8mm Forum: HTI Question to Beaulieu Owners.

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Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 05:49 AM:

Following on from the superb post Alan gave us all recently regarding his magnificent Fumeo HTI (Xenon) machine, I was wondering if owners of the Beaulieu equivalent, felt that the additional fan bolted onto the front of the lamp house was only ever fitted to keep the lamp house cool while the lamp was warming to full temperature without the main fan and the machine itself actually running. In other words, while the dowser was in situ?

I know this is a tricky thing to predict without doing some kind of scientific research using an airflow manometer and temperature gun or thermocouple etc etc, but I found it very very interesting to learn that Alan's Fumeo could survive quite happily without additional cooling over and above the one provided for the standard 200w halogen model.

Also does the additional lamp house fan strike up as soon as the machine has power applied to it?

Can anyone measure what the lamp reflector temperature rises to at full working temperature on the HTI models please?

Your thoughts please, to anyone who has experience using these machines?

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on March 30, 2017, 08:09 AM:

I've owned 2 of the Beaulieu HTI machines and the interesting thing is the 1st model I had used a dowser. The later models did not use a dowser. I think it was stated on another forum, the Super 8 one in Spain, that Beaulieu stopped using the dowser because sometimes it wouldn't come down properly as it wasn't a very good mechanism and if it failed you would burn your film.
The downside to that is when the machine was stopped the lamp would turn off. Then you had to strike the lamp for the next reel, and then the color would have to get to temperature again, etc. A good argument to put your films onto larger reels!
The fan on both models always stayed on the minute the power button was clicked on.
My GS Xenon has the same fan as the regular GS but it runs much faster and so its noisier. I'm sure Alan can chime in here....since your Fumeo HTI uses the standard fan, does it run faster and louder than your standard Fumeo? My guess is it would have to.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 08:25 AM:

Thanks Alan that is very good information for me thank you.

The thing is Alan, if I am not mistaken, the Fumeo standard fan is driven only off the main drive shaft as far as I am aware, just as the Beaulieu one does likewise, after all, both of these machines only use one solitary motor to drive the film through to the spools so far as I am aware at least?
certainly that is the case for the Beaulieu models.

If this was the case, then unless Alan's machine now uses a separate mechanism or separate motor to drive the cooling fan, there is no way it's speed can be uprated unless it then utilizes some kind of gearing mechanism from the main drive shaft?

If I was upgrading my own Dual Track 708, I'd like to use a stepper motor from an old NJD Datamoon I have with a modified Gobo wheel attached to provide the dowser mechanism, which I feel is essential for correct presentation purposes, just so the lamp can be at full luminosity prior to starting the film.

With a large amount of leader in place, and with a dowser reliably fitted and electronically controlled, i am wondering if the extra cooling fan would even prove necessary, especially if a heat protection split glass arrangement was also fitted between the lamp and the rear gate? (similar to what the ST1200 uses)

There is plenty of room in there I think to facilitate this.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on March 30, 2017, 08:43 AM:

Good catch Andrew, this special Fumeo the fan runs continuous as soon as the unit is plugged in. I have not compared it direct yet to the standard Fumeo but the speed may have been increased. I plan to check this later as well.
The Beaulieu HTI that I have has the shutter that Alan mentions. The Beaulieu is also a very bright machine I find it much brighter then the Xenon Elmo GS1200.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 08:47 AM:

Yes Alan, despite it's cost, this is most certainly the lamp of choice so far as brightness levels are concerned.

Interesting that you say the fan comes on from the moment the machine is switched on Alan.

Presumably then, this machine has a separate electric fan and must be of a somewhat different build internally, to a standard 9119 if I am remembering correctly, how these look inside?

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on March 30, 2017, 10:23 AM:

There is a collector in Spain that has the Beaulieu 708 Studio HPL Xenon. One of the last models they made before closing shop and his model has no dowser. I wish my Beaulieu had the dowser!
So much more convenient.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 10:35 AM:

It's an absolute must I would say Alan, when using these powerful lamps, and equally not overly difficult to fit one given the room inside this particular lamphouse.

I am truly astonished to learn some don't have this facility, given the time that these lamps take to fully illuminate.

