8mm Forum: Am I washing off the colors by using isopropyl alcohol?

This is topic Am I washing off the colors by using isopropyl alcohol? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 29, 2017, 04:18 PM:

I've been using 91% isopropyl alcohol to clean my films but I noticed rainbow color stains on the cloth. Does this mean I'm washing off the colors?
I prefer non-toxic cleaners that don't require gloves. Is there one better than isopropyl alcohol?

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 29, 2017, 04:57 PM:

I use 100% Isopropyl Alcolhol to clean the gates and film paths on projectors. I've never thought of using it to clean films. You're better off using something safer like FilmGuard as it not only cleans but lubricates as well.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 29, 2017, 05:36 PM:

I don't need the lubrication plus they are oily, toxic and require gloves.

I found out this is a normal side effect for old films. I guess the dye disintegrates after many years.

[ July 30, 2017, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Robert Lee ]

Posted by Mike Spice (Member # 5957) on July 30, 2017, 07:39 AM:

rainbow stains on the cloth should be an alarm bell.
I think IPA is far too strong.
I have a friend who is head of restoration at the BFI, I asked him about cleaning my 8mm.
He said if all I have is a damp microfibre cloth moisend with de ionised water, that would take the dust and hairs off.
Unless you are going for deep cleaning, then you realy do need proper film cleaning liquid.
IPA will also disolve any sound track on your films

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 09:29 AM:

But pretty much all film cleaning liquid are toxic and requires gloves, so I rather clean with a damp cloth using filtered tap water.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 30, 2017, 10:25 AM:

Filmguard is the exception, very much non toxic at all and very safe, no harmful vapours. [Wink]

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 10:30 AM:

I didn't know that. Is Filmguard oily like Film Renew? Is it fast drying like IPA? I might get it if it's not oily and fast drying.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 30, 2017, 10:54 AM:

I would never recommend using any form of water to clean film. I have one or two films that have suffered water damage and it destroys the emulsion, both picture image and sound track. Recommended film cleaning liquids may be oily but they will not damage the emulsion and they do the intended job.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 30, 2017, 11:46 AM:

Back in the 70's I used to treat my films with 2.22. This left on very light brown mark from the magnetic stripes and on secondhand prints cleaned them nicely. You could see the dirt on the cloth. You only needed to clean them once. Now forty years or so later they still have the lubrication on them, but to me it doesn't seem oily. Sadly it properly was toxic due to the fumes.

One of my 16mm prints has the same problem with the colour coming off at the time it had no vinegar smell, but was warped on the last reel. The cleaner I used on this would be Vita Film or Film Renew?

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 11:49 AM:

Looks like IPA is the only choice for non-oily, fast drying cleaning liquid. IPA has good feedback from several internet forums on cleaning film.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 30, 2017, 12:04 PM:

You may find this thread useful to,

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011621#000000

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 12:16 PM:

This website doesn't recommend filmguard, so I assume it's not a reliable site? http://16mmfilminfo.com/clean.html

Posted by Mike Spice (Member # 5957) on July 30, 2017, 02:08 PM:

In response to Terry Sills saying water should never be used and water damage...tap water no, no, no.. of course...
My best friend is the head of the BFI film restoration at the Berkhampstead division.
He is of the mind that de ionised water on a microfibre cloth will not do any damage to your films...
There is a distinct difference to 'water damage' and a microfibre cloth moistened with de ionised water to wipe the dust of a film....
All of my films have been wiped this way and are looking very good...

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 30, 2017, 03:28 PM:

Blimy Robert, I havnt seen that before, now you got me thinking now. all 500+ of my films have been treated using filmguard [Confused]

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 03:50 PM:

Haha, nice sarcasm. I'll stick with IPA, I don't need or want the oily lubrication anyway. My last resort cleaning solution will be Edwal Anti-Stat Film Cleaner if IPA is not desired.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 30, 2017, 03:59 PM:

Hey Robert, no sarcasm intended at all, i genuinely havnt read that before and have been using filmguard for years & reading that link is making me think, should i be using it?And should i be reapplying
every few years?

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 30, 2017, 06:54 PM:

At the end of that article referred to it says

" Kodak cautions against the use of any alcohol as a film cleaner stating that "some types can soften the emulsion, or the base, and can increase the risk of abrasion during the cleaning process". After five years of use the Author has failed to ever experience any such result with Isopropyl Alcohol.

My precious family films date back to 1965 so I'm not going to risk using it.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on July 30, 2017, 07:41 PM:

Of course I won't use cheap products for family treasures but for films you don't care much about, it's acceptable plus the author stated he didn't experience any of that bad effect of IPA.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on July 31, 2017, 04:46 AM:

Be careful about calling IsoPropyl Alcohol IPA, it also means Idia Pale Ale a strong hoppy beer. I wouldn't want to clean my films with that, they's end up a sticky mess.

