This is topic Beaulieu 708EL New Spool Spindles in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 21, 2017, 05:58 AM:
I have just received a pair of spool holders from Van Eck Video Services (Part Number PP-0012) for the Beaulieu 708 EL and I must say that I am very impressed with them.
At last, spools go on without a fight, or the worry that forcing them on may break off one or more of the "bendy" lugs.
They do not have ball bearings in them but there is a "brassy looking" inset. If this is kept regularly lubricated I don't suppose there will be any problems.
Many thanks to Linda and Edwin.
http://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0012.html
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 23, 2017, 05:40 AM:
I have just had my credit card statement from which I see that the two spindles cost me a total of £67.42 (GBP). This included postage to the UK and the credit card charge for Euro to GBP conversion.
When I see that Wittner charge 169 euros for one they are indeed a bargain.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 23, 2017, 05:56 AM:
They look good Maurice.
Do the reels go on more or less the same, just better as newer.
Best Mark.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 23, 2017, 06:54 AM:
Mark
The original spindles were designed by Beaulieu to be reasonably tight to ensure that their 2200ft spools did not "wobble" as they rotated.
Unfortunately, many spools from different manufacturers would not go on due to being too tight. Owners were not aware of this and tried hard to push them onto the spindles thus wearing, and eventually breaking off one, or more of the poorly made "springy" clips which hold the spools on.
In earlier days, Wittner had replacement spindles (as used on the later xenon models) which had a turn-over clip. These were great replacements, but unfortunately Wittner's stocks have long gone.
The later introduction of the stereo model incorporated ball-bearings in the spindles to ensure even running, but the "springy" clips still remained the same.
Whilst the new spindles from Van Eck have a metal bore, they do not have any ball-bearings. However, as I said, provided these are lubricated now and again there seems to be no problems on this front.
The new spindles from Van Eck are made from what seems to be a stronger material and the "springy" clips have been redesigned and as the overall diameter of the spindles is slighter less than the originals they appear to be a much better replacement.
I have both the mono and the stereo models which are OK at the moment but I have the new spindles "in reserve".
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 23, 2017, 07:01 AM:
Thanks Maurice, they sound good.
Great they keep adding to thier handy parts/stocks like this.
Best Mark.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 08, 2017, 05:29 AM:
To prolong your existing reel holders from Wittners Maurice, and also to gain better support with your larger reels fitted, I have found that by adding a few simple end caps to the ends of the reel holders, this offers by far greater support, to the springy clips that are only attached and supported at one end of the reel holders originally.
By fitting these, the nylon springy lugs are supported at both ends of the reel holders.
I don't fit these onto the reel holders though until a reel is fitted onto them as this may prematurely wear the retaining lugs on the nylon spring prongs.
This simply acts as an extra securing "locking" mechanism and forces the lugs to sit upright retaining the reels at all times.
It is almost impossible to remove a reel with these in place on a healthy reel holder.
The End Caps themselves are readily available online etc, only cost a few pence each and fit just right so they can easily be fitted and removed before and after screening.
The size that I have found fits best is 8mm End Caps.
There is no doubt by fitting these on occasions, the reel holders themselves should remain fully functional for a very long time and they should also stop them from ever flexing beyond the point they no longer serve to retain the reel fitted correctly.
The very same disciplines regarding reel types has to still be observed however and these won't allow reels that don't fit well on these machines to fair any better.
Stick with the usual line up of Posso, Elmo, Schneider, Gepe, Bonum etc to maintain the lugs on the spring clips without excessive wear to them.
[ May 08, 2017, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 08, 2017, 06:39 AM:
Thank you, Andrew.
Sounds a good idea.
Where do you get the caps? Are they for use with movie film or are they designed for some other use?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 08, 2017, 07:23 AM:
They are just multi purpose general plastic End Caps Maurice.
I think I bought some of each size from Ebay a while ago now but I have seen they can still be easily found and are used extensively in industry also.
They certainly help matters for locking the larger spools in place as the prongs begin to flex more and more as they age and have been used for many many years.
I use a much larger version of these also to protect my scope ring when the machine is put away in it's case.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 09, 2017, 10:18 AM:
Finally, another very often overlooked issue with these original and copied spindle hubs is that when they first arrive they have a moulded abutment face on them that is incorrect as a datum face.
Observe the following photographs..
The above photograph is a stock photograph of how these appear from Wittners when you first receive them.
The arrows point to to moulded abutment lugs that form the datum face for the spool to sit flat against at the rear.
