8mm Forum: Help! What cloths do you use with FilmGuard?

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Posted by Martin Dew (Member # 5748) on July 25, 2017, 12:58 PM:

I've just noticed a nasty green enamel scratch on the second reel of a valuable film. It occurs only after a reel change splice. I've deduced that it could only have happened while I was cleaning the film last week. I know my projector is not the culprit because I use test films to constantly check gate and path cleanliness (as well as using alcohol and appropriate gate brushes, Q-tips etc.).

I assume that while cleaning over the splice (which is still in good condition and not flayed), something must have deposited itself on my cleaning cloth. I usually use clean white cuts of t-shirts doused in FilmGuard, but I have never had a problem before using this method.

If any of you have other ideas of what easily available cloths or material to use, please let me know. Thanks!

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 25, 2017, 01:59 PM:

Nothing wrong with using cut up cotton T-shirts. I use a cotton hankerchief but I don't douse it with FilmGuard. Instead, I mount the film on a cine editor and apply it to both sides of the exposed film between the reels, using an artists number 2 paint brush. I then sandwich the film with the hankerchief and wind 50 feet or so through. The process is repeated until the end of the film is reached. You don't need to use much FilmGuard as a little goes a long way. I sandwich the film again when I rewind to remove the surplus.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 25, 2017, 02:02 PM:

Martin that is so annoying
This has only happened to me once and believe me i have cleaned many thousands of feet of film over the years. A lesson i learned the hard way. On my film, (fortunately not a top title), i let the cloth go a bit too dry and toward the last 50/100 ft of film there were two horrible orangy coloured enamel scratches. I went bonkers at myself.
1/ I now only use 100% cotton hankerchiefs, i find these really work well.
2/ Dont over apply, (lesson learned again), BUT dont let the cloth run too dry,
3/ TURN THAT CLOTH FREQUENTLY. re apply very little and DONT press too hard.
4/ What we do is, once i clean the film from one spool to the other, i then reverse clean it again, this time i only apply a little cleaner ONCE and rewind the film through the cloth but with a lighter touch, i find this gives the last 50 ft a good clean, (this often gets less cleaned than the rest of the film), and it also spreads the filmguard nice and evenly. If that first 50ft looks a little too wet i wind it back a little and run this section through a dry but CLEAN part of the hanky.

Thankfully since using this method i have never done any damage to any of our films during cleaning. [Wink]

Blimy Will, you must be septic [Big Grin]

When i put my reply on i then saw your reply which you must have added as i was typing this. which is pretty much what we do. [Wink]

Great minds think alike old bean [Big Grin]

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 25, 2017, 04:36 PM:

I think you mean I must be psychic, Tom! LOL.

Posted by Martin Dew (Member # 5748) on July 25, 2017, 06:18 PM:

Thanks, Will and Tom. Nothing I did seems inconsistent with what you've both suggested. I could have used too much cleaner, I suppose, but FilmGuard has always seemed to be so forgiving. I've even tried really rough cleaning on some of my silent test reels just to make sure my methods weren't dubious, and none of my prints suffered. Clearly, it's back to the workshop on this.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 25, 2017, 06:49 PM:

Martin,even the kindest of film paths don't always respond well to a splice, especially a less than 100% perfect one.

It introduces a small, yet none flexible (rigid) section of film into the gate that both changes the loop momentarily, as well as acting like a pipe cleaner for any debris in it's path.

It might just be a slightly unlucky splice that has caused this and many many films I have owned and received over the years show wear either immediately after threading or immediately after a mid reel splice.

It's cruel when this happens, but it does happen and the best advice I can give for the future regarding this scenario, is to use a two frame splicer like a C.I.R. type.

Initially costly but deadly accurate and precise, and almost unnoticeable as it travels through the sprockets and the gate and will save you dividends in the long run with the better prints.

I doubt this story would ever have come about with a film made up only of one singular unbroken length of film like a 1 x 600ft mini feature for example.

Other watchouts I have learned the hard way, is never place a film through your machine immediately after changing a lamp without thoroughly cleaning everything first!

I will explain why tomorrow! [Wink]

Posted by Martin Dew (Member # 5748) on July 26, 2017, 04:49 AM:

Thanks, Andrew. Yes, I wait with bated breath to find out how a new lamp can affect the film path. Although, actually, I'm so pedantic about cleaning my S938, I don't think that will have been the culprit in this case.

But it's also intriguing what you say about a splice acting like a pipe cleaner, lifting hidden particles and presumably dropping them somewhere else in the path.

Clearly, as you say, there's another advantage too of owning a CIR splicer. I will keep on the lookout for one. I currently use the Kodak Presstape machine which produces very clean accurate splices, but it does cover 4 frames, not 2. I am learning new things every day, but it's good to know that I'm not the only person who has experienced frustrating symptoms like I described in my first post.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on July 26, 2017, 09:10 AM:

Yes Martin, you may very well be quite correct in that your film path was meticulously clean, like i believe just all about all owners of films and projectors strive for at all times.

It is just that because a splice adds extra thickness and rigidity to the usual flexible nature of film, it also then has a tendency to detract from a perfect top and bottom loop as a splice (especially 4 frame splices) passes through the path.
This in turn can mean it touches parts of the film path that ordinarily, beyond thread, it really ought not to.

It may well have happened during cleaning and not during projection, but it is just something to bear in mind and is definitely less than coincidental that many used prints that have been previously joined together, can often display an emulsion scratch immediately after a splice for a time.
On occasions, I can even tell when the projectionist has horrifyingly discovered what is happening before his/ her very eyes, and then shut down the machine to see what was happening!

As for the change of lamp scenario that once caught me out,..
If you have noticed some white debris falling from your old lamp as you prise away the lamp socket, you will notice that this chalky hard substance used as insulation between the pins by the lamp manufacturers is extremely sharp and hard as rock!

Once I stopped the mid run to change the lamp that blew.
I cleaned the above stated debris away from the base of the lamp house but a tiny particle of it somehow transferred to the gate area or film path maybe via my fingers somehow??

The minute i started the film running again, a very long green centre scratch was appearing on screen.

Now if a lamp blows mid run, I simply run the reel to its end without a lamp, then rewind it before changing the lamp and cleaning everywhere before threading another reel of film through it.
A highly unlikely event, yet nevertheless highly costly one which will not be happening here again in the future!
[Big Grin]

Posted by Martin Dew (Member # 5748) on July 26, 2017, 09:56 AM:

Yes, I've noticed the chalky deposits from the lamp socket. I blew those all away at the time of swap-outs, and double-checked the path too.

Nevertheless, all very points and gratefully received. Last night I practised threading then removing an old piece of film from the S938 mid-projection. I didn't think it was possible but it can be done quite cleanly and easily. If ever I'm in doubt as to whether damage is occurring prior to entering the gate during projection, it's good to know that the film can be completely removed.

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