Also I wouldn't say I've never had any bad effects of IPA (the beer) after a few pints I don't feel too steady. :-)

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on July 31, 2017, 07:45 AM:

Mike
The water damage to my films was not caused by tap water but from being stored in a damp cellar. While I do not dispute what you say about the BFI using ionised water I do not understand the science of it. Ionised water is the same as distilled water I believe. It's just water with impurities removed, but it's still h2o - water. So is it the impurities that cause the damage?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 31, 2017, 11:52 AM:

I agree with Will, early on there. Remember that, while alcohol may be a cheaper way to clean a film, it also is a good way to dry out you're film prints in quick manner, and that really can't be good for you're films. Yes, most film cleaner contain alcohol, but they also combine that with numerous other film preserving chemicals as well. [Smile]

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on July 31, 2017, 01:58 PM:

Just to add 2.22 you could not use tape splices after you had treated the film. They did sell a solvent type product which removed the 2.22 and left the film very clean and dry.

Anyone who bought films from DCR (Dave West) on the Isle Of Wight he used to treat his new films.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 31, 2017, 03:20 PM:

we used 222 for years and i did and do swear by it. I have no idea how much damage i have done to myself using this in a house with not much ventilation. it had deadly fumes. But i do find filmguard to be the way forward. One thing Bill Parsons did say to me a few years back is that all projectors need films to be lubricated and not everyone seems to think this, i only d
say that due to the number of films i have bought second hand that have been bone dry and clearly not cleaned for years.
Even Derann recommended a quick clean with a good cleaner before viewing a brand new print.

Posted by William Olson (Member # 2083) on August 04, 2017, 09:13 AM:

Years ago, I cleaned one of the films I shot on Kodachrome with isopoyl alcohol. It dried out the film and made it very brittle. I only use FilmGuard now.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 04, 2017, 09:33 AM:

In the fifties when we received, in my cinema, brand new 35mm release prints straight from the labs we used to wax the perforations.
Any new ads for insertion in the ad reel were put on their side and a thin amount of vaseline was applied to either side, just enough to penetrate across the perforations. This was in the days when we kept the ad reel, and took out old ads, and put in new ads.

In all my years collecting sub-standard films I have never felt the need to lubricate any; as regard to cleaning, only the most obvious which needed attention were cleaned with a coating from a cloth lightly soaked in isopropyl alcohol.
I have never known colour to be removed from a film in such circumstances.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 04, 2017, 09:39 AM:

222 was great when it was a legal substance to manufacture many years ago, however I still think that it would have been way too strong to have been completely harmless to pasted striped film.

Once a cleaner contains any kind of solvent solution, there is always a risk that some damage could occur to a magnetic striped film that is not laminated.

Nowadays FilmGuard provides us all with a safe and effective cleaner and lubricant to safely clean any film with, no matter what the track consists of.

It is by far the best all round cleaner and lubricant for film that I have ever used and I have prints in my collection first cleaned using FilmGuard by their previous owner that date back to over 20 years since first treatment that still look and sound as good as the day they were made.

There is absolutely no comparison between the way a film runs and sounds while transporting through a projector, between a dry film and a well lubricated one using FilmGuard.

I concur with Bill, that all film should be lubricated prior to projection.

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 04, 2017, 05:10 PM:

Andrew wrote "I have prints in my collection first cleaned using FilmGuard by their previous owner that date back to over 20 years since first treatment that still look and sound as good as the day they were made". Does this mean that one application of FilmGuard should last for many years on films which are rarely projected? I assume that films which are projected regularly might need treating at intervals. How often do you advise, please?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 04, 2017, 05:14 PM:

Will I'm an obsessive perfectionist, meaning if I see even a speck of foreign material on any of my prints while projecting, I clean it in run there and then.
Just that section by reverse projecting and treating with FG & a micro fibre cloth in forwards projection again.

I get it that this behaviour to most, isn't the normal carry on, so based on that I'd say cleaning every 4th to 5th run should be more than sufficient Will. [Wink]

The ones that came to me pre treated with FG were already immaculate but over time and viewings, I have treated them again, as and when necessary.

The beauty with FilmGuard is it simply doesn't seem to matter how often as long as you don't mind paying for another bottle and you dry your prints immediately afterwards.

Never use your PJ in rewind mode for either applying or removing film cleaner/ lubricant.