The problem with these abutment lugs, is they allow all correct sized spools to sit too far forward onto the spindles and as a result the fitted correct type spools do not click into position over the spring splines and their lugs correctly.
The reels never travel far back enough to make it successfully over the back of the retaining lugs. As a result, even with brand new reel holders, you can find the reel is tempted to force it's way off from the reel holder.
Also you will find that the alignment of the film running along the initial floating roller is not central. The film wants always to ride over the outer edge of the floating roller.
The solution is to do what had already been carried out to my own machine when I got it.
See photograph below...
This was the front reel holder I removed from my own machine when I first got it.
The yellow short stubby arrow indicates to an area of wear on the reel holder through attempting to fit ill fitting spools of incorrect size, to the machine over a number of previous years.
The Red long thin arrow indicates the flat abutment face brought about by the previous owner "engineering" the holder correctly to allow the spools to sit right up to the rear face of the holder.
When I first received my new reel holder from Wittners, knowing this information above, I first filed off each of the Abutment Face Lugs to allow the spools fitted onto it, to sit always in the correct and centrally aligned position on the new reel holder.
This also enabled the reassuring "clunk" as the spool passes over the back of the retaining lugs to be heard on each occasion.
This is how my present front reel holder now appears.
The red arrows in the photographs above show now that the abutment face is almost as far back on the reel holders as is possible given the restrictions to file a perfectly flat face onto this shaped piece.
By the time this has been carried out, the distance between the red arrowed face and the very end of the lugs on top of the spring splines, is the correct depth of a standard reel such as an Elmo 1200ft Jewel reel or a Posso 2200ft spool for example.
Finally to close, here we see the significant difference between the original Beaulieu reel holders as supplied by Wittners and those supplied by E.V.E.
The uppermost photograph illustrates the original later Beaulieu designed reel holder incorporating two ball bearings per reel holder while the lower photograph illustrates the alternative brass bush fitted each, to act as a sleeve bearing for the ones currently supplied by Van Eck Video Services.
[ May 09, 2017, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on May 09, 2017, 01:40 PM:
That's great work and very interesting information, Andrew. Genuine thanks on this from a fellow Beaulieu owner.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 09, 2017, 02:00 PM:
Anytime Steven and anything I ever get to find out about, I am always more than happy to share with everyone on our forums.
Thanks anyhow Steven, nice gesture pal. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 25, 2017, 11:52 AM:
As an update to this thread, I have this afternoon been speaking with a small batch engineering shop local to myself.
They have agreed to manufacture the metal parts contained in the uprated Studio / HTI reel holders that still include the much improved two ball bearing system.
I am looking to have the first pair manufactured on Tuesday of next week.
They ain't going to be cheap, but as we know, neither are the Nylon alternatives from Wittners!
I will update on here by the end of next week and report my findings from this initial batch.
If it proves a success, which i have no reason to believe it won't based on our talks and my own submitted data with this one, then I will be in a position hopefully to offer more of these to any other user who has the later dual bearing style nylon existing spindle hubs already.
In the end, after talks and submitted proposals, it was jointly decided to keep the design as original as anything further was making the over all cost uneconomically viable for myself and no doubt other potential customers.
I would be most grateful if an existing user of these type of spindle hubs could provide me with two dimensions, this would help me guarantee uniformity over the originals and while this can be reasonably accurately calculated, precise measurements would be extremely useful for us with this one please.
I will illustrate the two critical dimensions in picture form this evening thanks.
Any help would be most gratefully received.
I would urge anyone with two ball broken nylon spindle holders to keep hold of them. They will be required in addition to the new parts to successfully recreate the old improved original HTI ones. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 26, 2017, 03:36 AM:
Here are the two photographs displaying the components and dimensions I am seeking hopefully if anyone could supply these dimensions please from their own machine?
1/ Above ;- The first dimension required, is the distance between the centre retaining pin to the datum flange face in mm,
as illustrated by the black lines and black arrows in the photograph above.
2/ Above, The second critical dimension I am seeking please, is the width of the spool retaining clip as indicated in the same photograph above by the Red Arrows . Once again, a dimension in mm please for the width of this strip steel please.
Below..
Here is another photograph requesting two further dimensions from the originals in mm, if possible please.
1/ (between the RED ARROWS is the distance from the end of the datum flange face to the end of the reel holder hub please?
2/ The second dimension I am seeking from this photograph below is the dimensions of the depth of the milled slot to allow the the retaining clip to sit into position on the bub. Again in mm please if possible?