I am just in two minds at this stage as to whether the same can be said for additional cooling. It may not be, dependant on what Alan reports regarding the fan speed on his Fumeo compared to that of a standard 9119.

We wait and see, for now.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 30, 2017, 01:24 PM:

Hello Andrew and Beaulieus' Fan, interesting TIP you put there.....

I have somewhere the idea to test a Xenon conversion (when some other projects will be well advanced....) But I would like to keep same power (150W Xenon is enough I assume).
Concerning an improved Cooling system , it should be interesting to experience "water" cooling as done in upgraded computers.
Also the original turbine installed burns power amount from the main motor.
On this particular point GS1200 is more advanced.....
Anyway, I ll never cut original Lamp Cover to install an exhaust fan....

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 02:39 PM:

Phil if you're happy enough with 150 watts of Xenon light power, then the Xenpow lamp has been proven on these projectors without the need for any additional cooling, just the same fan as is currently used for the halogen models.

A dowser though of course, of some kind, will be essential.

I believe the light output from these lamps are incredible for a 150w Xenon H.I.D. Lamp and other good news is they fit directly in the existing lamp holder.

Just add Ballast! [Smile]

The lamps themselves are £65 from DJ kit.com
https://www.djkit.com/replacement-lamps/xenpow-hid-150-lamp.html

These are rated at 1000 hours expected lifespan.

Look in the review section on this website, and you might see a certain Keith Wilton praising this lamp and it's output brightness levels! [Smile]

[ March 30, 2017, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 30, 2017, 02:45 PM:

Andrew , I have a problem when translating "Dowser" in French ... [Roll Eyes]

Does it mean something like a "flapper" ?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 02:53 PM:

It is just a term used to describe a shield that drops into place between the light output and the gate to protect your film while it is stationary.

A similar device can be seen on an Elmo ST 1200 for still frame facility. This one has tiny holes in a round steel plate that allow some residual light to shine through the gate to allow a still frame to still be viewed albeit at far less brightness levels, while protecting the still frame from the heat from the lamp.

A dowser for the use on a HID Xenon lamp would simply allow the lamp to reach full luminosity before and during lace up of the film. Then the dowser would move upwards or downwards to allow the full lamp power onto the moving frames through the gate, just as the film is about to begin.

The dowser should be electronically connected so if the film transport mechanism stops for any reason, the dowser comes back over the lamp again to protect the film once again.

Ironically, while visiting Italy recently for some industrial machinery, they used the term doser to mean Launcher in English??
I had no idea what they were referring to until they pointed to the launchers on the machine!

Phil a flapper where I come from, is another word for an apprentice! 😂😂😂 just a joke everyone!!! No more..I promise.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 30, 2017, 03:05 PM:

Yes, from our side, we are used to call that "Guillotine".....Very sad "revolutionary" system used in "old times" [Wink]

An other point very interesting to emphasize is Xenon lamp last 3000H approx for 50H an Halogen bulb.
However Xenon Lamp doesn't like ON/OFF cycles....

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 30, 2017, 03:11 PM:

Correct Phil and just like a video projector, you want the lamp to strike once then remain fully illuminated until your projection session is complete.
Then leave to fully cool for a considerable time period before packing the machine away again.

These lamps lend themselves best to projectors used to view full features in one run, ideally in a exhibition room or hall.

I wouldn't want to fit one of these lamps to a machine used mainly to show short films in a domestic environment, personally.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 31, 2017, 09:29 AM:

Andrew, May be you remember I already asked if a U/V filter is installed between Xenon Bulb and Gate. The answer was No.
Due to a supposed High Level U/V production , I am suprised there is nothing to prevent from Film discoloration.
So, question for Xenon Machines Users : Did you observe colors changing on your favorite movies times after playing times in a Xenon Machine?