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 04, 2017, 07:20 PM:

Thanks, Andrew. As you say, never use a projector to apply any film cleaner. I mount a film to be cleaned between the arms of a film editor. I then brush the cleaner on both sides of the film between the spools using an artist's number 2 paint brush. I sandwich the film with a clean piece of cotton material held lightly between my thumb and finger as I hand wind 50' or more through. You can detect any problems with the film as you do so. I sandwich the film again with a clean piece of cloth when I rewind to remove any surplus. One company in the UK offers FilmGuard in 10ml bottles and it goes a long way.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on August 05, 2017, 01:41 AM:

Andrew, i thought i was the only loony around, i tend to be the same with our films for cleaning, looking at my film log i keep the viewing dates as well as viewed dates, if a film hasn't been viewed for over three years i will give it a very light clean even its only been put through a couple of times in years.
using this regularity it is of course vital to keep the film paths and gate clean, (which is a must anyway) as one thing anf cleaner does to is help build dirt up in the gate and rollers. [Wink]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 05, 2017, 04:02 AM:

Yes, branded as FilmShield instead of FilmGuard, it is one and the same substance in case some may not have realized.

I think you meant to say 100ml bottles btw Will.
I cannot see 10ml going TOO far. [Big Grin]

[ August 05, 2017, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on August 07, 2017, 06:32 PM:

From page 1 of this thread...
Robert Lee - that website you linked to was created by a guy who was trolling on the main Film-Tech Forums and got booted. He immediately retaliated by making that site in an attempt to "get back" at me. It is total bs, just like most of what you see on facebook these days. (Just because it is written doesn't in any way make it true.)

From above...
Andrew Woodcock (and everyone else) - see this post...

CLICK HERE

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 07, 2017, 06:47 PM:

Fair points Brad, and I know nothing of Eddie's selling techniques here in the UK except to say he has always treated me personally, very well indeed.

I have to say, being a heavy user of this original product, i always buy in the original quart quantity from official Uk Suppliers,and I am more than happy to do so for a very very long time to come...Officially, in the very same manner as I always have.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on August 07, 2017, 06:50 PM:

@Brad Miller. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 07, 2017, 07:01 PM:

Never mind the 16oz bottle Brad, I just hope you release a 48oz one!

You pays your money, you take your choice! [Big Grin]

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on August 15, 2017, 03:09 PM:

Well Maurice, with that waxing and vaseline, the print would pretty much be lubricated permanently.

Robert, not only is alcohol extremely risky, but will remove pretty much any sort of lubricant on the film surface (oily, waxy, or - ugg- silicone). So what are you doing to replace it?

FilmGuard gets my vote.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on August 15, 2017, 03:13 PM:

I'll probably replace it with filmguard as long as I don't have to wear gloves.

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 15, 2017, 05:32 PM:

Just to confuse matters, I've found that Kodak listed isopropyl alcohol as being a good film cleaner. The problem is that, as said, it will remove any lubricant from the film. I've a film which juddered when first projected due to shrinkage, I believe. After treatment with FilmGuard, it ran through the projector without any problem.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 06:19 PM:

And you're surprised Will, given what has been said over and again here? [Wink]

Whatever peoples sceptical opinions are or are not regarding this substance, as Ronseal once said in their TV ads over here in the UK,..

It does what it says on the tin, time after time. that'll do for me! [Smile]

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 15, 2017, 06:56 PM:

Not surprised at all, Andrew. It's good stuff and a little goes a long way. I'm unsure how often it should be applied though. Does it evaporate on treated films eventually and need a re-application? If so, how often? I've thinking about our precious treated family films.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 07:02 PM:

From my own experiences Will, if your films are scratch free (base scratches), it needn't be applied often at all as one thorough clean suffices, but for someone like me with an extremely critical eye so far as commercial prints are concerned, up until now I have it at the ready for any given moment to ensure the prints can be projected in their most pristine condition.

It works for me anyhow, otherwise I may have totally gone digital by now sadly.

Glad I haven't and glad therefore I discovered the benefits of FG and other things exactly when I did. [Smile]

When I came back to the hobby initially, I was only dipping my toe in the water by re living prints such as Marathon Man, Grease, Carrie & Dressed To Kill, now i am sat on a fairly large collection of LPP or Agfa low fade prints!

If it wasn't for the two variables I speak of, none of this would ever have materialized. Therefore I am eternally grateful to all of the factors that brought this sheer huge amount of pleasure and lifelong ambition to fruition without all of those nasty unpleasantries I associated this hobby with in the past.

Super 8mm Film Collecting,really can be relatively, hassle free I have learned! [Wink]

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on August 15, 2017, 07:36 PM:

Many thanks, Andrew. No scratches and no colour fade after 50 years and more storage in various cupboards. I've digitised the films now but the original films are as fresh as when they were first shown. Kodak 8mm stock.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 15, 2017, 07:39 PM:

Good Job Will! [Wink]

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