Thank You in anticipation of any help and data received.
[ May 26, 2017, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 26, 2017, 09:21 AM:
I am hoping maybe Alan Rik or Alan Gougar perhaps could help me out a little with this one with any luck?
Fingers and all else, very much crossed.
It goes into production on Tuesday so I need all drawings and other bits and bobs submitted by then
Any help most gratefully accepted please?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 27, 2017, 04:08 AM:
Anyone???
Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on May 27, 2017, 04:24 AM:
Hi Andrew,
I just saw this. I would love to help but my Beaulieu is in Germany right now getting put back to factory spec!
Flavio here also has the HTI Beaulieu so a PM might help.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 27, 2017, 05:26 AM:
Hi Alan and thanks very much for the response buddy. I am sorry to hear you have had to send your machine off to Germany but no doubt it will be back with you like a brand new machine once you get it back!
Hopefully then, Flavio may fill me in on the missing dimensions I am seeking here.
As said the project will go ahead regardless, but it would have been really nice to place some firm and authentic sizes on these to guarantee their replica status to the originals.
As it stands, they will still be very much fit for purpose no doubt, but may differ ever so slightly from the ones seen above in one plane or another without the information I seek.
[ May 27, 2017, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 27, 2017, 10:28 AM:
Some specific details I have managed to secure from measuring the existing nylon holders as well as checking against an Elmo 1200ft Jewel reel...
The above detail determines the said " set depth" of the 6.5mm counterbored holed beyond the space occupied by the two back to back ball bearings mounted to this shaft.
[ May 27, 2017, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 27, 2017, 06:43 PM:
Crikey, it's like trying to get blood out of a stone! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 29, 2017, 04:04 AM:
I will put a last gasp shout out for help with this one here today.
By the end of today all drawings and plans will have to be complete and ready to offer them up to the manufacturer of these.
If anyone does have one of these machines and they feel they could offer me the details requested above from the May 25th threads onwards,..it would be most helpful thank you.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 29, 2017, 09:51 AM:
Andrew
I do so wish that I could help you with the requirements for the various dimensions.
I have two Beaulieus but unfortunately neither has these later spool spindles.
Would Wittner Cinetec be any help? As they bought up everything Beaulieu perhaps scaled drawings may have been included.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 29, 2017, 10:07 AM:
They are shut until July unfortunately Maurice, but hey thanks Maurice. I really appreciate the gesture thank you.
I am beavering away on this even as we speak Maurice and the project will begin tomorrow morning regardless of any input I receive or not.
For those who this information may be both useful and interesting to them, I have taken plenty more essential details of these components throughout the day and as ever, I will be sharing anything I have learned from doing this exercise with everyone here and elsewhere as applicable.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 29, 2017, 12:50 PM:
Phase One - Pre Work..
Modification of the existing dual ball bearing nylon reel holder ready for accepting the Stainless Steel insert.
Thank You to Rob Young some time ago now for supplying me with the original broken reel holder.
Screws to be used to secure the new Stainless steel insert into the existing nylon Reel Holder (M2.5 x 6mm Sckt Hd Csk)
Bearing Dimensions along with the critical width dimension of the dual bearings to establish the "Set Depth"
Let the Turning and Milling begin Phase Two!
[ May 29, 2017, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 29, 2017, 04:17 PM:
Last few before handing this lot over..
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 29, 2017, 04:20 PM:
Last few before handing this lot over..
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 30, 2017, 08:44 AM:
W.I.P. now.
Update next Monday when I will be collecting the first prototype for trial in use.
Once verified I hope to have a first pairing made and fitted inside a fortnight from now.
Results will be posted back here with any further findings and measurements obtained from the new Stainless Steel hubs and Solid Brass locking tabs.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 30, 2017, 08:51 AM:
Andrew
I hope the brass locking tabs will be chrome plated, or at the least, painted. Plain brass soon looks drab and uninteresting.
If aluminium had been used they could have been anodized.
An expensive projector needs the best.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 30, 2017, 08:56 AM:
It's polished solid brass Maurice. They can be easily removed at any given point in time to give them a buff with Autosol or the likes.
Just one M3 grub screw to release the locking tab away from the hub.
Brass was the only suitable material I had to hand at this point in time and something I used to use extensively to make heater straps for anti condensation heaters in large a.c. induction motors years ago.
Having stripped these down after 10-15 years in service, going from over 100 degrees centigrade down to freezing at times, I never noticed any great degree of tarnishing using this material.
