8mm Forum: Collecting Cut-downs. (Digests)

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Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 17, 2016, 09:51 AM:

Do you think that collecting severely edited Cut-downs/Digests
of feature films is now getting a bit pointless these days ?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on December 17, 2016, 10:04 AM:

Aside from the very early years of collecting when all had superb colour and most could be purchased brand new, I've never been much of a fan of the 400ft or 200ft digests to be honest David.

600ft is about the minimum I can enjoy of a feature I like.

I just think 17 or 18 minutes is all but too condensed for any feature film with the only exceptions being of ones with a very simplistic and overly suspended plot perhaps,such as Steven Spielberg's "Duel" etc.

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on December 17, 2016, 10:41 AM:

Being as my whole life (42 years) was around 16mm (and my dad as well, from when HE was 13 back in 1959), I never even knew of 'digests' in Super 8 until coming onto these forums. First thing I thought was, "why"? I just never understood it, personally.

Maybe 35 or so years ago when 16mm was illegal to own (and more expensive); cable didn't exist in all areas; and there was no real 'video rental', the digests made more sense. But now? I cannot even grasp how a modern audience TODAY would get the concept.

(No offense to those that like it, mind you!)

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on December 17, 2016, 05:00 PM:

For those who still collect on celluloid, I think it is still relevant. It is a fun way to own parts of favorite movies. As discussed in another thread, sometimes the cut-down is better than the full-length feature.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 17, 2016, 05:12 PM:

They are kind of an art form unto themselves. They have some very enthusiastic fans, a lot of 'em who have been collecting them ever since they were available new.

I never got the whole thing until I hung out with a bunch of digest collectors: they are kind of like the guys that swirl the wine around in their mouths and look for the hints of oak and tannin, not the rest of us that judge it by the buzz we get!

-so I guess it's fair to say it's an acquired taste!

I have some myself. Usually I enjoy them on my own. It saves me from having to explain "where the rest of the movie" went.

I still think a good one could be fit into a general audience show if you present it right.

Posted by Evan Samaras (Member # 5070) on December 17, 2016, 05:30 PM:

I think Steve makes a few good points

When I first started collecting I didn't understand the point of a digest. I was only interested in the features. However, as I started watching them, and as I viewed them via other collectors' collections, I really began to enjoy them. That along with the fact that they are a lot more affordable than their features caused me to gravitate towards the digests.

I really enjoy the experience of being able to watch multiple films in one sitting, versus having to spend 1.5-2 hours watching a full movie. How many full features am I really going to see in one night? I also agree that it is an art form. Cutting away at sections of film can really change the whole pace and feeling or view of the movie itself.

I have a few friends who have a passion for movies. I'm guilty of not putting a proper showing for them. They constantly ask about my collection. Whenever I acquire a new title, the first thing I am asked is: "Is it the full movie?" I am long overdue for sitting them down for a night of digests. Maybe they will see things differently afterward.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 17, 2016, 06:43 PM:

The whole point of digests are missed by people who did not grow up before 1970. When I grew up there was no TV, and so the whole concept of showing actual motion pictures in the home was amazing. At that time, in the 1950's,Pathescope operated 9.5mm libraries in most of the cities and large towns in the UK. You could rent a 300ft reel for the weekend for about a shilling. And you could also buy titles from 30ft to 10 reel full length sound features, depending on your level of disposable income. Believe me you had to be wealthy to own the full length 9,5 sound features.
Then in the late 50's the first 8mm sound shorts started cropping up, and in the late 60's super 8 sound was making its mark. People started buying S8 prints of short subjects, cartoons newsreel's and the like, and then in a very bold move, Columbia Pictures started releasing 400ft reels of their most popular feature films. They were an instant hit. Everybody who purchased them realized they were getting just a few strung together scenes from the film but it didn't matter, (remember home video did not exist at this time), because the idea of actually owning and being able to show clips from these great films in the home was very appealing to a whole lot of people. Soon MGM, Universal, AIP, Warner's, and others were selling these 400ft digests.
Today, with full length feature films costing as little as $5.00 on DVD, the super 8 digest seems like a quaint relic from the past. But I find that some of them work extremely well as part of a film show, for the same reason, audiences love to see iconic movie clips. The MGM digests of their iconic musical films are just wonderful, as they include all the famous song and dance numbers in their entirety. And they are all great for a casual film evening where you just do not want a whole 2 hour feature film.
So, long live digests! [Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on December 17, 2016, 07:06 PM:

You make some highly valid and valued points there Paul it has to be said.

