing it with felt so far?

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 16, 2016, 04:49 AM:

No, Andrew - I believe Beaulieu modified to leather washers as well, so it "felt" like a retrograde step. Lol...tumble weed [Smile]

Fingers crossed for testing tomorrow...

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 17, 2016, 02:53 AM:

Success! It's stuck.

All back together and working well...hopefully never have to change it again.

Time to run some films... [Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 17, 2016, 04:02 AM:

Well done Rob! [Smile]

Take note of that Superglue. It must surely be one of the better ones on the market as many I've tried stick well to begin with but then in no time at all, come apart again!

We used to buy in loctite Super bonder (495) with a blue label to specifically glue o-rings together and that stuff never failed us once, so hopefully that will be the end of this issue.

Henkel products are all professional products used extensively in manufacturing throughout industry, so you stand a very good chance of a lasting repair this time with this i'd say Rob.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 17, 2016, 01:17 PM:

Rob

It might be time to buy an Elmo [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 17, 2016, 01:20 PM:

Are you sure? Lol!!

No Prints were harmed in the making of this post! [Big Grin]

Take a look at the other forum Graham as to how well your expertise advice would fair Rob here!!

[ October 19, 2016, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 18, 2016, 12:19 PM:

Graham, I have my trusty ST1200HD which honestly has demanded no less attention over the years!! [Big Grin]

Also have owned three GS1200's and still have my Chinon which was my Christmas present aged 10, two Eumigs and two 16mm Eikis...and not enough room!!

Well...I went to start my show yesterday with the Beaulieu back in position, feeling all pleased with myself...and...the take-up suddenly wasn't turning...groan...

I went though a full repair of the take-up mechanism a couple of years ago so couldn't believe it...anyway it started to turn slowly and then was fine, but I'll have to open it back up and have a look...nothing worse than the fear of the take-up failing and your precious print unspooling all over the carpet!

That said, reel one of "The Reptile" looked great... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on October 18, 2016, 12:57 PM:

This is an interesting article Rob, if a little frustrating for you. I have one of these machines so happy to help you in any way because it will benefit all of us. I guess bill would be the short cut here, but I applaud your tenacity. I have not looked at mine to see what's going on here, perhaps I will now. I know you can get clutch friction lining, because companies still do this service, but that would be dangerous, although I don't think the lining is asbestos now, a need to find something similar is important to put this to bed for good. Was the original drive disc actually felt ?. How good would it be to adjust it externally like that of a drill/driver with a torque setting, which is a ratchet type mechanism, could we use one of those, maybe ?.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 18, 2016, 01:22 PM:

You're certainly going through it Rob with your reel holders here. Both of them it'd seem.

I hope the front one stays a reliable fix now and if it were myself, while there's still a chance, for what it's worth, I'd just enquire at Wittners to see if they have a new clutch assembly for you now.

If you're having to revisit these things over again, something must be not quite right somewhere within the assembly.

They really are not renowned for playing up generally Rob, this part of the machine.

The felt btw Paul was used only as to provide a little resistance to the rear surface of the gear wheel on the backside of the spindle hub via the spring as seen above in Robs photograph.
It prevents the film from randomly unwinding during projection.

It isn't part of the actual clutch assembly for the spindles.
The felt is used at the top end of the reel holder assembly, the clutch mechanism is at the bottom end. They are joined together by a toothed drive belt.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 19, 2016, 05:19 AM:

Thanks for the support guys - makes me feel a bit better!

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009823

Here was my fix for the take-up; I really never expected to have any more trouble with it....

Will open it up this weekend for a look...

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on October 19, 2016, 06:09 AM:

Yes I remember Rob.

I was little surprised myself to hear you were still receiving trouble from the clutch given the time, effort and excellent work you put into it. [Confused]

As said, this really ought to be one part on these machines that causes very little, if any, problems.

There certainly hasn't been many reported historically from all i have read within owners reports and conversation with these guys.

It remains a mystery Rob for the time being but I hope you get to root cause soon on this one and get back to enjoying your lovely machine in all of it's glory again, hassle free! [Wink]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 14, 2016, 01:23 PM:

Just thought I'd bring this topic back in case anyone else suffers from these problems with their Beaulieu.

Success! The rear washer has now also been replaced with a polypropylene version, the take-up tension has also been adjusted and now take-up is again steady and consistent.