If you want them chrome plated, electroplating or lacquered etc, no problem,..
But that's even more expense on top and for my own personal requirements, I consider it unnecessary to be honest.
Even the photos of the originals above, show some examples of discoloration to some of the original Beaulieu hubs.
This hopefully won't be the case in this instance given that these are made from Stainless Steel.
I can make tabs from this if anyone prefers?
http://www.screwfix.com/p/alfer-chrome-effect-anodised-aluminium-flat-bar-20-x-2-x-1000mm/6501p
[ May 30, 2017, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 30, 2017, 10:23 AM:
Andrew
I think the Screwfix chrome-effect anodised aluminium flat bar would be an excellent choice.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 30, 2017, 10:30 AM:
Screwfix chrome-effect anodised aluminium flat bar, it is then Maurice!
Thanks for the feedback!
Cheaper to buy than the brass strip I have too!
I have just spoken with the manufacturer and he has now altered the plans to incorporate the Chrome Flat Bar instead.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 30, 2017, 11:23 AM:
I think that's a great improvement. Glad you agreed, Andrew.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 30, 2017, 11:52 AM:
I am sure, once completed, this material will improve the aesthetic appeal over all Maurice.
I appreciate your input throughout.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 02, 2017, 05:19 AM:
I have just been speaking with the manufacturer regarding this work and all dimensions so far have worked out fine he was telling me.
A slight change of plan may prove necessary for the finished width of the chrome finished locking tab.
This may well turn out to require a finished width of 9mm instead of the previously planned 8mm width based entirely only on guess work unfortunately, at the time of submitting the drawings and all other photographs and data.
He assures me the first completed upgraded hub will be ready on Monday of next week and I should then have a pair ready for around Friday next week, ready to report back here upon, once fitted and working as a pair.
Future products may entirely be manufactured from aluminium to further aid fast production of these and also hopefully, slightly reduce the overall cost for other potential customers.
The Stainless Steel hubs will be fantastic but the material is of course extremely hard to drill, tap and mill, especially for such small machining profiles as is required for these.
He assures me he can get the appropriate sized round aluminium bar in cost effective small quantities in the future, which of course, is further great news for all Beaulieu users for the future.
The guy is also investing in some gear cutting used equipment for his small industrial workshop very soon.
That means there is a very good chance these could be made to identical replica standards without the need to have the original nylon ones modified in the future.
This would then improve this design above and beyond even the original Beaulieu HTI and later Studio reel holders once they can be made entirely from one solid Aluminium round bar!
[ June 02, 2017, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on June 02, 2017, 12:23 PM:
Hello Andrew,
I am following your very interesting project offering an upgraded option to install reels on Beaulieu.
For your information: -
-You can use Stainless Steel to cut the spindle on a lath.
I use a special Stainless steel aloy (Aloy with lead) wich make easy cutting. This material is well known by metal Worker (In French : "Inox de décolletage")
-To save money and time, you can use pre-cut Gears , available in Industry Hardware (Steel, Aluminium, or Nylon material). This is what I did for my spindles and that works pecfectly.
I used steel gears (Same Diam / Same Tooth size) and they were very easy to cut (Non treated material).
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 02, 2017, 02:52 PM:
Thanks Phil.
Yes my friend, i am acutely aware that you use a lathe to turn stainless steel but it is a harder material than most to do so with.
As such, tool tips, taps, dies and drills dont tend to weather as well over time and the material of choice for in the future will definitely be Aluminium.
Even Aluminium has its drawbacks so far as machining is concerned in that it tends to clog up in and around the tool tip when cutting it.
This however is something that is easier to live with than say snapping a semi blunt 2mm straight shank drill 10mm into a stainless steel component!😆😆
As for the gear wheel, i am happy to replicate the same method as Beaulieu themselves did by using the original nylon component amalgamated with the improved front spindle hub, but if someone without the later improved dual ball bearing nylon assembly wanted a set of these incorperating the ball bearings, it is nice to feel we have alternative plans to make this happen.☺☺
The manner in which these run over and beyond the original sleeve bearings is as different as chalk and cheese and both of my machines will have ball bearings fitted to their spindle hubs now very very soon.
The sleeve bearings really do hamper large rewinding tasks on these even with decent torque settings on the clutches
Try an experiment by simply swapping one over and youll instantly see what i mean!