Although as I say, nowadays I am not such a huge fan of the digest as a concept anymore, I can see that for musicals in particular, there would still be a lot of appeal for all these sections of a movie to be condensed together.

I think it is as much to do with colour fade now as the concept itself, as to why I don't search out more of these nowadays.

It is such a pity that the digest by concept, wasn't something that lasted as long as the actual Super 8mm package movie industry did.

Then undoubtedly, more low fade 400 footers would still be around with superb colour left in them.

Derann for example wholeheartedly admitted telling their customer base in FFTC, that the days of the digest were now well and truly over,long before they eventually closed their doors for good.
Though they would of course, still go on to release individual short but complete extracts from films as we now know.

The Matrix and Gladiator being two such examples.

Though these extracts look great on film up our small screens, they still leave you wanting more and wishing you could have more of the movie, I find.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 18, 2016, 04:03 AM:

We simply collect films we like, David thats a good question as we would never simply only be collectors of digests. As i said before elsewhere i am sure everyone would love a full feature of every film we all own in a digest format but availability obviously was never their. Andrew makes the point of 600ft being the minimum which i agree with. I recent years we have snapped up a few 400 footer, (Dirty Mary Crazy Larry, The Silencers and The Big mouth), as these i consider to be fun programm starters and nothing more [Wink]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on December 18, 2016, 04:55 AM:

I think cutdowns have their place,whether it be a 200ft up to 1200ft releases, if you can make sense of the plot/story then they are worth a look, also I realise you can only do so much on the smaller releases but I guess originally that it was about providing a film for everyone's budget, lots of collectors started with 50 foot silent black and white and was so pleased with them at the time that the excitement must have been immense showing that small bit of footage, what would a colour/sound 400ft bring in the amazement stakes at the time, my first film was Fun in Acapulco 400 ft and the sheer joy of showing it for the first time in all it's glory was to me a
great day however short it was. I think this stands to whatever length of film you choose to watch, as long as you enjoy it, let's be honest most non film collectors just can't get there heads round not watching a dvd etc but that's another story, Mark

Posted by David Skillern (Member # 607) on December 18, 2016, 05:01 AM:

I collect mainly features on 8mm and just started collecting 16mm features - but saying that while i was in Blackpool - i picked up a couple of super 8 digests - Bandolero - with Dean Martin, James Stewart and Raquel Welch - a little confusing but if you read the back story on imdb - its easy to follow - however i did pick up 3 Universal 8 digests - Charley Varrick which is a cracking cutdown, The Don is Dead - the Anthony Quinn mafia thriller which also stands up well and Alfred Hitchcock's Family Plot. I did see a copy of Day of the Jackel - but didn't pick it up - wish i had now.

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on December 18, 2016, 05:03 AM:

Collecting digests is a matter of choice. Most people when they started with Super 8 progressed with digests but over time graduated to full features. The only digests I kept had to pass the criteria of good print and sound , well edited and those that I couldn't get in a larger format. I had the benefit of actually buying a lot of them new when the first video wave happened and prices tumbled. From personal taste the only ones worth keeping were Universal 8 and Ken/Fox. Think of Universal horror, Hitchcock releases Duel , Charlie Varrick and This Island Earth. On the Fox side Desert Fox, My Darling Clementine, Jesse James and The French Connection I and II.

The Columbia digests apart from a few the older black and white digests could be summed up as junk poor cut downs lousy prints soft or going pink plus awful commentary. The only Columbia digests I kept were Jolson Story surprisingly quite a good print and the Jason extracts once I got the features they were quickly sold on no comparison to features.

Derann 400s I can't really think of one good one. They were choppy in format and poor quality compared to their later features.

Walton was much the same the best being Dr Who which was really 2x200 you could splice together the others were good prints of Laurel and Hardy which irritatingly were slightly edited.