A little time, care, a Beaulieu service manual and a cheap yet appropriate washer saves the day once again! [Smile]

I feel now like a reluctant expert on the Beaulieu arm mechanisms!!! Lol!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 15, 2016, 03:14 PM:

I am pleased to hear you are now up and running again Rob! 😊😊

I hope it lasts a long long time for you now Rob regarding this troublesome point for you.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 17, 2016, 05:00 AM:

Here is my advice.
Pack in film and go all digital.
Less hassles in the long run.

Only joking of course.
I hope all goes well. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 17, 2016, 05:10 AM:

Less hassles, less fun also David!

At least with one of these, one of the major headaches of being a film collector is completely eliminated! [Wink]

After reading your other post this morning David, you take it easy pal.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 17, 2016, 08:06 AM:

Cheers Andrew.

No more lugging about heavy Fumeo or Elmo GS 1200s projectors for me these days.
Definitely no more 16mm / 35mm either.

Film collecting can be bad for your health at times ! [Wink]

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on November 18, 2016, 03:08 PM:

David, my home cinema set up is using JCV D-ILA projection, with two Blu-ray sources, a Toshiba XDE upscaling DVD spinner and full digital surround sound (and that's just the basics...)

Yet, I still love and cherish my super 8 films and projectors.

In fact, sometimes they are a reality check...just to see again and again how good these films looked and sounded 20 - 30 years ago before digital...

I love that this and other like-minded forums exist, because otherswise, quite frankly, I reckon this hobby would have become so insular by now.

I'm so happy that despite the obvious progress in movie capture and presentation a like-minded bunch of enthusiasts and knowledgeable people around the globe still care about film and are able to so easily communicate.

This, together with the other valued forums, are what keep a hobby like ours alive.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with this thread, and I very much look forward to all of your valuable help in the future.

[Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 18, 2016, 05:05 PM:

Great words spoken there Rob and I too love the forums for knowledge sharing and for enthusiasm sharing.

I am truly indebted to all of them for the wonderful people I've come into contact with as a result of these.

Long may they live and the people who use them! [Smile]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 20, 2016, 04:20 AM:

Rob that's the great thing about today.
We can still watch movies from both the analogue and digital
sources. Both have their Pros & Cons though.
[Wink]

I partly agree about the hobby in danger of becoming "insular"
if it were not for the forums.
However I still think it would be around regardless of the
internet. It was there in pre home computer days and I know many
others who are getting along without it.
There are a lot of collectors out there who don't have a computer or are forum members. They use good old fashioned phone calls and
letter writing , magazine adverts in order to contact others.

Film Forums can have a "negative effect " at times and attract
some real parasitic assholes who think they "know it all " as I found out
this year. It kind of took away the "Magic" of Reel Film Collecting for me.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 20, 2016, 05:35 AM:

I can't imagine who you are referring to there David! [Big Grin]

I personally think the forums are pivotal for info sharing to enable there to be yet even another few decades of enjoyment still, from our machines.

As said recently, the guys who we associate in the hobby as being "the professionals" in the repair game, are now down scaling their operations as time moves along.

This era represents the very first era where in the not too distant future, we are literally on our own!

If you read Rob's sentiments earlier surrounding his own perspective on the importance of the forums, they mirror my own.

We would be lost without them where those active still in the hobby, venture next. [Smile]

It's going to take a joint effort of everyone's pooled knowledge.
You have vast amounts of experience in this hobby David, so I hope you join us all in sharing all that you have learned over the years regarding your machines well being and film preservation tips etc.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 20, 2016, 09:37 AM:

Hahahahahahaha !!!! Andrew cheers for that. [Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 20, 2016, 10:44 AM:

I am pleased I somehow managed to amuse you David! [Wink]

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on November 20, 2016, 02:02 PM:

Very much a sweeping statement regarding scaling back. Speaking to quite a few such professionals of late I do not see evidence of this. They are enjoying a steady flow of business!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 20, 2016, 02:09 PM:

Yes Simon, I have spoken with one such person who, yes is still very very busy, but not necessarily to do each and every job and it is also true to say another has already tailored their activities to omit certain jobs.

None of these guys will be able to serve us all indefinitely.
Then, it will be down to the next generation of vintage mechanical and electronics repair experts, if there are any, or ourselves of course.

[ November 20, 2016, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on November 21, 2016, 09:29 AM:

... and if there are not any repair men and we cant do it ourselves there it will all end.

R.I.P ... hahahahahahaha !!! [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on November 21, 2016, 10:43 AM:

That'll never happen David,.. not in my lifetime anyhow! [Wink]

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