[ June 03, 2017, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on June 02, 2017, 03:37 PM:
When you get to the final best version, I would certainly be a customer for a pair, Andrew. Sounds great!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 02, 2017, 05:44 PM:
I don't believe there will be MK1, MK2 and MK3 versions of these as they are already matching a proven successful and popular design.
If money was no object, then further improvements would see a 3 pin location peg system and ball latching mechanisms to do away with the need for a locking tab to facilitate quick release.
The thing is though, when pricing this little project up in the first instance, i was surprised by just how difficult it now is to get anyone interested in small batch orders of this kind, let alone making the project the mechanical equivelent of a cryptic crossword.
It was for these reasons why it was jointly decided to stick in the end with an existing and proven design so as to avoid pitfalls of prototyping and to ensure each time a component was manufactured at a cost, it wasnt just wasted expenditure on a trial test piece.
I think the only way my own hubs will differ in any way from most others made by him, is mine will be stainless and subsequent ones will be Aluminium.
If you have the original dual bearing type already on your machine Steven, modifying them into the HTI / Studio kind, should be very quick and simple after these have been made for me.☺
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on June 03, 2017, 01:29 AM:
Hi Andrew,
The last Spindle I made some years ago is fitted with 3 Bearings:
1 set of original "Dual bearings", plus an other one (call "guide bearing" on front tip shaft, a bit smaller , diam 5x8mm).
There is room enough to install it.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 03, 2017, 01:32 AM:
ok Phil, thanks for that.
fitting two of these tiny bearings is in itself a complete mystery to me.
If you look to reputable bearing suppliers like SKF, FAG etc, 3mm thickness on this size is actually quite difficult to find, even for miniature bearing standards.
They can be found, identifiable as a 685 code, but not easily at this width.
https://www.lily-bearing.com/ball-bearings/miniature-bearing/miniature-metr ic-bearings/685-bearing/
If they had fitted one bearing at one of the standard sizes of say 5mm thickness, one would have been more than sufficient given the load these experience and they then would have come as standard, shielded in either the 2Rs rubber shielded variant or ZZ, metal shielded.
This would have enabled them to be "sealed for life" type bearings requiring no further lubrication in their expected lifespan. Far better than none shielded "open" bearings for this application.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on June 03, 2017, 02:31 AM:
Hi Andrew,
In that case fitting dual bearings is not a question of load but merely a question of guiding quality.
A single ball bearing allows a floating rotation in case of lateral efforts.
A Dual ball bearing fitting give a perfect guidance(exemple, Cars bearings front wheel hubs). (As necessary you can increase gap between bearings to increase guidance quality, if you have room enough).
In my case I choose to ad an other one ,smaller, to increase guidance quality (instead to increase gap)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 03, 2017, 02:38 AM:
yes understood Phil and I agree with your assessment for long shafts but 2x 3mm bearings sat back to back with these provides nothing greater than a single 5mm thick bearing for what it is actually doing. The rear nylon flange where the gear is, also provides something of a guide as it sits directly over the bearing shaft rear boss.
If these two miniature bearings had been spaced out more with a spacer in between them, then I would have seen the purpose of fitting two bearings of such slight thickness within a limited space, far clearer than I currently do.
But not whilever they are sat right on top of one another.
Then, it may as well had just been one bearing of double the width of these that are used.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on June 03, 2017, 03:07 AM:
There is a big choice in bearings size so I have not compare each of them. The first idea was to keep original bearings as that works fine.
May be an other simple way should be to install a "single" needle bearing (5x9x9 for exemple). However to stay within size that needs a shaft in perfect condition (hardness and diameter).
A 5mm needle bearing working with its own sleeve has a higher outside diam (15mm instead of 9mm)
Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on June 03, 2017, 06:52 AM:
So you are using the original Beaulieu hubs? Or perhaps the Van Eck hubs. In my case I have original Beaulieu hubs on my machine plus a spare unused pair of the same with the bearings inside. Certainly I'm interested in either buying a pair or adapting mine. Andrew will you be able to offer the whole thing ready to go or would I have to adapt my own plastic hubs? Perhaps it is too early to say but I've always been interested in the metal parts with a clip over to secure the reel so I follow the thread with interest. Cheers!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 03, 2017, 11:30 AM:
You appear to have all of the necessary spare parts that are needed to submit your parts to me in order to create the metal replica spindle hubs Steven.
At this stage, they have to be the later type with the two bearings and they therefore have to be the official Beaulieu type, not Van Eck 3D replicas as these do not have the two bearings.