Disney never really participated apart from their 400 best bit collectives.

Mountain 400s which covered RKO and others were best avoided occasionally you could get extracts that could Give you extra footage for 4x400 abridged versions She wore a yellow ribbon springs to mind.

MGM digests were usually a good edit but were mixed in terms of quality Easter Parade and North West Passage being very good but most were either soft prints and their colour was turning very early on.

Marketing which covered Paramount titles. Their prints tended to be good initially but the editing was usually lousy. Ironically, Raiders of the Lost Ark their last release being their best.

United Artists which were released by Derann were usually 2x400 but their 400 digest of Key Largo was well edited and very repeatable in that format. Actually say a lot about the film.

In summary, 400 digests can occasionally be rewarding but their shortcomings outweigh the joy. The frustration of now trying to locate and buy titles that have been scratched, turned pink or are soft prints.must be mind numbing. Ironically their value is higher than their worth they are more prized as film memorabilia now when they have their original artwork and are seen curios from a by gone era.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on December 18, 2016, 05:08 AM:

It's another great valid point that Mark has this time made, among all of this one here.

I remember the sheer thrill of moving up the ranks in the early years from 50 ft b/ w silent prints, to then colour ones.

Then 200ft b/ w and colour silents as our interest grows and then finally onto 200ft and 400ft colour sound films as progression takes place.

It was like hitting the big time as it felt each step of the way.

Every small step having a feeling of greater professionalism of presentation each and every small step of the way!

6v bulb then 50w lamps, then 100w dichroic lamps etc etc!!

Back then,as a relative youngster, I could only dream of one day owning any kind of lengthy runs of film, let alone Super 8mm colour features of top titles in blistering stereo sound!

I think part of the actual appeal of film collecting is that we all do at some point, see the hobby as a progressive one and because at a click of the fingers,we cannot just afford or find every title we desire as we can with Blu Ray or DVD, then this is in part at least, what retains our interest.

It's exactly the same feeling with the machines themselves that we buy to watch our films upon.

The thrill of finding better ones as we progress is unsurpassed by any other, I find.

In this respect, this is where the digital and cine projection hobbies overlap I feel.
When I think back to the images I gained covered in pixel dust from the Sharp XV-Z1E after only a few hundred hours of use, and equally with a pixel grid like looking at projection screen through a tennis racket, I cannot believe what progression has equally brought to this aspect of movie viewing!

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 18, 2016, 05:11 AM:

When I first started my collecting on 8mm a 400 footer was
a luxury buy for me. Features were way out of my reach due
to limited pocket money.
So I started with a couple of 50 footers then reached the dizzy
heights of being able to purchase some 200 footers.
Standard ( Regular ) 8mm Silent / Mute of course.

Like Paul states it was the only way to see and own films in
the home in the pre TV /Video Tape / Laserdisc / DVD / Blu-Ray
eras. The problem for early video eras was that you were still
limited to watching films on a much smaller screen on the TV.
Then along came better cheaper Video Projectors which meant you
could now see your favourite films on a big screen in a darkened
room again.

However for me cut-downs still have a place if only for nostalgic
reasons. They are where it was all at for me.

Happy simpler days. [Smile]

Posted by Paul Suchy (Member # 80) on December 18, 2016, 09:32 AM:

I own maybe 50 Super 8 digests and I can only think of a few of those that I would ever consider wanting as full length features if they were available. I have as much fun running my digests as I did back in the 1970's (yet I won't run a digest for anyone who hasn't seen the full feature). The features I have on 16mm and Super 8 don't get run as often as the digests. I agree with those who occasionally enjoy the variety in screening a bunch of digests in 2 hours as opposed to a single feature. My favorite digests are the cheesy disaster movies from the 70's and regarding most of them, 18 minutes is more than enough.

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on December 18, 2016, 09:41 AM:

I must say, I have found this topic a riveting read.Some excellent contributions and comments.

Andrew W. - your comments on your thread of 5.08am (!) absolutely hit the nail on the head for me. I could have been reading my own contribution as that is exactly the evolution road I came down. Thank goodness us 8mm school kids with pocket money progressed to being wage earners with our collections benefiting from that process!