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 31, 2017, 10:00 AM:

High Phil, The elmo xenon has a u/v filter built into the housing that surrounds the lamp, so is in line permanently to reflect back the heat and harmful u/v rays, as to the other question on film fading when using this type of light source, I have not noticed this, but prolonged use I would think has to affect it in time, but the difference in colour film on the screen is really something else with this lamp temperature nearer the blue/whiter range than the white/yellow of a standard lamp, some of the later lamps use different gas in the envelope so much better.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on March 31, 2017, 10:48 AM:

I have noticed a few things. One is the HTI is brighter than the Xenon in the GS1200.
Also the GS Xenon has a bluish tint to the image while the HTI seems whiter.
When I was a projectionist at a film lab we use to print films on 16mm for Disney. They always made a separate print for Xenon projection for use with Xenon projectors. They were timed/color corrected for the difference in lamp temperature.
I haven't noticed a shift in my color prints but then again if it was so gradual I probably wouldn't notice unless I A/B'd them side by side.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on March 31, 2017, 11:24 AM:

I don't have access to an HTI projector to make this comparison Alan, but I do use night club style fixtures that use HID lamps and these are brilliant white light, so these would be more favourable to use with coloured dichroic coloured glass and filters so there would be less colour difference when matching fixtures, this would transfer to a film frame by not adding any coloured light.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 31, 2017, 12:34 PM:

Hi Paul, Rik

Very instructive answers.

So I understand there is a U/V filter installed closed to the bulb, as long as it works, the film does not suffer discoloration even upon numerous playings.

Very interesting to know Disney made special prints with Color Tone corrected to cope with Xenon lamps brands.

So is it easy to find these U/V shields (Special Glass or Quartz material , I assume) ???

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on April 01, 2017, 04:35 AM:

Hi Phil, Its certainly made from glass, with a reflective coating on it to reflect back the heat and u/v rays, I would say its very much like a neutral density filter 1a for an slr on the Elmo, as Alan says they give off more of a blue/white light, they call them a sky light filters, cuts down the blue haze we can't detect from a bright sunny day getting to the picture, giving it a blue cast effect. I have no idea has to how much light output this cuts back, never did any test on it, but I do remember they did work well on my on slr camera, as to there heat reflectivity, I would not like to speculate on this, if anything the glass has a slight pink hue to it from memory.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 01, 2017, 10:32 AM:

As mentioned by Andrew, I can recommend the conversion to use a 150 watt Xenpow HID lamp. As I said some time ago, I have this conversion in my 16mm Bell & Howell 644. It will, of course, need a dowser.
The Ballast power unit is a further item that is required.
https://www.bltdirect.com/tridonic-digital-electronic -ballast-150w-cdmt-remote?adcid=pla&gclid=CITz85XIg9MCFcsK0wod4o8EMQ

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2017, 02:00 PM:

Did you require any extra cooling provision for this machine Maurice, after fitting the H.I.D. lamp?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 01, 2017, 03:11 PM:

The separate blower motor for the original 1000 watt lamp was removed. This gave room for the ballast.
A small permanently wired fan was installed for the new cooler lamp.
The perforated still unit was replaced by a solid piece to act as a dowser.
To operate the dowser, the still wiring was altered to run by selecting the "lamp on" position of the main control knob.
A new toggle switch was fitted to control the lamp circuit.
A new lamp holder was furnished by using the original condenser lens assembly (minus the glass wear.)
The original f1.4 lens was replaced by a faster f1.2.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 01, 2017, 03:32 PM:

Wow, thanks Maurice for that highly detailed explanation of your upgrade. Are you happy with the brightness levels from it Maurice?

Did it match or exceed your expectations?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 02, 2017, 02:16 AM:

Regarding the light output, as the washing products say, "It's whiter than white". And very bright.
The conversion is not cheap, but for owners of xenon lamp projectors who will eventually face great problems in obtaining replacement lamps, it is a good thing to consider.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 02, 2017, 05:12 AM:

Thanks again Maurice and i,d personally, expect to be able to convert the twin track for around the £200 mark, which i dont think is too bad really considering the lamps are rated at 1000hrs each. [Smile]

Posted by Stuart Reid (Member # 1460) on April 04, 2017, 03:14 AM:

£200 for HTI conversion Andrew? Money very well spent in my opinion.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 04, 2017, 05:47 AM:

Hi Andrew, 1000Hrs as expected Life duration sounds to me quite low, do you confirm ?
Announced times for VideoPrpjectors Xenon life is more or less around 4000Hrs (6000 Hrs Eco Use, derated power).