I do not have any spare parts to make these in advance as I only had 4 spindle hubs containing the ball bearings to serve eventually for the two machines that I have.
The project relies at this present time,in the owner or customer supplying their own nylon hubs with the bearings already fitted.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on June 04, 2017, 03:17 AM:
Incidentally, it doesn't matter if the splines or retaining lugs are damaged on any old submitted nylon Beaulieu hubs,.. in fact it is better from the customer's point of view that they are, as these then would otherwise be rendered completely useless apart from perhaps salvaging the bearings which will continue to be used anyhow with your new metal ones c/w locking tab.
All that is utilized when manufacturing the new metal spindles, is the rear portion of the nylon hub containing the bearings and the gear wheel.Just in the identical same way Beaulieu did the very same thing with theirs.
From this....
To this...
[ June 04, 2017, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Edwin van Eck (Member # 4690) on June 13, 2017, 03:17 AM:
Hi all,
I will make of new version of the Van Eck - Beaulieu 708 EL Reelholder (PP-0012)
https://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0012.html?_globalsearch=pp-0012
replacing the sinter bronze bearings, with ball bearings.
I keep you updated on the progress.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 13, 2017, 05:22 AM:
Excellent news, Edwin.
Do you have any idea of retail cost yet?
Posted by Edwin van Eck (Member # 4690) on June 14, 2017, 03:28 AM:
Hi,
I had just a meetings with my engineers about replacing the sinter bronze bearings with ball bearings.
There are possibilities here.
But first we need to know:
- has this modification been done?
- what is the difference between PP-0012 (2 sinter bronze bearings) compared to ball bearings?
- are two ball bearings being used, or one ball bearing and one sinter bronze bearing? (I have an original reel holder which comprises of one ball bearing and one sinter bronze bearing).
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on June 14, 2017, 04:04 AM:
Edwin , why not try a roller bearing, as used in the elmo, surely this is good alternative to using two different bearing types. I would question the reason for such use, after all this this a reel, not car wheel ?.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 06, 2017, 10:43 AM:
It would be interesting to hear from Andrew about how his project is progressing.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 06, 2017, 11:07 AM:
They are finished and working now Maurice thanks.
I have posted a thread with photographs of them and also written about the eventual outcome after some modification over on another forum Maurice, if you are interested.
The replica "Studio" spindles work well and I am extremely pleased with the outcome from this venture.
[ July 06, 2017, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 07, 2017, 02:43 AM:
Andrew
Many Forum members, including myself, actively followed your very interesting postings. As an owner of two Beaulieus I am well aware of the poorly designed spool spindles, considering that it's an up-market model.
Borrowing an old well-known catchphrase of Magnus Magnusson TVs Mastermind "I've started so I'll finish", would you kindly consider doing the same with details of your completed project.
My two 708s now have complete spindles, but I do have a box containing two spindles, each with broken or damaged retaining clips. Perhaps these could be uprated sometime.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 07, 2017, 02:51 AM:
Out of courtesy to yourself Maurice and one or two others who expressed an interest at the time, I will copy and paste what I concluded elsewhere regarding this venture and then post it here for you later Maurice.
I will post a few of the photos from there, but to post all here would neither be possible or permitted sorry.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 07, 2017, 02:57 AM:
That would be great. I'm particularly interested in the cost. Your kind action is appreciated.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 07, 2017, 04:46 AM:
Here is what has been previously posted Maurice,..
Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:10 pm
Collected and fitted the first of my new spindle hubs today. Works very well and I am pleased with the results.
I will have a matching pair by Wednesday with a little luck.
Then Alan kindly wrote back "Looks Great!"
Then,..
Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:35 am
I am just about to go to the workshop now to see the guy who created the stainless spindle hub and tab.
He wants this first one back to verify and reference all dimensions while making the second one.
This one I have asked for a smaller pin on. I got my figures wrong to begin with by requesting that the pin diameter should be 2mm.
2mm works out fine for Elmo "Jewel" reels and the large Beaulieu /Posso reels, which is what I based my dimensions on, however some other plastic reels require only a 1.5mm Dowel pin to act as a key to insert into their slots.
So this dowel is being removed and then replaced with a 1.5mm SS type that will then fit all spools.
All else worked out absolutely fine though I am pleased to say and that includes the manner in which the reels lock on all of the ones I have been able to fit so far.
I instructed the engineer to make the centre point of the diagonal keyway slot in the tab to be point where it touches on the reel. This way it allows smaller thinner reels still to be able to lock securely while also having around 50% of the slot free to allow the reels to be released easily.