Mike's essay on the quality of different companies digests provides a very valuable guide to digest collecting.Thanks for that.

In my opinion, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that these digests,that had their hayday in the 1970's, provided us with the thrill of seeing the best bits of up to date films in glorious colour(!) on a screen that could be several feet wide if required, in an age when the biggest TV was a poultry 26" wide and may have still been in black and white as people slowly converted to colour......and we have not even reached the start of the massed video era.....!

.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on December 18, 2016, 11:10 AM:

If you look at the huge number of 2,3,5 minute movie scenes uploaded on YouTube, each with thousands of viewings, it is clear that a lot of people like to view their favourite scenes from full length movies. This is essentially what the super 8 digest provides, but in a longer version that also gives you a sense of the whole film. As such digests are great souvenir's of our favourite films, to be shown when we want to just recapture some of the joy for 18 minutes.
David alluded to the advantage that film had over early video in terms of screen size. Certainly that was true until very recently, but I think the playing field is now level, or perhaps even reversed, on that score with today's superb home digital projectors and Blu-ray discs.
All the digests that I purchased back in the 70's and 80's still sit on display on my film shelves. Most are now faded, but the sound is as good as the day I purchased them (40 years ago I would have bet that the stripe would be the factor limiting the life of the film, not the color!). Once in a while I will pull one off the shelf and thread it up, and they still provide enjoyment. The tragedy of course is the color fade, when you remember how great these films looked when new.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 18, 2016, 11:39 AM:

You may all remember how the huge 1977 Star Wars Digest was released here on super 8 before the cinema's got it. We bought the first batch and i cannot remember the amount of gangs i bought down after school to watch it. It was a great time. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on December 18, 2016, 12:58 PM:

It's nice to hear of people who have similar memories of growing up among the popular Super 8 format of the day Melvin.

It was still a specialist sport even back then in what some people term as Super 8mm's heyday, even though to me that will always be the late 80's and early 90's.

I can remember distinctly covering much ground with my loving parents in those days, searching high and low for Super 8mm package movies in Manchester and surrounding areas before finally stumbling upon Jubilee film Library on Old St, Ashton-Under- Lyne.

It was like an Oasis in a desert for me back then, with many fond memories and an atmosphere that sticks with you forever at such impressionable age. Pure magic!!

[ December 18, 2016, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 18, 2016, 03:02 PM:

I am so glad that so many of you have taken time to answer
my question. Very informative and enlightening.

This is the raison d'etre of forums such as these. I
look forward to reading more contributions.

We can all share our common and unique film collecting
interests and experiences on a worldwide stage.
[Smile]

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on December 18, 2016, 03:59 PM:

Must admit I sometimes prefer the cutdown to the feature, but I have loads of features too on both super 8 and 16mm. Although quite a few of the super 8 are I suppose a kind of cutdown the 8 reelers I mean.

Those 200ft that mainly just took one maybe two scenes are in some ways better than tying to tell the plot.

And of course some films are too long as 50ft versions.

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on December 18, 2016, 05:37 PM:

Andrew - You mention your "oasis in the desert."

Well, I discovered my "oasis in the city" when, on a trip to London in the 70's, I visited the shop of a company I had bought 400'ers from only via mail order. Mailmaster Film Productions. You may recall them? Literally, 400' films were spread right across every bit of wall space just like wallpaper. Magic!

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on December 18, 2016, 06:32 PM:

Melvin bought my first projector from Mailmaster a Royal [Eek!]

. They did send you a great film catalogue and listings. Found my own local dealer in 1980 Wards of Lisburn which was a regular electrical shop similar to Derann with a room at the back filled with super 8 more than I had ever seen upto that point. You could bring your titles and buy, sell and/or trade saved a lot of journeys to the post office.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 20, 2016, 01:32 PM:

I visited Mailmaster films when they morphed into Portland Films.
A great shop in London.
Wall to wall films right up to the ceiling and in the window too. [Smile]

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on December 20, 2016, 02:45 PM:

Mike - A friend of mine was introduced to the delights of super 8 via a Royal and an Imac. I seem to remember they were glorified toys with a small 10w torch bulb (or was it a car side light bulb) projecting dark shadows on the wall. He did progress to a proper projector via Chinon a year or two later.
That thrill of walking into a back room stacked full of super 8 from floor to ceiling can still be experienced if you visit Classic Home Cinema in Cleethorpes near Grimsby. I made my first visit there during the summer.What a thrill !