Are these Xenon offering a different technology ?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 04, 2017, 05:49 AM:

Some details, Phil.
http://www.djsupplies.co.uk/hid-150w-lamp-acme-xenpow-395-p.asp

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2017, 10:34 AM:

these Details are correct as Maurice has now explained.
It is around half the expected lifespan that other Metal Halide lamps I have previously come across, tend to last for, but it is far cheaper than those also.

Stuart, the reason why I figured I could bring this home on my twin track for around £200, is simply because I feel I would not need to spend on parts for a Dowser mechanism as I think I'd already have enough old working spares from old Disco lighting fixtures to be able to make a professional appearance and functioning Dowser for zero outlay.

The project would stand me at the cost for the outlay of the ballast and lamp and then just a few other electrical components from RS or Maplin to complete the work successfully I think.

Let's also remember, the fact this fits straight into the existing lamp holder etc, also helps.

This price point assumes I need no further cooling but this has been done before and proved successful by a projector
Specialist.

The Beaulieu built in fan is a highly efficient fan for exhausting the heat from the lamp and has all metal ducting acting as a fan cowl to safely do so without the risk of melting any plastic components anywhere.
The lamp house itself is also all metal with no risk from very high temperatures in there.

It would still interest me greatly though beforehand, to find out exactly what temperature these Xenpow H.I.D. lamps run at compared to the A1 232 Xenophot.

The twin track also only contains a fixed 3 bladed shutter.
2/3 bladed ones are still available, but as we know, at considerable cost.

If we factor this modification into the project to complete it, the overall cost for me would then look more like £500.

The Stereo model I have, does already contain a variable shutter, but as said previously, I do not feel these type of conversions lend themselves entirely to a one for all solution where the projection of film is concerned.

The HTI/ HID type very much lend themselves towards the screening of full features in one run, while the halogen lamp is the perfect type of lamp for all kinds of films projected in the home environment.
It powers up and down as often as you like, achieves full levels of brightness instantaneously,remains perfectly bright enough within the home for all screen sizes when on two blades and keeps the machine in its original authentic state.

It is for the above reasons why I would never for one moment, consider converting my Stereo model, but would then like to add an additional high intensity model alongside it, just maybe to use for exhibition hall use one day and for the feature full length runs in the home,especially for the all consuming scope screenings that really do test your lamp power to its limit.
For all of these reasons I figure I could use a high power model, but only so long as there is no additional fan noise incurred after carrying out the modification.

[ April 05, 2017, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on April 04, 2017, 12:44 PM:

Hello Maurice, Andrew

Sure this is a very exciting project, with different options to be consider.....
I am thinking too about a seperate motor dedicated to Cooling Fan to deload main motor and to keep a constant Speed Fan independantly from Main Motor speed.
So the idea is to have main motor only devoted to film motion (Claw, Sprockets)

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2017, 02:57 PM:

Maurice, are you able to take a temperature reading of your Xenpow lamp in run at full working temperature/ light output?

Phil, i personally dont believe you have too much to concern yourself by from the minimal load applied to the main motor by driving the fan. It is a tiny fractional proportion of the overall load encountered by this motor carrying out all of its normal duties.
I'd be much more inclined to concern myself more by rewinding the large reels using the older type spindles than i ever would by worrying myself regarding this particular aspect here.

Motors are ten a penny now (as you know) and so far i've never had one fail yet through one overloading for any reason.

[ April 05, 2017, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on April 05, 2017, 03:57 AM:

Andrew
Sorry. I have no facilities to measure the lamp's temperature, but I can say it's quite minimal.
As it is advertised as something of a replacement for the ELC, one would assume the working temperature would be similar.
Holding my hand at the top of the 644's lamp house, there is only a gentle warmth being emitted.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 05, 2017, 04:02 AM:

Thanks again Maurice, that'll do for me. [Smile]

I will make a start on this now then in the summer months ahead.
I needed to quieten it down a little anyhow to match my other, I will time this work in with this project now and post some pics and video when it is all complete.

Thanks once again here Maurice for your valuable input on this one. It has been extremely helpful for me.

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