This part I am really pleased with as a first off, as it worked out exactly how I wished it to.
The second hub is going to take longer now while I wait for M1.5x 8mm Stainless Steel dowels to arrive with me as I had to order these online In the end as they are not an easy size to pick up from Engineering Merchants.
I still should have the finished first pair back with me in around a week's time with any luck.
The most critical aspect in all of this, so far as a successful working hub is concerned, is ensuring the 6.5mm counterbored hole is just to a critical depth.
0.5mm too long and the spindle has endfloat in it and will not lock to the original shaft without axial movement, 0.5mm too short and the new spindle hub simply locks up when tightening the internal shaft retaining screw. He left this purposefully short and i then finished drilled it to the exact critical depth to suit the shaft length at home, so he can then replicate it on the next one.
We now have an exact precise dimension for this to allow all subsequent ones to be made without trial in future.
Then we received a series of questions from Edwin Van Eck..
"Hi,
I had just a meetings with my engineers about replacing the sinter bronze bearings with ball bearings.
There are possibilities here.
But first we need to know:
- has this modification been done?
- what is the difference between PP-0012 (2 sinter bronze bearings) compared to ball bearings?
- are two ball bearings being used, or one ball bearing and one sinter bronze bearing? (I have an original reel holder which comprises of one ball bearing and one sinter bronze bearing)."
--------------------
Edwin van Eck
Van Eck Video Services
To which i replied...
First question...
"Has this modification been done?"
Not quite sure what is meant by that question Edwin sorry, so I will have to answer that one by asking another question in return...
Has what modification been done?
Second question.
"What are the differences between the two sintered bronze bearing design and the ball bearing design ?
Originally Beaulieu issued all mono and early twin track duoplay projectors with nylon hubs containing one singular sleeve bronze bearing of around 10mm in length.
These work very well up to a point and customers were complaining of premature motor failure due to excessive loads being placed on them by trying to drive the larger reels using these bronze sleeve bearings.
The rewinding of full 2200ft reels of film proved particularly detrimental to the well being of the motor windings long term health.
Beaulieu then modified their existing Nylon hubs by removing the bronze sleeve bearing and moulding a larger cavity within the rear section of the hub to then place two back to back slim fitting self contained ball bearing units inside the cavity.
This proved very successful and gave far greater velocity and far less drag or friction on the hub bearing and drive motor, once this modification was completed and was then subsequently implemented to every machine that was built thereafter.
This was around the time the Stereo model was first released.
Early examples of these hubs show signs of where the previous bronze bearing design had been fitted but then retrospectively a cavity was bored to the outer section within the nylon to accommodate the two ball bearings.
Later nylon spindle hubs and indeed the ones which can be ordered still from Wittners, omitted the bronze bearing insert altogether and simply added the moulded cavity into the nylon hub with no insert of any kind.
There is no benefit whatsoever by having the bronze bearing even in part form, alongside the two ball bearings in their own cavity or chamber.
If you have an original Beaulieu hub Edwin, with some of the old bronze bearing insert in tact plus the cavity or chamber with only one ball bearing fitted, it is because one has become misplaced somewhere along the way.
All have both the space and necessity to require two ball bearings per hub to be fitted to allow the assembly to both fit correctly as well as work correctly.
The spindle hubs I am replicating above, came much later and were fitted only to a few select models, namely the HTI 250w models, some fade computer models and then all of the later 93 Stereo Studio models.
Contrary to what you may hear Edwin, my advice, always based on my own extensive experiences and extended research with these things,would be to simply discontinue the original sintered bronze sleeve bearing design that you replicated from the original Beaulieu nylon hubs and do as they did, and supersede your design using the twin ball bearing arrangement as these in practice are far superior in use than the early design and subsequently, do not cause any issues with premature motor failure or indeed excessive overloading / overheating.
then,..
Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:48 am
Just returned from visiting the workshop to collect my second piece. I now have two completed pieces ready to fit on the first machine. Will test extensively throughout the day using various different reel sizes and types.
There shouldn't be any issues however as the pin diameter is now 1.5mm and luckily, the Stainless Steel ones arrived in time for the Engineer to fit those prefered kind thankfully.
These photos also show some of the tooling and stock engineering parts required to make this venture into a reality.
There may be a chance future ones of these may be entirely made from one piece stainless or aluminium round bar (except for the locking tab of course), as he has now invested in a dividing head for milling small gears accurately.