David - That Mailmaster shop...... 69 Long Lane ??

.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on December 21, 2016, 07:11 AM:

Think of digests as, a long-term trailer or teaser, if you will - For those who cannot afford the entire film at present, they suffice - What are Castle, Columbia or Ken Films for that matter but cut-down digest editions also, and with the accompanying artwork boxes, they have been mainstay collector items for years - I must give credit to those who tried and piece together a decent 400' digest of a film, overall, excellent work for the collector - Those U-8 horror ones are still in demand - Shorty

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on December 21, 2016, 10:15 AM:

Of course some (i assume where the film was too complex to edit down to 400ft coherently) were advertised just as "Selected scenes".

That would satisfy those who just wanted favourite portions of the film.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 21, 2016, 11:26 AM:

There are even those cases where a digest is a marked improvement over the original film. you get the best parts (as a general rule) without having to sit thru all the rest.

Posted by David Hardy (Member # 4628) on December 21, 2016, 03:37 PM:

I agree with you there Joe regarding the Castle / Columbia /
Ken / box artworks.

For me its a big part of the attraction of collecting digests.

In fact I have turned down buying a print if it is not in its
original box . [Smile]

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on December 21, 2016, 04:00 PM:

Osi

Hellfighters John Wayne as a 200 ft digest is a prime example of a cutdown being infinitely better than the feature. I think the editors realised they would be hard pushed to get anymore decent footage into a 400fter. 😂 Yet, I think it was Barry or Derek who said Universal planned it as a feature release. Please spare us. To obviously go with the other gems The Conqueor ☠☠☠ and Jet Pilot ✈️✈️✈️

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 22, 2016, 12:39 PM:

OK, this will blow you're mind, but I THINK that there was actually a very short run of feature prints of Hellfighters on super 8, no kidding!

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 23, 2016, 08:45 AM:

Back when I was a young lad in the early 70's, I would've killed to be able to afford to buy all of the digests I read about in MM, etc. I did own a handful and still have them.
As I grew older and became more interested in film history and film as an artform, video was becoming available and I was readily able to watch full features at home. From that point on I never saw the point of the digest...not when the full feature was available in some format.

That said, I do see the nostalgia value in owning and projecting digests. As someone else alluded to above, the collection of these has become almost a sub-genre of film collecting in itself. This forum is testimony to that. It is peculiar to Super 8, of course. There aren't many 16mm collectors, at least that I've met, who are interested in collecting what limited 16mm digests there are.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 23, 2016, 09:54 AM:

Osi, I think you are right there.

I can see everyone's perspective, but owning a half hour version of Star Wars and The Empire Strikes back that you could show your mates on a "big" screen back in 1980 was just amazing!

Also, as said, I think some films really do work well as digests.

Raise the Titanic, The Fog, Genevieve and even the 2 x 600ft version of Gremlins all work as really nice short versions of the full feature and despite Blu-ray, etc. I still very much enjoy screening these today. [Wink]

Posted by Douglas Warren (Member # 1047) on December 27, 2016, 08:39 AM:

For me, it's a cost effective (and nostalgia fueled) way to be part of the film collecting community. That's why (and I agree with all the positive points made previously) about why I still collect (and enjoy) digests. One may ask why collect them at all, but you could use the same logic why anyone would spend hundreds (pounds or dollars) on a Super-8 feature when other quality formats are available for a tiny fraction of the cost. Once again, each to their own I suppose and every segment of the hobby will always have its fans.

Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on December 27, 2016, 10:39 AM:

My family and friends can't wrap their brains around the concept of watching 9-18 minutes of a movie so for them I normally run full-length features. For me , digests are a product of nostalgia. Yes, the color is often atrocious and the editing by Ken and Columbia is often questionable, but they bring me back to when I was 15 years old and still living at home without a care in the world save for getting good grades in school. Every dollar of my allowance and monies earned from part-time jobs was invested in film collecting and because of the high cost of features I primarily bought cut downs.

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