It makes no real difference to the end product except to say these would then become readily available to anyone whether they have the later Beaulieu nylon hubs with the dual ball bearings fitted or not, as the case may be.
There is more to conclude, but i'd need a reply first before I may post more photographs on the conclusion once these were fitted.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 07, 2017, 06:00 AM:
Andrew
Many thanks for the quite fantastic details of the new spindles.
It would be interesting to know when you may be in a position to accept orders.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 07, 2017, 07:22 AM:
Here now then, is the conclusion..
Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:51 pm
Initial checks show the second phase work has been entirely successful as here is one such reel previously, that would not easily fit onto the 2mm SS Drive Pin.
Now it fits perfectly over and onto the 1.5mm type.
Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:13 pm
Fitted and working perfectly during first trials. )
From the smallest, to the largest,..no problem!
If you are interested in having a pair of these made for yourself Maurice, please contact me by PM for details surrounding costing and manufacturing lead times etc etc.
The Aluminium strip doesn't particularly look like polished chrome btw by the time it has been machined and then polished to remove any marks from manufacturing the diagonal slot etc.
It still looks in keeping however to match the smart Stainless Steel finish of the spindle hubs and is more than sufficient at serving it's purpose as a retaining clip for these.
The project at this time does however rely on the owner supplying his own nylon spindles c/w two Ball Bearings per assembly.
I will link a short video here of these spindles in action both playing a movie and then rewinding using them, later this evening.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on July 07, 2017, 11:08 AM:
Hi Andrew,
Great Job !!!
Is there a spring inside spindle just behind Tab ?
What you wrote about Brass Bearings is very instructive !!!
That confirm me it is important to install Ball Bearings instead of brass bushings.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 07, 2017, 11:27 AM:
Thank you Phil and no, there is no spring fitted or indeed necessary.
It wouldn't help in any way for this design.
The design works entirely just from being a clamped "wedge" fit by the tapered slotted locking tab pushing onto the outer face of the reel and then the rear abutment face of the spindle hubs providing the rear clamping surface.
Once you push down firmly onto the locking tab after the reel is fitted, it remains firmly clamped until the tab is pulled upon again.
[ July 07, 2017, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on July 09, 2017, 06:47 AM:
Hi Andrew,
I understand your engineer can use a Dividing Head now.
That could be a good source to work out new gears for projector(s) to replace ugly Nylon ones.
Do you think ?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 09, 2017, 08:25 AM:
It would mean that these would be even higher in cost to produce Phil.
It would also mean these replica "Studio" hubs would then be made from one piece stainless steel minus the rear washer and retaining clip of course.
Furthermore, what this would facilitate until such time as Edwin produces his new improved nylon hubs with the two ball bearings fitted, is an ability for any Beaulieu owner to obtain a set of these with or without the later original hubs already to hand to act as a donor for these.
In reality, I see no difference in the standard of manufacture between using a full stainless steel hub including the gear section or alternatively, doing as Beaulieu did and utilizing the rear nylon gear and bearing section of the nylon hubs and then incorporating the stainless section by integrating it through the machining processes.
They both would work in exactly the same manner and to the very same standards, I would predict.
Just that the all Stainless Steel arrangement would cost far more to produce.
I have never had any issues with nylon gear section of the hubs with these and cannot envisage how anyone ever would to be honest, as there is really nothing to wear out on these.
Reading you post differently Phil, if you are implying that gearwheels or other such components other than those associated directly with the spindle hubs could possibly be manufactured by this same engineer by using the new dividing head machinery, then yes, of course this may now be a possibility in the future for any round metal component that isn't a cast component in it's original form.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on July 09, 2017, 09:15 AM:
Yes Andrew, I was thinking about gears "Inside" the machine which are showing different diameters and tooth pitch.
I assume the more difficult to work out is the "angled" gear (I am afraid angle value is not a standard), the first one which take the motion.
For the others (stright gears) I am trying to find "Blank" ones (from Industry Hardware) which can be rework to adapt thickness and bores.
[ July 16, 2017, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: Phil Murat ]
Posted by Edwin van Eck (Member # 4690) on January 20, 2018, 04:38 AM:
Hello Andrew, et all,
Again, thanks for testing the Beaulieu 708EL reel holders with ball bearings.
The ball bearings are ready and available for sale!
We have even further improved it by using closed ball bearings to prevent dust polluting the bearings!
Ordering and more info: https://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0235.html?_globalsearch=pp-0235
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